Official Toyota Prius PHEV thread

[adric22]

A Leaf on the highway going 60mph gets about 4 miles per kWh, so 6.5 is good for 26 miles. Now the Prius on the highway in all-electric isn't quite as good due to the way the PSD (Power Split Device) transaxle is built, so I find real-world, I get 20 miles, but in the city on surface roads I can easily get 40 without even trying. Most Leaf drivers see 6 miles per kWh in these scenarios, which would mean 6.5kWh is good for 39 miles, but the Regen in the Prius works better (less friction waste). I've had 60 mile experiences more than once!

That's pretty impressive. I'm sad that there aren't any really good conversion kits like this available for the Prius at a reasonable cost. There are so many used Priuses out there, it would be awesome if somebody could buy one for $10,000, put another $7,000 in for a kit like that, and have something that competes with the Chevy Volt in capability for around $17,000. Even the Gen-1 Prius, which can be had for $5,000 these days, would be great.

 

[Ingineer]

A Leaf on the highway going 60mph gets about 4 miles per kWh, so 6.5 is good for 26 miles. Now the Prius on the highway in all-electric isn't quite as good due to the way the PSD (Power Split Device) transaxle is built, so I find real-world, I get 20 miles, but in the city on surface roads I can easily get 40 without even trying. Most Leaf drivers see 6 miles per kWh in these scenarios, which would mean 6.5kWh is good for 39 miles, but the Regen in the Prius works better (less friction waste). I've had 60 mile experiences more than once!

That's pretty impressive. I'm sad that there aren't any really good conversion kits like this available for the Prius at a reasonable cost. There are so many used Priuses out there, it would be awesome if somebody could buy one for $10,000, put another $7,000 in for a kit like that, and have something that competes with the Chevy Volt in capability for around $17,000. Even the Gen-1 Prius, which can be had for $5,000 these days, would be great.

With falling battery prices and larger formats this is becoming possible. I used the awesome A123 26650's which were probably the best available at the time. Problem is assembling 864 of them into a pack is a massively labor intense operation!

-Phil

 

[hill]

My volt was Volt 43, less fed and state incentives net cost was just under 30K. Hybrid Malibu is 26K, so difference is 4K.
I'm averaging $.025/mile. A 30mpg malibu hybrid would be about $.075/mile
The difference is $.05 so for 4K that is only 80Kmiles, quite a few miles shy of your million. ....................snip

Wow! .... 2¢ a mile!?! That's amazing! ... especially considering electricity costs about 10¢ per kWh in parts of Colorado. So, that must mean you're getting over 5 miles/kWh at the wall ... which is especially amazing considering on how heavy the car is. That goes to show you ... it turns on how one adds the #'s. For example, some people can't use the Fed Credit when they fall under IRS's AMT. That'd mean you need to amortize another $7,500. Then there's the 70 mile barrier:

http://www.plugincars.com/prius-plug-versus-volt-which-costs-less-drive-108739.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

".... Assuming a gas price of $3.50 and electricity at 11 cents per kilowatt-hour, the Volt’s bigger battery makes it cheaper to operate as long as you drive 70 miles or less between charges. At distances of greater than 70 miles, the Prius PHEVs’ greater fuel economy as a hybrid makes it cheaper to operate. ...."

So if ANY driver's trips are 70 miles a day - the ROI wouldn't be a million miles ... it wouldn't even happen at a hunded million. You'd do best, just buying a Gen II Prius. That said - if you are doing under 70 miles average daily trips ... you'd do just fine in the Volt.

 

[astrorob]

as far as I can tell, the federal plug-in tax credits are 100% amt proof.

 

[planet4ever]

What AMT gets you on is the (now expired) EVSE credit, not the up to $7,500 EV credit. The EV credit is just limited by your battery size and your total tax liability. i.e. you can't get back more than the total you paid, including payroll deductions, etc. And you can't carry anything over to another year.

