Preliminary RANGE results

[johnr]

http://news.kanaloco.jp/localnews/article/1006110045/

Nissan Leaf Range at Full Charge

No AC/Heat, 60 km/h(37 mph) cruise : 220 km(137 miles)
AC/Heat, stuck in traffic jam : 75 km(47 miles)

Edit: Yeah, I know, nothing really useful.

Nice youtube video on that page.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLoFAFHQvFA[/youtube]

But why does this Leaf have the square side-mirrors like that black one in Arizona? Hope they're not changing them, these square mirrors are so 1980's.

Edit: Oops, looks like I'm stepping into this topic now: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=560&start=0

 

[mwalsh]

But why does this Leaf have the square side-mirrors like that black one in Arizona? Hope they're not changing them, these square mirrors are so 1980's.

Yeah, I think you can kiss the proto mirrors goodbye.

As I noted in the other thread, don't I remember the shape as presented on the proto being lauded as a big deal with respect to range?

 

[evnow]

As I mentioned in the "reserve tank" thread.....it's beginning to look like the entire 24kwh is usable. So it's reasonable to think that the battery pack is somewhat larger than 24kwh, as we'd suspected at times. At 4kwh hour remaining, the "empty lamp" comes on, but you can apparently keep driving. Maybe with reduced performance?

Yes - the "limp" mode.

 

[DeaneG]

As I noted in the other thread, don't I remember the shape as presented on the proto being lauded as a big deal with respect to range?

I think the headlight bubbles were the feature in question. The idea was to keep the side mirrors from contributing drag and noise by deflecting air around them with the bubbles.

 

[mwalsh]

Hmm.....:

"At a preview event for Leaf this week in Japan, Nissan shared the likely real-world range under different scenarios. Let's say you're taking a leisurely drive on a pleasant day (68 degrees) and you're cruising at 38 miles per hour. You can expect to squeeze 138 miles out of that little battery-powered baby.

Ah, but who besides your grandfather drives that slowly for hours at a time?

Most of us are more likely to be zipping around town doing errands in our electric cars. In suburban traffic, at an average speed of 24 miles an hour, you can go 105 miles between charges, Nissan says. But this assumes you don't turn on the car's air conditioning on a 77-degree day.

When you're crawling along in city traffic in the summer with the air conditioning on, it's a different story. In that case (86 degrees and 6 mph on average) your battery will be dead in just 47 miles. But if you're a highway commuter in a heat wave—say 55 miles per hour, 95-degree heat and the air conditioning on—your range will be around 70 miles.

In the winter, of course, you'll need the heater to stay warm. This saps your driving range, too. If you're holiday shopping in New York on a 14-degree day and going an average of 15 mph in stop-and-go traffic, your range will be cut to 62 miles."

http://blogs.forbes.com/energysource/2010/06/11/warning-your-mileage-may-vary/


Edit: Also, on page 21 of the 'Product Outline' .pdf it says "Driving range over 100 miles (LA4)*" and the asterisk refers to the following "*Actual driving range may vary....etc. Using a new battery"

 

[Bicster]

This tells me more or less what I wanted to know: In ten years I can expect 49 miles of highway range in Houston (A/C on all the time)... and that's at only 55. Maybe 40 miles for faster sprints?

It kinda sucks, but it's still well within what I need most of the time. I can manage with it. I've only driven 82 miles since I filled up my car on Sunday afternoon.

Next question: are these numbers with ECO mode on or not?

 

[evnow]

http://blogs.forbes.com/energysource/2010/06/11/warning-your-mileage-may-vary/

I expect Forbes to be ideologically opposed to anything that doesn't burn gas. So as expected, the tone is negative.

One of the dirty little secrets about electric cars is that those claims that you'll be able to drive 100 miles on a single charge are hypothetical, based on ideal driving conditions created in a laboratory.

Who really thinks the range is not in "ideal" conditions ... Is it really a "dirty little secret" ?

