Plug-in hybrids make recharging structure useless to EVs?

[garygid]

There will never be enough chargers to plan a trip reliably, there will always be risk of defective or unavailable charging stations. EV's are great commuter cars and terrible road trip cars.

Isn't that basically the same thing they said about finding gas for the early ICEs?

 

[ericsf]

Maybe the solution is a reservation system for EVSE. The day I will really need to recharge to make it for my trip, I'll book it and hopefully the system will be able to tell me if the station I plan to use is not broken.

Charpoint has started such a system but last time I checked, it's only avaiable in WA or OR.

 

[edatoakrun]

Crowded charge sites. Capitalism arrives. Problem solved.

Yes. I think we can expect that when and if the free market comes to public fueling, BEVs and BEVxs will prevail over ICEVs and PHEVs, and fast charging will prevail over public L2.

The problem, is that well-meaning, but muddle-headed "plug in" proponents, do not understand the adverse effects the effect of expending huge amounts of public funds on "free" parking lot L2s, is having on EV development.

In fact, there simply is no likelihood that public L2 slow charging, at rates anywhere from 3 to 10 kW, will ever be market competitive with electricity from faster charge stations, for BEVs, or for either fast charging or gasoline, for PHEVs or BEVxs.

Overnight charging using off-peak power from an L1/L2 will always be the least expensive and most convenient way to charge any "plug-in" vehicle.

Peak demand kWh, from a public L1/L2, will tend always to be the most expensive and inconvenient way to refuel.

In addition to the higher kWh delivery costs (due to the slow rate of charge) L2s are saddled with high fixed costs of additional parking places. In order to deliver a reliable charge from a parking lot L2, you need to install L2s and dedicated spaces to meet peak “plug-in” parking demand, and incur further costs to segregate these (usually empty, by design) spaces from use by ICEVs or non-charging "plug-ins"

If you drive a BEV, you will want a battery with sufficient capacity to meet your daily driving needs, without buying very expensive daytime (peak demand) kWh. When you do need expensive daytime kWh for longer trips, L2 will be non-competitive with fast charging, on the basis of both convenience (time and reliability) and cost.

If you drive a PHEV or BEVx, you will also want a battery with sufficient capacity to meet your daily driving needs, using cheap off-peak power. For these drivers, the high cost per kWh and inconvenience of public L2, will make either gasoline or fast-charging the preferable alternative, in the great majority of circumstances.

However, if you want to purchase a "plug-in" today, and are not averse to accepting charity from others, the prevalence in some regions, of a "free" public L2 infrastructure, and the current relatively small number of vehicles, relative to the number of L2 equipped parking spaces, may give the false impression that public L2 is a viable refueling alternative. The lack of reliability is of little consequence, since you were saddled with the stranded cost of your "back-up" ICE, when you bought your car. The price for the kWh, "free", is certainly right. And manufacturers, like GM and Toyota, are rushing forward to build large numbers of "plug-ins" designed to milk the artificial market, resulting from this L2 public subsidy cash-cow.

I expect that eventually, the public L2 infrastructure effort will collapse, due to the absence of market demand, for this inferior model. Once Public L2 operators start to charge the very high kWh rates necessary, to recover the very high costs of public L2, alternative fueling methods will reduce public L2 to a niche market position.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

1) have to agree that as more plug ins become available, so will the plugs.

2) some will no doubt charge a rate that only people who need a charge would do it.

3) having now had experience with QC, the pricing will make all the difference. i would rather they be on every corner because the first 10 minutes usually provides me enough to get where i need to go. having the stations be 25-30 miles apart does this. i rather they be no more than 5 miles apart so this lessens the thought of going, parking, charging. i rather plug in, walk a few blocks or less to where i need to go and so on

4) as far as the ICE'ing goes. that is really up to the charger station owner. i am seeing a few private installs where i doubt there will ever be much enforcement unless there is some major law changes and with the Majority still in the hydrocarbon world, nothing is expected to happen any time soon

 

[eclecticflower]

@AndyH, thank you, +1:

"No. One can paint it a different color and cover it in "EV" stickers, but at the end of the day the Volt is a PLUG-IN-HYBRID car."

 

[DANandNAN]

edatoakrun,
First, you do know that most folks don't drive that much on a daily basis, right?

