Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

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TomT said:
I'm at two now, as of this morning. Just under 19 months and 22,000 miles.

ockam said:
I certainly do hope the batteries slow down their loss. I just noticed I lost my first bar this weekend after 16 months and 16,000 miles of use in socal.

Tom, I've got a question for you....

Your first bar lost report shows your ownership as 17 months and 22000 miles, and now your 2nd bar losss shows 19 months and 22000 miles. Could there be a typo on your mileage one one of the two reports or did you not drive the car for the past 2 months?
 
Thank you for the warm welcome. Glad to hear that we're welcome in the forum.

@RegGuheert, yes of course I'd be happy to take questions from here. I'll monitor this string, or you can post to the FB site. I believe that we'll put a call out for questions starting on Tuesday. But post here anytime.
 
I guess I'm late to this party since this thread is on page 9, but something in the letter quoted in the OP has been bugging me:
While we understand that some LEAF owners are concerned about battery capacity loss, we want all owners to remember that all battery-electric vehicles – and all lithium-ion batteries – demonstrate capacity loss over time. So while your LEAF may have been able to travel a certain distance or more on a charge when new, its range will decrease as the battery ages, miles accumulate and gradual capacity loss occurs. This loss in capacity will occur most rapidly in the early part of your battery’s life, but the rate should decrease over time...
I've seen the idea that capacity loss should taper off stated over and over in communications from Nissan. I understand the general theory that if, say, a battery loses 1% a month that 1% of an 80% degraded battery is just 0.8% of the original 100%.

Ok, fine. But what never seems to be addressed in such pronouncements is that as a battery loses capacity it will need to cycled more often and deeper to be able to produce the same range as a new battery. And that more rapid, deeper cycling ought to increase capacity loss. Right?

Am I missing something here?
 
dgpcolorado said:
Ok, fine. But what never seems to be addressed in such pronouncements is that as a battery loses capacity it will need to cycled more often and deeper to be able to produce the same range as a new battery. And that more rapid, deeper cycling ought to increase capacity loss. Right?

You got it right, but dont forget that the average commute on a Leaf is 29 miles and it will take a long time for the battery to get that low. It would have to get down to 36 miles of capacity before you could not do that commute with an 80% cycle.
 
I would like to make one more observation for Chelsea and Jeff based on my limited six months of LEAF ownership and participation on this forum: LEAF customers within the United States do not form a homogeneous group. I have noticed that our views tend to diverge along a few lines:

- Owners versus lessees
- Hot climate versus cold climate versus constant climate
- Those with access to an extensive quick-charge network versus L2 only versus no charging network
- Commuters versus sporadic drivers
- High-mileage versus low-mileage/long calendar life
- High-speed driving versus low-speed driving
- Save the planet versus peak oil/national sovereignty versus save money versus new technology

While I think there are other demographic splits between the many members here, these are the ones which I see that result in the most differences of opinion regarding the LEAF.

As such, I do not think most one-size-fits-all solutions will meet the needs of the entire U.S. LEAF community.
 
Herm said:
dgpcolorado said:
Ok, fine. But what never seems to be addressed in such pronouncements is that as a battery loses capacity it will need to cycled more often and deeper to be able to produce the same range as a new battery. And that more rapid, deeper cycling ought to increase capacity loss. Right?

You got it right, but dont forget that the average commute on a Leaf is 29 miles and it will take a long time for the battery to get that low. It would have to get down to 36 miles of capacity before you could not do that commute with an 80% cycle.
Even if that is the "average" (mean?, median?) what about those people who commute 50 or 60 miles per day? My impression is that there are lots of them, even if they aren't the majority. Will their battery capacity losses taper off like they are supposed to?

Or is the LEAF battery really only appropriate for, say, <40 mile per day commuters? I wonder how that information would impact sales?
 
RegGuheert said:
I would like to make one more observation for Chelsea and Jeff based on my limited six months of LEAF ownership and participation on this forum: LEAF customers within the United States do not form a homogeneous group. I have noticed that our views tend to diverge along a few lines:

- Owners versus lessees
- Hot climate versus cold climate versus constant climate
- Those with access to an extensive quick-charge network versus L2 only versus no charging network
- Commuters versus sporadic drivers
- High-mileage versus low-mileage/long calendar life
- High-speed driving versus low-speed driving
- Save the planet versus peak oil/national sovereignty versus save money versus new technology

While I think there are other demographic splits between the many members here, these are the ones which I see that result in the most differences of opinion regarding the LEAF.