Hopefully we also hear from folks with a +ve attitude.

 

[EVDRIVER]

What concerns me is that Nissan knows everyone wants to know range at higher speeds but they don't list that number, not even an estimate. It is very easy to get high numbers at low speeds, I wish they would at least discuss speeds at 65 MPH. I am also wondering why the weight was such kept quiet for so long and the estimates of 3500 LBS which is a huge factor for an EV. Even 3000 lbs is heavy but people are unable to appreciate that unless they have owned and EV and are unaware of how important weight is as a factor in range. The gorilla in the room is the weight and missing figures, I suspect this is being withheld as long as possible for whatever reason.

 

[evnow]

The gorilla in the room is the weight and missing figures, I suspect this is being withheld as long as possible for whatever reason.

Because they are still fine tuning ?

 

[MikeBoxwell]

What concerns me is that Nissan knows everyone wants to know range at higher speeds but they don't list that number, not even an estimate. It is very easy to get high numbers at low speeds, I wish they would at least discuss speeds at 65 MPH.

Range will depend on how you drive the car and the environment you drive it in. How quickly you accelerate to 65mph and what the weather conditions are at the time.

If I drive my Mitsubishi i-MiEV fast with rapid acceleration, I can normally guarantee being the fastest away from the lights, but my range can halve if I'm driving like that all the time.

If I drive my Mitsubishi i-MiEV gently and travel at speeds of up to around 55mph, I can exceed the published range for the car.

No AC/Heat, 60 km/h(37 mph) cruise : 220 km(137 miles)

Can someone make out the usable battery capacity using this ?

At 5 miles/kwh this would mean 27.4 kwh. I think 24 kwh is the usable capacity rather than total.

If you are doing a constant 37mph, you'd be doing an awful lot more than 5 miles/kWh. On a regular commute in my Mitsubishi i-MiEV, I'm getting around 6.5 miles per kWh. If I went to a test track and drove at a constant speed, I'd get an awful lot more than that.

Ignore the battery kWh figure, its a meaningless figure on its own: you really need to see figures for charging and discharging characteristics and temperature degradation performance to get a clearer picture of the range and performance of the car. I can't see Nissan publishing that information. If you want to know the economy of an electric car, get yourself a watt meter when you buy the car and measure it for yourself.

Learning how to drive an electric car economically takes some practice. It also helps to know exactly what the car is doing. For the REVA and G-Wiz electric cars, the owners club have reverse engineered the data output feed from the onboard computers to display what is actually going on with the car - the performance of each individual battery and the real time loadings on the battery pack. A couple of owners have even built a screen into their cars. Once you can see this information, it becomes easy to modify your driving habits to really increase your range.

From what I see of the Nissan dashboard, it doesn't quite give you enough information to do this in the LEAF. It will be interesting to see how long it is before somebody hacks the computer feed. :lol:

 

[Frank]

Nissan has not yet mentioned how the weight of passengers may affect the range under different driving conditions. After all, it is a 5 passenger car which means that the occupants could weigh up to 750 lbs assuming an average weight of 150 lbs per person including the driver. It would seem to me that this would have the next most biggest effect on range after driving speed, HVAC usage, and outside temperature.

 

[mwalsh]

average weight of 150 lbs per person including the driver.

I'm dieting right now.....loosing about .5lb per day. By the time I get my Leaf, I'll be positively waifish! :lol:

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I'm dieting right now.....loosing about .5lb per day. By the time I get my Leaf, I'll be positively waifish! :lol:

Good thing you aren't waiting for an Aptera.

 

[Frank]

I'm dieting right now.....loosing about .5lb per day. By the time I get my Leaf, I'll be positively waifish! :lol:

I was assuming that some of the passengers would be children

 

[garygid]

On a long, flat track at constant speed and with hard tires, the weight is not all that significant in the mileage.

Add stops and starts, and hills, and you have a much different situation, where the weight is a significant factor.