The L3 situation you describe would be perfect if malls, restaurants, and zoos were in it for that "lucrative" L3 charging money. The money that MNL voters said they wouldn't pay anyway. Why would a retailer install a L3 over an L2 when 1. there's not that many L3 vehicles, 2. they're extremely expensive and 3. the folks with an L3 won't pay a good rate to use them anyway? If they're only able to make $5 on a charge and they're forced to designate that parking space as L3 only, then where does the profit come in with so few L3 cars? You're advocating that a retailer should make $5 (after all the costs are passed on to the consumer) maybe 5-10 times per week - and that's best case scenario in most markets - for what? Lets make it even better and say $5 @ 5-10/day. Even that is only $175-350 per week. That's it! $175-350 from a parking space (and lets be real, they're usually taking over two spots) that can't be parked in the rest of the time and the people using it won't even get out of the car? How is that lucrative? L3 stations are humungous money, and no one advised to leave their car unattended during it, so the users aren't spending money inside. Instead they're just using the station and leaving and the retailer will NEVER recoup their $40-100K investment. There just aren't enough L3 cars (-13K) in the U.S. right now.

There are a few L3 companies that are giving this a go and I wish them luck, but I think the number of new installations has slowed and will continue to slow as they run out of government funding and have to start relying on their sales. Folks are really upset about the chargers being $2/hr for L2 because they're paying a large premium ($1.75/hr). But, even the cheaper L2 stations have to make money (I will say I agree they're charging too much). Most folks here have already said they don't want to pay any more for L3 than what would be the equivalent cost in gasoline for driving a Prius. That's not going to work as the government funding drys up except, maybe at a few "busier" stations. That's what's truly charity. Even the cheapest L3 station will cost $30-$50K and I can't wait to see L3 charging prices and ranting threads once the government charity dries up.

Why is it charity to use a L2 charger when my family and I spend money (they make way more off of our business in a day than a "busy" L3 station makes @ $5/ charge) while using their incentive? How is it milking a market? You just said that you don't believe they're viable refueling alternative for RLBEV anyway, so why do you think a RLBEV should ever use one?

The only way L3 will be commonplace is if there's enough cars and the owners are willing to pay to make the stations profitable and we already know how few folks will pay actual (not subsidized) L3 costs.

Folks should ask themselves, if you were a retailer, zoo, restaurant or the like, would you want to spend $40-100K on a station and only make $175-350/week - and it'd probably be WAY less per week as the prime locations have already been filed. Or would you put in L2 stations that keep the customers in the stores, spending money for a few hours and while their car charges on a station that costs you way less?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Dan and Nan; your same argument has been presented dozens of times. sure, under the current conditions, DCFC is not a viable business model. thankfully change is ongoing

 

[AndyH]

There's a hierarchy of fuel and of maneuverability and of need.

You haven't provided any reasons why a Leaf should have special charging rights, you've only pointed out that other people in other circumstances get special rights. You seem to want to argue by analogy but there aren't any similarities between your examples and public charging, unless you believe that every Leaf is always short on fuel and ready to crash or that every Leaf on the road is less maneuverable than a Volt.

"...there aren't any similarities..."? I guess that's one disconnect. Sorry my analogy didn't work for you.

I was simply hoping to suggest that it might be better for everyone if we all worked together with some sense of decency and respect rather than copping an attitude and protecting 'our charging rights' with drones and hellfire missiles.

But since you asked, I'll suggest that EVs should have priority at all EVSE because they must charge and that PHEVs yield because they do not have to charge - ever. Yes, I realize there are plenty of grey areas. But hey - I didn't know for sure that the woman in the parking lot yesterday really needed a couple of bucks for gas but my gut said giving her the benefit of the doubt was the right thing to do.

 

[AndyH]

Overall the above position seems to be quite arrogant and very unlike the attitude of the EV community. EVers tend to help each other and work together.

In the aviation world, even with a full traffic pattern, the airplane with minimum fuel gets priority to the runway and everyone else gets out of the way until the problem is fixed. Similar in the military aviation world even if fuel level hasn't dropped to emergency status - low fuel or damage brings priority status. Additionally, in the air and on the water there is a hierarchy of vessels with various levels of right of way - powered planes give way to sailplanes or balloons in the air and smaller vessels move away from larger less maneuverable vessels or sailing vessels. There's a hierarchy of fuel and of maneuverability and of need.