As such, I do not think most one-size-fits-all solutions will meet the needs of the entire U.S. LEAF community.

+1
 
TonyWilliams said:
ericsf said:
They did not test drive the cars. Has anybody done that test ?

12 of us drove cars on a little test last week.

Click here -->>> http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=225481#p225481" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and click here -->>> http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=228326#p228326" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, click here for a range chart -->>> http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293#p101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

@Tony,
I've been reading those threads for a while and I am very admirative of the work you are doing to help the community understand what is happening. But with all due respect, you did not understand my question. I was asking about the battery test which consists in running the AC and heater at full blast as described in the service manual. The manual describes how many minutes each battery segment is supposed to last in those conditions. I know some people have dismissed this test but I am very curious to know if anybody who has experienced battery bar loss has done THAT test. Not a road driving test.
 
Hawk0630 said:
This is my first post in the forum, so let me introduce myself. I’m Jeff Kuhlman, Head of Global Communications for Nissan Motor Co. I enter the forum a bit intimidated. I used to be quite involved in EV and advanced technology matters many years ago when I headed Communications for GM’s Energy and Environmental issues and Advanced Technology activities. Then I had the great fortune to work with some great people in the business, people who were my co-workers and my mentors – Bob Purcell, Denny Minano, Jon Beresa, Byron McCormick, Erhard Schubert, and Chelsea Sexton among the many.

If you know those names and their careers at GM, then you know that it was many years ago that I was involved with EVs. Since then I mostly have been involved with luxury brands, including Cadillac, Saab and Audi. Late last year, I joined Nissan in my current position. I work and reside in Yokohama, Japan.

As I read through your posts, it’s clear that we have much work to do on the communications front. And as I read your posts, I realize that you’re asking for more than that. What I can do is serve as one of the bridges to Nissan. Andy Palmer, Executive Vice President of Nissan, asked me to personally lead the global EV communications effort. That direction is clear, no delegation.

Fortunately, there is a good team that I get to work with, some you know, some you may not know. Many of you on the west coast have met or are familiar with Tim Gallagher, he’s on the team. Katherine Zachary is also on the team. She is located in Nashville, and if you haven’t met her, you’ve probably read her quotes. Dave Reuter, head of communications for the Americas (everything from Canada south through South America) is also on the team. We also have members from Europe, and we have two folks from Japan who are in Communications and are close to the battery team and the vehicle team.

I believe that my responsibility, and that of this team, is to promote, defend and engage. First, we have been too silent on what Nissan is working on, what we think the future looks like, and what innovations are coming. Second, we also have not defended Nissan or the LEAF as well as we could have when others – competitors, the anti-EV groups, and the media – lobbed verbal attacks at our company, our product and our motivations. Finally, we have not talked to you as frequently and as transparently as was needed.

On the last issue, there has been a debate in our profession about whether or not to participate in enthusiast forums, such as mynissanleaf.com. Too often such efforts, while noble, came off as spin. So, companies typically monitor the forums and then answer issues through their owned social platforms, such as YouTube, Facebook and Twitter. We have all of that, but we’re willing to talk here if invited. After reading through the responses to yesterday’s letter I realize that the discussions will often be tough, but that’s part of being the face of any company or brand. So, tell me when we’re falling short of the three areas that I’ve outlined above. My commitment to you is to monitor frequently, comment often and bring Nissan people – executives, engineers, designer, technologists – to this forum.

To start, on Thursday we will have a chance to sit down and talk with Andy Palmer while at the Paris Motor Show. Andy has agreed to take questions and to answer them in a video that we will post no later than Friday. We will begin to solicit questions via our Facebook page. I invite you to send your questions.

From now on I’ll keep my posts shorter, but I thought it important to let you know a little about me and what I’m going to be working on as it concerns the Nissan LEAF. Thanks for “listening”.

So now I am confused. The last press release said that the battery degradation issues were under normal parameters. I would think that the people who are losing capacity bars would beg to differ.
Now out of the blue, after it really appears that Nissan is trying to spin this whole problem, this openness campaign ie spin session is supposed to make all of us feel warm and fuzzy. Sorry, but I do not buy it. The first step to righting a wrong is to admit that you have a problem. I have not seen that.
As I have also stated, if you lose those of us who went out on a limb on this faulty technology, then the movement is dead.
This is your chance to right this wrong. Don't blow it!!
 
dgpcolorado said:
Herm said:
dgpcolorado said:
Ok, fine. But what never seems to be addressed in such pronouncements is that as a battery loses capacity it will need to cycled more often and deeper to be able to produce the same range as a new battery. And that more rapid, deeper cycling ought to increase capacity loss. Right?