Ray

 

[DrInnovation]

My volt was Volt 43, less fed and state incentives net cost was just under 30K. Hybrid Malibu is 26K, so difference is 4K.
I'm averaging $.025/mile. A 30mpg malibu hybrid would be about $.075/mile
The difference is $.05 so for 4K that is only 80Kmiles, quite a few miles shy of your million. ....................snip

Wow! .... 2¢ a mile!?! That's amazing! ... especially considering electricity costs about 10¢ per kWh in parts of Colorado. So, that must mean you're getting over 5 miles/kWh at the wall ... which is especially amazing considering on how heavy the car is. That goes to show you ... it turns on how one adds the #'s. For example, some people can't use the Fed Credit when they fall under IRS's AMT. That'd mean you need to amortize another $7,500. Then there's the 70 mile barrier:

http://www.plugincars.com/prius-plug-versus-volt-which-costs-less-drive-108739.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

".... Assuming a gas price of $3.50 and electricity at 11 cents per kilowatt-hour, the Volt’s bigger battery makes it cheaper to operate as long as you drive 70 miles or less between charges. At distances of greater than 70 miles, the Prius PHEVs’ greater fuel economy as a hybrid makes it cheaper to operate. ...."

So if ANY driver's trips are 70 miles a day - the ROI wouldn't be a million miles ... it wouldn't even happen at a hunded million. You'd do best, just buying a Gen II Prius. That said - if you are doing under 70 miles average daily trips ... you'd do just fine in the Volt.

Off peak for me is $.049 raw.. net with taxes and stuff between .06 an 07.
My fuel costs are .025 not .02 (that is a 25% difference).

Lots of Volt owners do more than 70 miles a day on all electric, which is easy if you have a charger at work. I have multiple days over 70, but rarely drive that much where I can charge.

Yes it will take years before I'll recover costs compared to a used prius. then again I could have kept my 17 year old honda for another decade and been even cheap. i did not buy it to save money, i bought it to enjoy, something I'd not do in a Prius and definitely not in a Malibu (which what the post was responding to).

 

[hill]

as far as I can tell, the federal plug-in tax credits are 100% amt proof.

ok ... loosing the $7,500 credit vis a vis AMT - bad example ... my bad. (sigh) so, you make 6 figures ... you plan your taxes well, and thus owe no tax. BAM your PHEV cost just went up $7,500. You try to carry the credit forward to next year. Can't. again ... BAM ... same thing. The POINT ... the cost (to EVERYONE ) of the PHEV not being guaranteed to drop by a $7,500 'credit'. That was the point.

. . . . . . . . . . . snip . . . . . . . . Off peak for me is $.049 raw.. net with taxes and stuff between .06 an 07.
My fuel costs are .025 not .02 (that is a 25% difference).

Call me wacky ... but since 100 pennies have devalued down to about 1 penny over that last 100 years ... and 1/4 of a penny having now purchase power of only 1/100 of its former value ... and since rounding a quarter of a penny down is a generally accepted process on money ... I went crazy and rounded down. Sorry.
:lol:

 

[astrorob]

as far as I can tell, the federal plug-in tax credits are 100% amt proof.

ok ... loosing the $7,500 credit vis a vis AMT - bad example ... my bad. (sigh) so, you make 6 figures ... you plan your taxes well, and thus owe no tax. BAM your PHEV cost just went up $7,500. You try to carry the credit forward to next year. Can't. again ... BAM ... same thing. The POINT ... the cost (to EVERYONE ) of the PHEV not being guaranteed to drop by a $7,500 'credit'. That was the point.

even with all the tax loopholes and such that exist, i really think you will be hard pressed to find someone with who had gross income of $100,000 and less than $7,500 tax liability.

it's really simple to find out if you will get the tax credit. did you pay taxes last year? is this year similar to last year? if you paid more than $7500 last year, then this year you'll probably get the whole credit. if you paid between $0 and $7500 last year, then your PHEV tax credit will likely be whatever that amount was. this tax credit will reduce your tax liability to $0, but not below that. meaning, if you owed $6500 in taxes, the feds are not going to send you a check for $1000.

i think you might be thinking that if you did not have to write a check to the IRS and send it with your 1040, then you don't qualify for the tax credit. that's not ture. having to write a check at tax time is not the definition of "tax liability". the definition of "tax liability" is your final amount of taxes that you owe. to figure out how big of a check you have to write, you subtract your withholding from your total tax liability.

 

[DrInnovation]

SNIP

. . . . . . . . . . . snip . . . . . . . . Off peak for me is $.049 raw.. net with taxes and stuff between .06 an 07.
My fuel costs are .025 not .02 (that is a 25% difference).

