Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

[thankyouOB]

Tesla has solved this issue by providing 2 DTE indicators. One is based on recent driving patterns. One is based n "ideal" miles - which is driving 55 mph in good road conditions.

Just so we don't overlook what Nisan DO provide us, there are two DTE estimates on the LEAF. Just like Tesla You have to know where to look.

Press the blue button on the steering wheel and you get the GOM estimate as the 'high' number. (It's always hopelessly optimistic) and a lower number which is more realistic (sometimes marginally pessimistic).

I wish I had the choice of which number the GOM shows. Sure, show the optimistic number as default to support your marketing efforts for test drives, but give me the driver the ability to see the lower number directly on the dash as an option under my control so I don't have to continually press the blue button to check on it.

Edit: What I would like to see added is the ability prior to setting off on a trip to indicate how I expect to drive such that the DTE estimate is based on my projections about the route planned rather than be based on what I did yesterday. This could be automated through a CarWings route planning/send to vehicle option.

yes, i would like to see a readout -- once you put in a route or a miles for trip -- that cks battery charge and tells you what m/kwh you need to sustain to get there.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

its easy to understand the decision process from Nissan when they put in the GOM, the battery bars, etc. its simplified for the masses. that is great and nearly all cars that use different technology have the same thing.

But many also have several other data screens that can be used to give much more techie information and that is what Nissan should offer us. bury it the menus if that makes you feel comfortable Nissan!! i dont care. i will dig it up and anyone who wants that info will too.

But give us the choice to determine what we look at. Give us a basic two liner explaining what we are looking at and then leave the rest to us.

 

[DaveEV]

BUT I don't accept the inequality. Take a regular ICE car (like a Nissan Versa). Lets say the average life of the engine is 100,000 miles. If I drive 20,000 miles a year the engine only last 5 years, but that is my fault for driving so much. If someone else drives 10,000 a year it last 10 years. It doesn't matter if that person lives in Seattle, Phoenix, Dallas, New York, or Tampa Bay. If I drive 10,000 a year it will have about equal wear where ever I live.

With or without a TMS, you are going to see varying rates of degradation depending on your climate. You can't beat physics, unless you are willing to spend money (and additional energy) trying to keep the battery of each car at the same temperature all the time.

So, I completely accept the inequality. But the problem is that Nissan has not told us how much inequality is expected. In hindsight, we all should have listened to the naysayers 2-3 years ago who said that launching without TMS in Arizona is crazy instead of buying into Nissan's marketing spiel and assuming that they wouldn't be launching in AZ unless they were confident that the batteries would behave similarly to the rest of the market.

If Nissan had said this: assuming 12k mi / year, Los Angeles LEAFs will on average hit 80% after 4 years, Seattle LEAFs will hit 80% after 8 years and Arizona LEAFs will hit 80% after 2 years - how many AZ LEAFs would have failed to sell? But how many more Seattle LEAFs would have sold?

I know many people want a TMS in the Leaf, but some (especially up north) don't because of the additional cost. Would it be difficult from a manufacturing point to offer both? Maybe an option when you purchase the vehicle? So people unconcered or with very low Nissan Leaf Years (tm) can decided to forgo the additional cost and people in Arizona could decide it is important enough, just like A/C!

A few have mentioned this earlier, but I'll reiterate. The real issue is that especially for AZ owners, they might have 60 mi real-world range (some freeway driving, AC use and leaving 15 mi buffer) when the car is new. This is sufficient for many people.

But now you lose 20% capacity in a year - you're down to under 50 miles. Another couple years and you're down 30% you're barely over 40 miles.

While you're "only" down a bit more than 20-30% range (48mi/60mi, 42mi/60mi), the problem is that when the car was new, you used to be able to travel 25%-40% (60mi/48mi, 60mi/42mi) which makes the loss of range feel MUCH worse.

TMS would help for sure - but so would adding another 25% capacity. How difficult would it be to make TMS an option? Hard to say - I'd venture to guess that the bulk of the cost is in the engineering of the TMS - an additional coolant loop probably doesn't cost much to add. And the TMS would still be useful even in mild climates during QC sessions and quite possibly would allow for faster rates of QC and certainly much less heat buildup when one does more than 1 QC / day.

Personally - I think that a combination of both (more capacity and air-based TMS to reduce the rate of capacity loss everywhere outside of Seattle) is required to really boost sales.