You got it right, but dont forget that the average commute on a Leaf is 29 miles and it will take a long time for the battery to get that low. It would have to get down to 36 miles of capacity before you could not do that commute with an 80% cycle.
Even if that is the "average" (mean?, median?) what about those people who commute 50 or 60 miles per day? My impression is that there are lots of them, even if they aren't the majority. Will their battery capacity losses taper off like they are supposed to?

Or is the LEAF battery really only appropriate for, say, <40 mile per day commuters? I wonder how that information would impact sales?


I too would be interested in the source of the 29 since the only article I rememebr said more.. like 37 per day.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/10/nissan-leaf-drivers-average-37-miles-per-day-added-range-not-needed-says-product-boss.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Volt's on volt stats average 31 EV miles a day.. so 29 for leaf seems awfully low. If the perceived acceptable distance for the Leaf gets to 40ish the more potential buyers will go for the volt at 38 or will switch to something else.


Also dgpcolorado's comment makes we wonder when Nissan says "glide path..." do the include the fact that some high-milage drivers will be forced to (or choose to) take alternative transport on longer trips so their decline will slow down?
 
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
I've read nothing in this thread yet other than the first post. Honestly, it was a good letter.
+1

IMO, this is another example of the majority being too quiet and a few who have decided that Nissan was evil whatever they say.

When I first learned in the now infamous "I've lost a bar" thread that the car dashboard was in fact showing battery capacity loss I couldn't believe it. I just couldn't believe that Nissan's engineering was so open to have actually put on the dashboard a gauge that shows battery degradation. I really tough this was going to be something one could only get by reading the diagnostics data from the car.

What other car actually shows you things like: My transmission is leaking or the compression ratio on my cylinder #3 is half of what it used to be. None. You find out when you go to the dealer.
 
Welcome Jeff!

I can't speak to how various other automakers (and their specific models) engage w/forums and message boards like this, but here's an example. "Prius Team" started participating on Priuschat probably around late 08, prior to the launch of the 2010 Prius in January 09. At first we thought they were a spammer, but they turned out to be legit (as I and about 50 other folks received invitations to a 2010 Prius launch event). I've personally met two of the faces behind the posts (Erica, current Prius product manager and Doug, the former one).

Glance thru their posts at http://priuschat.com/members/prius-team.44773/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. They do participate on and off and sometimes provide answers/more info on important issues (e.g. recalls). Occasionally, some do get frustrated w/their response though. I posted http://priuschat.com/threads/toyota-announces-voluntary-recall-on-2010-my-prius.76033/page-5#post-1059897" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; in response to some people's frustrations and I'd imagine what I said resonates with you.

Apparently, Doug (the former Prius product manager) has been on Priuschat since December 2003, when accidentally outed his other id (http://priuschat.com/threads/big-day.59788/page-2#post-819374" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). http://priuschat.com/threads/prius-brake-recall-%C3%A2%E2%82%AC%E2%80%9C-a-little-more-information.76158/page-3#post-1064441" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has alluded to them using consultants to gather info about Priuschat.
JPWhite said:
Goshen has hinted at a second generation battery.
(To make it easier to search for in the future) BTW, it's Carlos Ghosn. Ghosn rhymes with phone.
downeykp said:
The first step to righting a wrong is to admit that you have a problem. I have not seen that.
As I have also stated, if you lose those of us who went out on a limb on this faulty technology, then the movement is dead.
This is your chance to right this wrong. Don't blow it!!
Nissan's in a tough spot. Admitting a problem can expose them to legal issues. As we know, there's already at least one law firm trying to engage in a class action lawsuit.
 
DrInnovation said:
I too would be interested in the source of the 29 since the only article I rememebr said more.. like 37 per day.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/10/nissan-leaf-drivers-average-37-miles-per-day-added-range-not-needed-says-product-boss.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Volt's on volt stats average 31 EV miles a day.. so 29 for leaf seems awfully low. If the perceived acceptable distance for the Leaf gets to 40ish the more potential buyers will go for the volt at 38 or will switch to something else.