Do we have to expect the area around EVSEs to become a testosterone-laced roller derby? :?

Wait, you're comparing being 2,000 feet in the air, having to declare an emergency, answer questions and risk having your ticket pulled to being parked in a parking lot waiting for someone to finish charging? :lol: If you've ever been the pilot of an aircraft that was low on fuel you probably wouldn't make such a poor comparison.

Things happen in the real world in spite of significantly conservative planning. Sure - stock fuel for the destination, then 1/2 or 1 hour reserves to the first and maybe second alternate. But let me ask you - just how quickly is fuel leaking from that fitting that was fine at the last 50 hour inspection and during preflight but decided that that last round of bumps was the last straw? Is an attitude problem going to push that stream of fuel back into the tank? :roll:

No, sorry - I really didn't expect you to 'get it.' Sadly.

Come back to MNL after you've gotten either your Leaf or Focus and we can revisit this if you'd like.

 

[SanDust]

But since you asked, I'll suggest that EVs should have priority at all EVSE because they must charge and that PHEVs yield because they do not have to charge - ever. Yes, I realize there are plenty of grey areas.

This makes no sense from a policy or a practical standpoint. From a policy standpoint we've already established that the priority wouldn't be needed in 99.9% of the cases, which means we'd get the wrong result almost every time. As a practical matter you can't have a "priority". Once PHEV is plugged in and the owner has left, you can't magically unplug the car and levitate it somewhere else.

The best way to fix this would be to charge. Say you had to pay $.40/kWh. Since this is probably more than most people pay for home charging, drivers who truly "needed" to charge would and those who didn't wouldn't. If charging is "Free" then it's just a food fight and it's best to go with "First Come First Served".

 

[Herm]

Big cities in CA should bear down and require large shopping centers to install an L3 charger, no parking for more than 1 hr and enforced by towing. Offer some tax credits and let the shopping center set the $$. Unit cant remain out-of-order for more than a few days.. whats the point of having Gov Moonbeam if you cant enforce things like that. How many large shopping centers in Los Angeles and San Francisco?

 

[DANandNAN]

There's a hierarchy of fuel and of maneuverability and of need.

You haven't provided any reasons why a Leaf should have special charging rights, you've only pointed out that other people in other circumstances get special rights. You seem to want to argue by analogy but there aren't any similarities between your examples and public charging, unless you believe that every Leaf is always short on fuel and ready to crash or that every Leaf on the road is less maneuverable than a Volt.

"...there aren't any similarities..."? I guess that's one disconnect. Sorry my analogy didn't work for you.

I was simply hoping to suggest that it might be better for everyone if we all worked together with some sense of decency and respect rather than copping an attitude and protecting 'our charging rights' with drones and hellfire missiles.

But since you asked, I'll suggest that EVs should have priority at all EVSE because they must charge and that PHEVs yield because they do not have to charge - ever. Yes, I realize there are plenty of grey areas. But hey - I didn't know for sure that the woman in the parking lot yesterday really needed a couple of bucks for gas but my gut said giving her the benefit of the doubt was the right thing to do.

No one said they'd be a jerk in light of an actual emergency, but you're implying that you have a right to charge simply because your RLBEV has no other option. But, you do have options. You could have bought a different car. You could have arrived earlier. You could wait. Lots of options.

I have no idea what you are talking about in regards to the woman in the parking lot and the money you gave her. I guess you had to be there.

 

[DANandNAN]

Things happen in the real world in spite of significantly conservative planning. Sure - stock fuel for the destination, then 1/2 or 1 hour reserves to the first and maybe second alternate. But let me ask you - just how quickly is fuel leaking from that fitting that was fine at the last 50 hour inspection and during preflight but decided that that last round of bumps was the last straw? Is an attitude problem going to push that stream of fuel back into the tank? :roll:

No, sorry - I really didn't expect you to 'get it.' Sadly.

Come back to MNL after you've gotten either your Leaf or Focus and we can revisit this if you'd like.

What? You're sticking with this terrible analogy of an airplane that's low on fuel and RLBEV that's low on charge?