 

[EVDRIVER]

LA4 does not account for passengers? So close to 4000 lbs with three-four adults. This is going to be one tank of an EV on hills, perhaps this is the reason for what appears to be a large diameter motor for more torque but with much added weight. I have a feeling with one person in a Leaf the 0-60 is closer to 11-12 seconds and real driving in cities with hills and the lower regen is going to be far less efficient than expected. Weight is a huge factor unless one drive on flat ground conservatively. I would bet a gen 2 city car is much lower on weight and higher on range, much higher relatively.

 

[evnow]

We still don't know the weight.

Apparently Renault Fluence EV weighs 50 kgs more than the ICE counterpart. Why would Leaf weigh 500 lbs more than a prius ?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=556

Despite carrying a 250kg battery pack, the Fluence Z.E weighs only around 50kg more than a fully brimmed, petrol-engined Fluence. As a result, it’s nimble and good ?fun through corners, thanks ?to light but precise steering.

 

[AndyH]

I'm very happy with the prelim numbers - and happy that my analysis/guesstimate was fairly well calibrated.

The range conversations remind me of growing up in far Northern Michigan. In this land of vast forest and cold winters with about 350 inches of snow a year, folks learn that they live longer if they keep their fuel tank full, and keep a sleeping bag in the car just in case.

Winter's dense air reduces fuel economy, as does the drag from snow-covered roads. The added weight of keeping the tank above 3/4 and the survival gear also hurts economy. And yet there are frequent stories in the newspapers about folks that slide off the road and run out of fuel before being found.

This won't be a challenge for most of us, but for those in cold country, the same risks exist regardless of what vehicle's being driven.

The real benefit of an EV in cold country is that the search radius will be MUCH smaller if something happens. Those blasted ICE cars and their over-sized fuel tanks make it very hard on search and rescue crews!

Andy

Say Ya to the UP, Eh?!

 

[garygid]

If the LEAF GPS is essentially broadcasting your location occasionally (as it asks for updates on the use of e-fuel stations near your location), you should be "easy" to find (with access to the right data).

 

[SilverLeaf]

What's the true range of electric cars? This is a topic that we've touched on before and again recently. We think that Nissan might have been listening this time around because it almost immediately came forward with some extremely detailed range information that lays out exactly what type of mileage you should expect to get out of your Leaf. At a Leaf preview event in Japan, Nissan provided some of the most detailed range numbers we've ever seen and, dependent upon your driving habits, you may either be thrilled to hear the true range or disgusted enough to grudgingly take your $99 deposit back and look elsewhere.

Applying the EPA's LA4 test cycle, also less commonly referred to as the Urban Dynamometer Driving Schedule (UDDS), Nissan came up with some real-world range numbers for the Leaf. Here's an overview of the range variations we can expect from the Leaf:

Cruising at 38 miles per hour with ambient temps of 68 degrees, you could squeeze 138 miles out of the Leaf.

Averaging 24 mph in city traffic drops range to 105 miles, assuming air conditioning (A/C) is not in use on a 77-degree day.

In heavy stop-and-go traffic, averaging just 6 mph with temps of 86 degrees and A/C on, range drops to 47 miles.

At 55 mph on the highway in 95 degree temps and A/C on, expect range to be 70 miles.
Winter temps of 14 degrees with the heater on, will drop range to 62 miles in stop-and-go traffic, assuming an average speed of 15 mph.

There are an infinite numbers of variables which will effect your actual range, but these numbers give you a good idea of what to expect based on your own personal driving habits. Nissan insists that accessories such as windshield wipers, heated seats and the car's stereo will all have only a negligible effect on range. While we're certainly thrilled to see 138 miles in ideal conditions, it's a bit discouraging to see just 47 miles at the low end. Avoid traffic jams, cruise at steady speeds and keep the HVAC set to off and you should easily eclipse that 100-mile mark. The sad truth is, though, that there aren't many places in the U.S. where driving like that is regularly possible, especially not in the Leaf's initial target markets.