Also dgpcolorado's comment makes we wonder when Nissan says "glide path..." do the include the fact that some high-milage drivers will be forced to (or choose to) take alternative transport on longer trips so their decline will slow down?
check out Census material on this issue.
Nissan appears to be right about his commute-mileage data:

To get to work, the average commuter travels approximately 15 miles one way. Two out of three commuters (68 percent) reported a one-way commute of 15 miles or less, 22 percent traveled between 16 and 30 miles and 11 percent traveled more than 30 miles2. (see figure 2)


http://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/html/entire.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
The "Lease vs Own" split has to be the most prominent.
As a lease-holder, I'm pretty much tuned out.. content to see how the chips fall after three years and decide from there.

IF I was an owner, I'd be much more interested because it impacts the 'when do I sell' reasoning.
I learned my lesson on the Segway -- if you wait until the batteries show reduced capacity, nobody will buy it and you're left with an expensive "discard or spend-to-upgrade" decision.

I'm also puzzled because I'm pretty much the poster child for what NOT to do.. I charge to 100% every night, jackrabbit the thing at every green light, charge when it's only two bars down, etc, and I still have "5 stars" and 280 gids to work with.
 
thankyouOB said:
DrInnovation said:
I too would be interested in the source of the 29 since the only article I rememebr said more.. like 37 per day.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/10/nissan-leaf-drivers-average-37-miles-per-day-added-range-not-needed-says-product-boss.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Volt's on volt stats average 31 EV miles a day.. so 29 for leaf seems awfully low. If the perceived acceptable distance for the Leaf gets to 40ish the more potential buyers will go for the volt at 38 or will switch to something else.


Also dgpcolorado's comment makes we wonder when Nissan says "glide path..." do the include the fact that some high-milage drivers will be forced to (or choose to) take alternative transport on longer trips so their decline will slow down?
check out Census material on this issue.
Nissan appears to be right about his commute-mileage data:

To get to work, the average commuter travels approximately 15 miles one way. Two out of three commuters (68 percent) reported a one-way commute of 15 miles or less, 22 percent traveled between 16 and 30 miles and 11 percent traveled more than 30 miles2. (see figure 2)


http://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/html/entire.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm quite familiar with the bts data, thanks. But commute is not average total miles per day (that number, even by bts, is larger. But more sigificantly, BTS data noes not necessarily mean it is the average for Leaf users -- users seeking efficient vehicles often have longer drives. Hence what is far more relevent is the link above where Nissian said the average leaf user was putting on 37miles a day back in Oct 2011. So for it to fall to 29 from 37 is significant as it means new leaf buyers are not driving much, and/or existing leaf drivers are not using the car as much.
 
Welcome Jeff!

Unfortunately, you will be operating from the bottom of a huge hole, dug courtesy of Nissan. This forum represents the most enthusiastic group of Leaf owners you can find. It is a real shame that Nissan has not only not taken advantage of this group, but has ignored it. When you take into account all of the BS that Leaf owners have been told by local dealers and the Nissan EV Customer support reps, and then consider the silence we got from Nissan Corporate, you will have an insight into how difficult your job will be.

I look forward to some future posts of "what Nissan is working on, what we think the future looks like, and what innovations are coming."

I truly hope that Nissan is sincere in this new Openness campaign. Talk is cheap.
 
Here is where the 29 miles comes from:
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/infographic-nissan-leaf-celebrates-more-than-100-million-gas-free-miles" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

leaf_infg.jpg
 
Herm said:
Here is where the 29 miles comes from:
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/infographic-nissan-leaf-celebrates-more-than-100-million-gas-free-miles" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Thanks, that is interesting. I would not have expected the miles per day to have dropped so much frm 37 to 29. I wonder if they somehow changed how the computed it. E.g. Voltstats 31.39 EV miles per volt day driven, explicitly counts EV miles / day_driven and excludes days where the car sits. E.g. I rarely drive anywhere on the weekend, and if my wife does its short shopping trips. So it makes a difference if one considers my weekly 200 miles and dived by 5 (so 40 miles/day) or by 7.
 
I agree..What a joke, Celebrate National Plug in Day, by telling LEAF owners their batteries are not losing Capacity on an accelerated pace...some support Nissan....NOT!


JeremyW said:
Tomorrow is going to be a very interesting day. :)
 
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