Being low on fuel in an aircraft, for whatever reason you can dream up, has nothing to do with someone driving an EV, who arrives second and has to wait while someone else charges. One is an actual problem, possibly an emergency and one involves sitting and waiting. How are they even close to comparable? Seriously. How does owning a Leaf/FFE make the comparison between possible death for everyone on-board the theoretical plane and a RLBEV owner having to sit and wait make sense?

Improper comparisons use to be apples and oranges. Now it's airplanes and EV's :lol:

 

[DANandNAN]

The best way to fix this would be to charge. Say you had to pay $.40/kWh. Since this is probably more than most people pay for home charging, drivers who truly "needed" to charge would and those who didn't wouldn't. If charging is "Free" then it's just a food fight and it's best to go with "First Come First Served".

That might fix the "problem" but create new ones. Besides what does a store owner care if the chargers being used and the people are shopping? In his/her opinion, someones going to wait no matter what, why would I get involved and risk ostracizing my store by picking sides?

 

[DANandNAN]

Big cities in CA should bear down and require large shopping centers to install an L3 charger, no parking for more than 1 hr and enforced by towing. Offer some tax credits and let the shopping center set the $$. Unit cant remain out-of-order for more than a few days.. whats the point of having Gov Moonbeam if you cant enforce things like that. How many large shopping centers in Los Angeles and San Francisco?

Wow, that's quite a burden to impose on someone just because they happen to own a shopping center.

 

[eclecticflower]

@DanandNan: I keep trying to be impartial while reading your contributions with an open mind, in an effort to reap some value from an opposing viewpoint. Unfortunately, it appears your real intent is to incite arguments in your grandios efforts to be "right." A smug or arrogant attitude is unnecessary and pitting members against each other is counterproductive. Seems like you're trolling this forum for that reason only. Have you so little else to do? I mean that in the kindest way. When you actually own a LEAF, perhaps you'll have gained some insight and a different perspective. Until then, you're creating some bad Karma for yourself. Perhaps you should step away and redirect your energy into something more productive... :?

 

[DANandNAN]

@DanandNan: I keep trying to be impartial while reading your contributions with an open mind, in an effort to reap some value from an opposing viewpoint. Unfortunately, it appears your real intent is to incite arguments in your grandios efforts to be "right." A smug or arrogant attitude is unnecessary and pitting members against each other is counterproductive. Seems like you're trolling this forum for that reason only. Have you so little else to do? I mean that in the kindest way. When you actually own a LEAF, perhaps you'll have gained some insight and a different perspective. Until then, you're creating some bad Karma for yourself. Perhaps you should step away and redirect your energy into something more productive... :?

Thanks for the insight. I don't agree, but appreciate the opinion. I think that if you read some posts from a different perspective you might see things differently. Without outside perspective forums become a sounding board and that can also be a problem.

Thanks though

 

[Devin]

A certain quote on the subject of internet arguments comes to mind here:

It's like playing chess with a pigeon; no matter how good you are at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board, and strut around like it's victorious

Don't feed the trolls, ladies and gents.

 

[AndyH]

A certain quote on the subject of internet arguments comes to mind here:

It's like playing chess with a pigeon; no matter how good you are at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board, and strut around like it's victorious

Don't feed the trolls, ladies and gents.

Brilliant!

You are hereby presented with the inaugural troll hunter's Roasted Pigeon award:

 

[lkkms2]

A certain quote on the subject of internet arguments comes to mind here:

It's like playing chess with a pigeon; no matter how good you are at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board, and strut around like it's victorious

Don't feed the trolls, ladies and gents.

So true. Well said.

Back to topic.

Once I was looking for a new EVSE at a shopping center to try it out. I found it but had to wait until an
ICE that was loading something was going to leave. As the ICE car left a Volt pulled up but I waved and indicated I had been waiting to pull in and charge.

I chatted with the Volt driver for a minute about his car then I pulled in to charge. Later I thought, heh, I was really there to test this new EVSE location, not because I really needed the charge. If the Volt owners car battery had drained down perhaps I should have let him charge up. That way I could have helped reduce the amount of gas that was burnt that day.

I decided that next time I'd ask that question first, and if their battery was low and I did not really need to plug in, then I would let them charge.

Its about sharing and about priorities.