 

[thankyouOB]

knowing battery replacement costs would remove a huge question mark.

as GRA always says: but you didnt include replacing the battery in your cost of ownership calculations.

 

[Hawk0630]

This is Jeff Kuhlman of Nissan (somewhere in mynissanleaf.com referred to as the “lurking Nissan guy”). I'm back in the forum and, as promised, I'm bringing with me a link to the video that I discussed in my last post.

I was in New York City earlier this week. I suspect many of you read one of the articles that was generated out of a roundtable interview with Andy Palmer. Andy was in NYC to participate in an event where Nissan was recognized by InterBrand as one of the 100 most valuable brands in the world, and just prior to that event we held the media session. I invited Chelsea Sexton to participate in that media session -- she was quoted in a number of the articles, and following the interview Chelsea and Andy sat down for the discussion documented at this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1tfX7fRWPI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

Thanks again for your patience. The video runs a little long. Typically when we shoot video for the web we aim for single-digit minutes in duration. This is not that. My suggestion to Andy and Chelsea was 5 - 7 minutes. They had a good discussion and it lasts over 16 minutes. It may not earn an Emmy or Oscar, but it's a good conversation. Let me know if it was worth the wait.

I'd like to think that you will see that we are focused on being transparent, improving our customer service, and demonstrating our commitment to you as early adopter owners. As I've seen many times in my career, it’s not easy being out front with a new technology. Since spending time in the mynissanleaf.com forum, I've come to recognize your passion surrounding EVs and the Leaf, in particular. I hope that this video offers additional context; I understand, and I believe Andy would agree, that it is a first step in a dialogue.

I look forward to your comments. I saw that Volusiano took me to task for not being in the forum frequently. I appreciate your invitation to participate, but I'm not going to comment on every conversation. I do look at the forum every day ... except last Sunday. It was my wife's birthday and since I was only in town for 26 hours, I figured that I could take one day off. But be assured, I do monitor the forum closely. I invite you to send me a direct message at any time.

- Jeff

 

[thankyouOB]

thanks for the HT on "lurking nissan man."
i appreciate your lurking and your willingness to take part. we are passionate and committed to our LEAFs, or most of us are, anyway.

we very much appreciate nissan's commitment to EVs. we are committed too, and most of us showed that by putting a bet down on the LEAF with a nice bundle of cash.
as i said at a focus group 6 months ago: "i took a leap with the LEAF and bet that it would be as good as it seemed. i knew there was always the possibility that i would look back and go - you were a dummy, man.
so far, that is not the case; not by a long shot.

----
and yes, after listening to the video.
i -- and others -- do want a battery price, installed.
and i do for all the reasons i have stated previously; summed up as, what do i do when my range is limited so i cant do my daily 50-mile roundtrip commute or the once weekly 65-mile roundtrip to the theatre in my LEAF.

thank you for the video. i am astounded, simply astounded, that nissan never thought people would seek to replace the battery to maintain optimum range as it degraded. i am particularly amazed because the warranty is so carefully written to exclude nissan responsibility for range loss.

 

[mdh]

I greatly appreciated the youtube video. This community can be a great asset to Nissan.

This is Jeff Kuhlman of Nissan (somewhere in mynissanleaf.com referred to as the “lurking Nissan guy”). I'm back in the forum and, as promised, I'm bringing with me a link to the video that I discussed in my last post.

I was in New York City earlier this week. I suspect many of you read one of the articles that was generated out of a roundtable interview with Andy Palmer. Andy was in NYC to participate in an event where Nissan was recognized by InterBrand as one of the 100 most valuable brands in the world, and just prior to that event we held the media session. I invited Chelsea Sexton to participate in that media session -- she was quoted in a number of the articles, and following the interview Chelsea and Andy sat down for the discussion documented at this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1tfX7fRWPI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

Thanks again for your patience. The video runs a little long. Typically when we shoot video for the web we aim for single-digit minutes in duration. This is not that. My suggestion to Andy and Chelsea was 5 - 7 minutes. They had a good discussion and it lasts over 16 minutes. It may not earn an Emmy or Oscar, but it's a good conversation. Let me know if it was worth the wait.

I'd like to think that you will see that we are focused on being transparent, improving our customer service, and demonstrating our commitment to you as early adopter owners. As I've seen many times in my career, it’s not easy being out front with a new technology. Since spending time in the mynissanleaf.com forum, I've come to recognize your passion surrounding EVs and the Leaf, in particular. I hope that this video offers additional context; I understand, and I believe Andy would agree, that it is a first step in a dialogue.