Call me wacky ... but since 100 pennies have devalued down to about 1 penny over that last 100 years ... and 1/4 of a penny having now purchase power of only 1/100 of its former value ... and since rounding a quarter of a penny down is a generally accepted process on money ... I went crazy and rounded down. Sorry.
:lol:

No problem.. I was just explaining why I don't actually need to get 5m/kw.. Even if I paid .10/kw I would only need to get 4 (at .025) vs 5 at .02. But since I pay less, I don't even need to get to 4.. I average about 3.26miles/kWh-from-wall. A full charge costs me about $.83, and I get 44-45miles in fair weather and 40 most of the winter.

 

[hill]

as far as I can tell, the federal plug-in tax credits are 100% amt proof.

ok ... loosing the $7,500 credit vis a vis AMT - bad example ... my bad. (sigh) so, you make 6 figures ... you plan your taxes well, and thus owe no tax. BAM your PHEV cost just went up $7,500. You try to carry the credit forward to next year. Can't. again ... BAM ... same thing. The POINT ... the cost (to EVERYONE ) of the PHEV not being guaranteed to drop by a $7,500 'credit'. That was the point.

even with all the tax loopholes and such that exist, i really think you will be hard pressed to find someone with who had gross income of $100,000 and less than $7,500 tax liability.

it's really simple to find out if you will get the tax credit. did you pay taxes last year? is this year similar to last year? if you paid more than $7500 last year, then this year you'll probably get the whole credit. if you paid between $0 and $7500 last year, then your PHEV tax credit will likely be whatever that amount was. this tax credit will reduce your tax liability to $0, but not below that. meaning, if you owed $6500 in taxes, the feds are not going to send you a check for $1000.

i think you might be thinking that if you did not have to write a check to the IRS and send it with your 1040, then you don't qualify for the tax credit. that's not ture. having to write a check at tax time is not the definition of "tax liability". the definition of "tax liability" is your final amount of taxes that you owe. to figure out how big of a check you have to write, you subtract your withholding from your total tax liability.

No - for us, we paid in a 5 figure dollar amount (quarterly's & payroll), and we got it all back. If our CPA had work our situation properly, he'd have given us advise that would have allowed us to captue the $7,500 credit ... that simple. For example, having owed no taxes, we could have converted an IRA over to a roth ... and thus incurred a $7,500 liability. How hard would it have been to let us know?!? Our CPA simply screwed up. The closest way we can recover the credit now, is sell our 2011 Leaf (for what ever depreciation it has suffered), and buy the 2013 when it comes out ... then we can plan accordingly.

 

[astrorob]

No - for us, we paid in a 5 figure dollar amount (quarterly's & payroll), and we got it all back. If our CPA had work our situation properly, he'd have given us advise that would have allowed us to captue the $7,500 credit ... that simple. For example, having owed no taxes, we could have converted an IRA over to a roth ... and thus incurred a $7,500 liability. How hard would it have been to let us know?!? Our CPA simply screwed up. The closest way we can recover the credit now, is sell our 2011 Leaf (for what ever depreciation it has suffered), and buy the 2013 when it comes out ... then we can plan accordingly.

quite frankly i think your situation is special - you took some huge loss or something. it's not exactly normal to incur 0 tax liability on $100k+ in income. for the overwhelming majority of people it should be straightforward to figure out if the credit will apply. but as you said, your CPA screwed up, so i guess it's time to find a new CPA.

but your point is valid, since most likely a lot of people buying these toys have high incomes and could have weird tax situations. this is probably the reason they made the new credit AMT-proof. it's not much of an incentive to the target audience if they can't take the credit!

that would have been a great way to convert a regular IRA to a roth ira though!

 

[RegGuheert]

Well, with a smaller battery they will have to use higher power cells since they will be pushed harder.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately and wondering if Toyota will experience capacity life issues on the PiP versus the EVs with larger batteries.

Here are some numbers for comparison's sake (please feel free to correct them if they are wrong):

Note: I am calculating charging Rate as Usable Cap./(Capacity * Time)

Car  | Capacity | Usable Cap. | L1 Time | L1 Rate |  L2 Time | L2 Rate | QC Time | QC Rate
————————————————————————————————————————————————————
LEAF | 24.0 kWh |   21.5 kWh  | 21 hrs. |  C/23.4 | 7.0 hrs. |  C/7.8  | 0.5 hr. |  1.8C
Volt | 16.0 kWh |   10.4 kWh  | 12 hrs. |  C/18.5 | 3.0 hrs. |  C/4.6  |   N/A   |   N/A
FFE  | 23.0 kWh |   21.0 kWh  | 20 hrs. |  C/21.9 | 4.0 hrs. |  C/4.4  |   N/A   |   N/A
PiP  |  4.4 kWh |    2.8 kWh  |  4 hrs. |  C/6.3  | 1.5 hrs. |  C/2.4  |   N/A   |   N/A

Looking at the table, the QC on the LEAF is, by far, the highest charging rate in the bunch, even though the LEAF has no active battery cooling system. But I also notice that L1 charging of a Prius is at a higher rate than L2 charging on the current LEAF and is approaching the L2 charging on the Volt and FFE, which DO have active battery cooling. At L2, the PiP is being charged at nearly double the rate of the FFE and Volt and at about 1/4 the rate of a LEAF QC.

I didn't include discharge rates, but those are also interesting. It seems you can fully discharge the PiP battery at nearly a 6C rate. The maximum discharge rate on the LEAF is about 3.3C, but good luck maintaining that rate for very long! Normal discharge rate for a LEAF would be less than 1C.

As drees has said, they certainly will have designed in a higher-power battery technology, but is it really THAT much higher? I guess I just feel that the PiP battery is getting MUCH more abuse than those in any of the other electric cars on the road, so I will suggest that perhaps it will experience premature capacity degradation, particularly in places like Phoenix where we are starting to see some changes in LEAF batteries already.

What do you think?

Edit: Changed the table and verbiage to reflect a usable capacity on the PiP of 2.8 kWh. Thanks, astrorob!

Edit 2: Changed the table to code format and adjusted spaces. Thanks, scottf2000!

 

[astrorob]

I'm pretty sure the usable capacity of the PIP is 2.7 or 2.8kwh. at full the scan gauge reports 85.4% and I've never seen less than 22% when the ice finally kicks in.

 

[scottf200]

I'm pretty sure the usable capacity of the PIP is 2.7 or 2.8kwh. at full the scan gauge reports 85.4% and I've never seen less than 22% when the ice finally kicks in.

Interesting as the Volt use ~22% to ~87% as well . Hmm...

 

[RegGuheert]

I'm pretty sure the usable capacity of the PIP is 2.7 or 2.8kwh. at full the scan gauge reports 85.4% and I've never seen less than 22% when the ice finally kicks in.

Thanks! I updated the table and verbiage to use 2.8 kWh.

Interesting as the Volt use ~22% to ~87% as well

O.K. So the numbers for the Volt look right? (10.4/16=65%)

 

[scottf200]

Interesting as the Volt use ~22% to ~87% as well

O.K. So the numbers for the Volt look right? (10.4/16=65%)

suggest you use the code format (monospace font).

Car | Capacity | Usable Cap. | L1 Time | L1 Rate | L2 Time | L2 Rate | QC Time | QC Rate
————————————————————————————————————————————————————
LEAF | 24 kWh  | 21.5 kWh  | 21 hrs. | C/23.4 | 7 hrs. | C/7.8 | 0.5 hr. | 1.8C
Volt | 16 kWh  | 10.4 kWh  | 10 hrs. | C/18.5 | 4 hrs. | C/4.6 | N/A | N/A
FFE  | 23 kWh  | 21 kWh    | 20 hrs. | C/21.9 | 4 hrs. | C/4.4 | N/A | N/A
PiP  | 4.4 kWh | 2.8 kWh   | 4 hrs.  | C/6.3 | 1.5 hrs.| C/2.4 | N/A | N/A

From the Official Volt FAQ on the Chevrolet website it is ~10 for L1/120v and ~4 for L2/240v. (I've never seen 4 tho).
http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car/faq/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Q. How long does Volt take to charge?
A. Using a 120V plug outlet, in about ten hours, depending on the climate, you'll have a fully charged Volt waiting for you, ready to go. You can also install a 240V charge station, which can charge Volt in as little as four hours. In very hot (95° F) or cold temperatures (25° F), charging times and energy usage will increase when using the 120V portable cord set. A 240V Charging Station is strongly recommended for consumers who plan to charge in extreme weather conditions (over 95° F or below 20° F) on a regular basis.

From my 30 day numbers you can see I charge at a max of 3.5 hrs on 240v. There are graphs and such on this standard owner Chevrolet Volt website but they allow you to download the info as well for playing.
MyVolt.COM charging details for last 30 days using download option

 

[RegGuheert]

suggest you use the code format (monospace font).

Thanks! I did that and adjusted the widths.

From my 30 day numbers you can see I charge at a max of 3.5 hrs on 240v. There are graphs and such on this standard owner Chevrolet Volt website but they allow you to download the info as well for playing.

Thanks! I left that at 4 hours since it seems Nissan also overestimates charge times. I'm not sure why. In any case, it seems the actual charge rates may be a bit higher than shown in the chart across the board.

 

[DrInnovation]

Charge times are also a function of temps. When its hot outside the car will taper off and take a bit longer to charge. In a Volt it will also use a bit of charging power to cool the system.

These are useful, though I actually think the number of charge cycles as well usage/regen rates may have more interesting implications in the PiP as well where they users tend to drive a lot on HV miles and often charge more per day (to get more EV miles). From what I read on PC, there are many people doing multiple charges per day.. and an air-cooled charge in midday hot temps will be more damaging..

But still, I don't see the PiP charging, as being that bad. Not nearly as as bad as charging to 100%, as seen on some of the Leafs.

The real problem with the PiP is that the battery is so small its only having a small impact. The PiPs on fuelly are averaging 69mpg overall, including the kWh. And since the majority are probably Prius owners, its only a small reduction in gas used. Seems many are being sold just so they can drive the HOV lanes (in gas mode of course).

 

[mitch672]

The battery is having a large impact on my gas usage, I drove 625 miles in the last 2 weeks, on less than 5 gallons of gas (and 76KWH of electricity). I know that's not impressive to Leaf owners, but it impressed me, I used to gas up weekly, usually 6-7 gallons each week, I am now using about 1/3-1/2 of that, I charge 2 or 3 times a day (minimum twice on the commute days). Most of my 15 mile 1 way commute is in EV, it depends mainly on the commute speed, which is often stop and go on the way in.

BTW, the L1 recharge from empty at 70 degrees is less than 3 hours, L2 runs 90 minutes or less most of the time. I recharge L1 at work, L2 at home.

 

[RegGuheert]

These are useful, though I actually think the number of charge cycles as well usage/regen rates may have more interesting implications in the PiP as well where they users tend to drive a lot on HV miles and often charge more per day (to get more EV miles). From what I read on PC, there are many people doing multiple charges per day.. and an air-cooled charge in midday hot temps will be more damaging..

...I charge 2 or 3 times a day (minimum twice on the commute days).

Wow! Multiple recharges per day! I hadn't even thought of that! Of course some are doing that with the LEAF, but not many.

Let's take a 24-mile one-way commute and compare the LEAF with the PiP. I picked that distance as an approximately 65% average discharge for the LEAF each day to match one discharge for the PiP. Assuming the PiP owner charges using L1 at work and the LEAF owner does not charge at work, you get the following each day:

LEAF:
- C/7.8 65% charge at night (cooler temps)
- C/2 65% discharge during the day

PiP:
- C/2.4 65% charge at night (cooler temps)
- 3C 65% discharge during the day
- C/4.7 65% charge during the day
- 3C 65% discharge during the day

Assumption: Commute speed is around 40 MPH.

Results:
- PiP receives twice as many discharges per day at 6X the rate of the LEAF
- PiP receives twice as many charges per day, 1 at ~1.5X the rate and the other at ~3X the rate

If you make the comparison on a shorter commute, like 10 miles, the distinction is even greater.

About the only thing I can think of to extend the life of the PiP battery would be to use L1 at home instead of L2, but that would mean either buying two or schlepping one back and forth.

I guess the saving grace in all of this is that if the PiP battery fails under warranty, it will be replaced, possibly with a nice upgrade. Even outside of the warranty period, the PiP battery should be much more affordable than the LEAF battery.