I look forward to your comments. I saw that Volusiano took me to task for not being in the forum frequently. I appreciate your invitation to participate, but I'm not going to comment on every conversation. I do look at the forum every day ... except last Sunday. It was my wife's birthday and since I was only in town for 26 hours, I figured that I could take one day off. But be assured, I do monitor the forum closely. I invite you to send me a direct message at any time.

- Jeff

 

[JRP3]

thank you for the video. i am astounded, simply astounded, that nissan never thought people would seek to replace the battery to maintain optimum range as it degraded.

Agree 100%. In all of automotive history I doubt there is a single vehicle component that some customer at some time didn't want to replace, including spending thousands on an engine or transmission for a vehicle they really liked. Why would Nissan not expect customers to do the same with the pack? Also with the expected longevity of the other EV components and the expected improvements in the future of battery chemistry the value proposition of an EV is increased by the potential to replace the pack at some point and have a like new or even better than new vehicle. Since most packs are not expected to provide full range for the life of the vehicle replacing a pack at some point should be a no brainer, until pack life outlasts vehicle life.
Also disappointing is the implication that the 2013 LEAF will be no better than the current one and no cheaper. If customers don't see prices dropping and range increasing EV's can't move forward.

 

[JPWhite]

i am astounded, simply astounded, that nissan never thought people would seek to replace the battery to maintain optimum range as it degraded.

Nissan held a test drive event in early 2011 in Nashville which I attended. I was converted from a person who had an academic interest in EV's to one who fell in love with the LEAF (and subsequently purchased the vehicle). It's a phenomenal vehicle. During that event the number one question I heard was , "but how much is a replacement battery". We were told they 'didn't know', 'they' being the staff running the event.

Given that this question came up at test drive events prior to the vehicle launch, I am astounded that they are astounded. Clearly everyone instinctively knows when you have a battery in a device at some point it needs replacing.

I take from the interview with Andy Pandy, that some forum members assumption of $5,000 is at this point an unsubstantiated cost of replacement.Could be higher could be lower, Andy was clear that this information isn't known.

I was also interested that Andy expressed the expectation from Nissan that the majority of customers would lease leaving Nissan carrying the burden of the battery technology durability. I've read numbers as high as 70% of customers buying vs leasing. If this is true (and it may not be) then Nissan seriously misunderstood the customers they were selling to. Early adopters aren't typical customers either in their financing decisions nor their OCD like tracking of any and all vehicle characteristics.

Marketing 101. Understand your customer. Hint: We're a weird bunch.

 

[mwalsh]

I take from the interview with Andy Pandy....

You're not a British ex-pat too are you, JPW?

 

[JRP3]

Apparently they were unaware of the aversion to leasing an EV after most of the last round of EV's were repossessed and crushed, against the will of customers.

 

[TonyWilliams]

This is Jeff Kuhlman of Nissan (somewhere in mynissanleaf.com referred to as the “lurking Nissan guy”). I'm back in the forum and, as promised, I'm bringing with me a link to the video that I discussed in my last post.

Thanks again for your patience. The video runs a little long. Typically when we shoot video for the web we aim for single-digit minutes in duration. .... I believe Andy would agree, that it is a first step in a dialogue.

- Jeff

I think it's a great step. Looking forward to the battery price (new, reconditioned, core charge, labor hours paid -->> so the dealer doesn't rip us off with labor).

Nobody will complain about video length, now or in the future; ZERO.

 

[Nubo]

...
I look forward to your comments. I saw that Volusiano took me to task for not being in the forum frequently. I appreciate your invitation to participate, but I'm not going to comment on every conversation. I do look at the forum every day ... except last Sunday. It was my wife's birthday and since I was only in town for 26 hours, I figured that I could take one day off. But be assured, I do monitor the forum closely. I invite you to send me a direct message at any time.

- Jeff

Thanks Jeff, glad to see the new efforts at communication starting to take shape.

One thing I would like from Nissan is more details on the 4 battery-life factors that Andy discussed. They all make sense, but as a LEAF owner there is no specificity that I can use to make rational decisions. For example, for my commute route I can take mostly freeway with a couple miles of side roads, or I can take mostly side roads with a couple miles of freeway. Andy says freeway driving will age the battery faster. But unless I know to what degree, I have no good basis for deciding on the slow or the fast route to work. Is the improvement worth the extra time? I have no way to judge. Since Nissan does seem to have a massive collection of data points perhaps they cold share some of that knowledge with the owners who would love to put it to practical use.

 

[JPWhite]

I take from the interview with Andy Pandy....

You're not a British ex-pat too are you, JPW?

Dag Nab it!! You routed me out!! Here's my video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_fx8ASV6Hs

Been here a short 21 years.

 

[QueenBee]

Andy expressed the expectation from Nissan that the majority of customers would lease leaving Nissan carrying the burden of the battery technology durability. I've read numbers as high as 70% of customers buying vs leasing.

His logic is flawed though since the length of the lease does not cover the life of the vehicle so while Nissan takes the initial burden once the lease is over either the original owner who buys the car or the next owner take on the rest of the risk. For Nissan to actually take on the risk of battery capacity they need to offer a real capacity warranty.

I'm not at all convinced that there is a US privacy law that prohibits the LEAF from sending whatever data it sends back without that warning everytime. I would like this issue to be pressed resulting in an actual response that provides a legal analysis of the issue. If lo-jack, my cell phone, and OnStar can all send GPS coordinates without me consenting every time I turn them on then either they are leaving themselves open to liability or Nissan's assessment is wrong. I would like further in depth clarification on this.

I think Nissan needs to seriously consider providing the raw number for SOC and capacity. It would go a long way in providing accurate feedback to owners concerned about their packs. If there is a reason for not having this then make the case to us. After seeing that my battery loss is less than a couple to a few percent after a year and 10,000 miles I am very pleased. Sure this might be too variable to display right on the dash but forcing consumers to build custom devices to read CANBus messes for this information is not the solution.

I would like to see Nissan respond properly to saintyohann's issue and provide us and them an explanation for how the issue got this far.

I think the comments from Jeff and this video are an amazing first set of steps in fixing our relationship but I don't expect Chelsea to be content with the answers that Andy provided. We are going to need a lot more technical information and concrete answers. I have very high expectations of Nissan and am optimistic that Nissan can start meeting them.

 

[Boomer23]

I take from the interview with Andy Pandy....

You're not a British ex-pat too are you, JPW?

Dag Nab it!! You routed me out!! Here's my video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_fx8ASV6Hs

Been here a short 21 years.

I'm stunned that Andy Pandy was still playing on British TV when you two were small. I left Blighty in 1957 and the 4pm children's hour was my only TV fare. Andy Pandy, The Woodentops, Bill and Ben the Flower Pot Men, and Story Lady were on once a week each, and I used to try to get home from school to see them. I think that there was one more show to round out the M-F schedule, but I can't remember what it was. Anyway, I'm shocked that these shows continued through your youth as well. Maybe British TV went straight from Andy Pandy to Monty Python in one shocking step.

And now, back to your regular programme.

 

[Nubo]

...I'm not at all convinced that there is a US privacy law that prohibits the LEAF from sending whatever data it sends back without that warning everytime. ...

And even it there is, I'd seriously doubt that the law would prohibit giving the owner the option to semi-permanently opt-out via "settings". So if Nissan hate it as much as we do, there would seem to be a clear path.

 

[surfingslovak]

And even it there is, I'd seriously doubt that the law would prohibit giving the owner the option to semi-permanently opt-out via "settings". So if Nissan hate it as much as we do, there would seem to be a clear path.

There is an CarWings opt-in/opt-out screen buried somewhere in the center console menu. The funny thing is, if you opt out, no data is transmitted to Nissan, at least from what I could tell, but you still get the press "OK" prompt :roll:

 

[hill]

My only issue with the video was that Chelsea didn't press the traction pack replacement cost issue. Nissan's stance is that they may only anticipate replacing 20 30 40 or 50 % percent of the modules. So Nissan knows what it cost to replace 10 percent of the pack and what it cost to replace 50%. Tell me what it cost to replace 10 percent & tell me what it cost to replace 50 percent and I can ballpark it - thank you.

I won't get started on how Nissan HORRIBLY botched quick charging infrastructure by NOT installing. Q.C's at dealerships ... ESPECIALLY in Nissan's largest US market - Southern California.

 

[DaveEV]

MOD NOTE:

Let's try to keep all future video related discussion in the new thread where most of the discussion has taken place - it seems like a good break-point. If people think some of the posts made here should be moved to that thread, PM me and we'll figure it out (or if you'd like to keep that discussion open, start a thread in Website/Forum Discussions and let me know).

Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF