Red Leaf in Toronto: Honeymoon is over/charging questions

[RedMapleLeaf]

Hello everyone,

Massive amount of info here. Wow. My experience so far is very similar to many on the forum. Early euphoria, settling into good commute routine, now very afraid of battery capacity issues and vanishing resale value and/or a car that cannot be used if the battery degrades beyond 70%.

My situation summary:
Signed up on web site Aug 27, 2011 for my early adopter LEAF in southern Ontario. Needed a new car badly after my 14 year old Ford Taurus was rusting out from under me.
Got disgusted with A/V over charging install quotes, went with local electrician and Schneider dock.
Received delivery of slightly used demo Ignition Red LEAF (200 kms), SL, Fast Charge Port. (Thinking I maybe should have waited for a brand new one an extra 3 months, as who knows what may have transpired with the battery during the month or two previous to receipt...)
Cost to drive it away: $49,500.00 then the $8,500.00 rebate from Ontario Govt. Figuring I'd make up the $8,000.00 premium over a $33,000.00 ICE comparison car (e.g. Ford Focus ICE) within 3 years; anything after that is gravy. Gas @ US$5.00/gallon, electricity at 6 cents/kwh, 20K mi/year so my savings is approx. $4,000/yr on fuel + maintenance.
Bit of a wake up call the first weekend doing some "real world" range tests checking out my 120 km (75 mi) RT highway commute. Must charge at work...
License Plate "GAS LOL", extolling the virtues of no oil, cheap to run, etc, etc, making everyone around me roll their eyeballs. Wife thinks I'm crazy. Did some research on the car (way more informed than Nissan people) but still unaware of any battery capacity issues, thinking that after 5 years I might see *some* degradation, but hey, batteries will come down in price, right? :-\
First winter driving with the LEAF heater (2011/12). Need to buy long underwear. Good thing I live in a warmer part of Canada where it only gets to -15 deg. C (-25 F) only a few days of the winter! Fun trying to outsmart the CC functions -- you can't. (What do you mean, there is no "fan only"??!!) Car is garaged overnight where temp rarely goes below freezing (and is usually 15 deg F above outdoor temp).
Initially charging to 100% nightly, driving slowly to work (50 mph, 40% non-highway, hogging slow lane, 1 hour one way) and using trickle charging at work. Lots of 12 hour days :-[
Got L2 charging at work (240V outlet, EVSE Upgrade) which changed everything, charging to 100% overnight, blasting to work, charging to 100% at work, blasting home. With hot 2012 summer weather (nowhere close to AZ temps, mind you) and just some A/C, no range worries, and back to a 35 minute commute. Life was good.
Started to get concerned about battery life, and recently started charging at 80% overnight and at work. Currently have two bars left after the 36 mile one way trip (GOM says ~16 mi). Averaging about 3.9 mi/kWh annually according to CW.
Had I read the capacity concerns earlier on MNL, I would have been charging to 80% as much as possible and on the weekends (which I now do as well), and airing out the warm garage in the evening on the hotter days of summer (never more than 85 F).
Driving much slower these days (esp. now it's colder). I've done 19.5K miles in just under one year and still have all 12 capacity bars. Reading all the posts on MNL about capacity and freaking out just a bit. All my friends telling me I was nuts may actually turn out to be correct.
Being in a cooler climate (on average; we go from 0 to 95 deg F in Toronto) I hope to hang on to 12 capacity bars a little longer. However, given the experiences of those on the forum, I wouldn't be surprised if I lost a bar soon. I'm just hoping that my drop to 10 bars will be several years away, because at that point the commute becomes difficult unless I charge to 100%, which would further accelerate the decline. I would also put myself in the high-mileage category at ~20K mi/yr. Did I understand correctly that Ingineer's LeafScan tool might allow a charge point of something other than 80%? Sign me up!

If you're still with me, here are a few questions I tried searching for on MNL and Wiki; apologies if these are basic knowledge and have been answered elsewhere:

1. I've noticed that, now that I charge to 80% as much as possible, using climate control timers or on demand from the iPhone causes the SOC to drop. (I didn't notice this when charging to 100% but it didn't matter as much either.) This is all with 240V, 16A (Schneider or EVSE Upgrade) charging. If I run CC for 15 to 30 minutes or so, when I get in the car I see the "time to charge to 80%" display telling me 20 minutes at L2, and I have lost the 10th (really only 1/2) bar! I'm sure I've also seen that with CC the SOC actually *increased*. This is very troubling. I thought the whole idea of CC while plugged in is to not use the battery. Further, I'm vexed by the idea that I only got 4 out of 5 stars on my 24 K km battery check for charging while not going below 80% -- having seen that warning from Nissan I had rarely done this. I'm now wondering if the daily CC timer on the winter mornings (plus manually turning on CC via iPhone when I was running a bit late) was actually charging the battery after 20 or 30 min on CC. (I got 5/5 stars on everything else. Does using the CC (timer or on demand) while plugged in affect the SOC, either increase or decrease???

2. I'm finding the car's ability to estimate when to begin charging after I've set an End Time via the charging timer is really poor. The car routinely has the battery charged 3 1/2 hours before the set End Time. In terms of percent error, this is the same order of magnitude as the entire charging time! I could see giving a 1/2 hour of leeway, but to charge for less than four hours to 80% only to be finished over 3 hours early is crazy, especially when we are trying so hard to minimize the time the car sits with a high SOC. Do I really need to compensate for this early charging start by offsetting my End Time by 3 hours?

3. When charged at home to 80% using the L2 Schneider dock, my iPhone tells me 1.5 hours to a full charge, and shows 10 of 12 bars. When charged at work using my EVSE Upgrade (super thing!) at 240V/16A to 80%, my iPhone tells me 2 hours to a full charge with the same 10 of 12 bars. Surely the difference in the chargers cannot be the reason, as the car's own charging circuitry is determining when 80% is reached, no? Can it be the difference in ambient temperatures at the two locations (currently outside @ work is 40 F, inside garage @ home is 55 to 60 F)? When I get in the car after charging, the "time to 80% charge" says 0 minutes in either scenario. Any ideas as to what's going on?

4. Did anyone have their clock NOT show the correct time after the daylight savings time change this past (Nov 4) weekend? I had to disable DST to show the correct time. I'm having the 1-877-NOGASEV people look in to it...

Thanks for any advice anyone can give. I'll let you know when I drop my first bar of capacity.

One last note: My 16 year old son learned to drive in my LEAF and is now in the first classroom-only stages of proper drivers' ed. I can't wait to get his reaction to driving an ICEV for the first time when they begin in-car lessons, having logged dozens of hours in my LEAF as his only driving experience thus far.

 

[surfingslovak]

One last note: My 16 year old son learned to drive in my LEAF and is now in the first classroom-only stages of proper drivers' ed. I can't wait to get his reaction to driving an ICEV for the first time when they begin in-car lessons, having logged dozens of hours in my LEAF as his only driving experience thus far.

Welcome, awesome to hear! Are you in the Canadian FB group as well by any chance? You asked some interesting questions, and although I might not be able to answer them properly due to time constraints, I'm confident that others will. As you've already noted, this is an awesome community.

My short answer to you would be that the inaccuracy of the charging time display is well-known at this point. I worked with this gauge extensively and found a number of idiosyncrasies. Nothing we can do, I'm afraid, except learn to live with it.

I wouldn't worry about the battery too much given your cool climate. Preconditioning will help you keep reasonable range in wintry conditions. It's been observed that the battery will accept more charge when you turn on climate control, and it would be a plausible explanation for the four-star rating IMHO.

We just had a thread on DST this morning.

 

[RedMapleLeaf]

Are you in the Canadian FB group as well by any chance?

No, unfortunately. I've tried my best to not be on FB, but am discovering that I cannot even view other FB pages if I'm not a member. Scary. Maybe this will push me over the edge.
Renny

 

[abasile]

Welcome to the forum! With a 36 mile one-way commute and charging at work, you should be in good shape for a number of years of LEAFing - I don't think you're crazy at all!

Fun trying to outsmart the CC functions -- you can't. (What do you mean, there is no "fan only"??!!)

I saw somewhere that Ingineer has a good mod to "fix" this, and allow you to run the fan without the heater.

Car is garaged overnight where temp rarely goes below freezing (and is usually 15 deg F above outdoor temp).

Garaging the car during the winter should be helpful. For maximum battery life in warm weather, parking outside at night would be ideal. I believe that my lack of a garage, and a driveway that is usually in shade, has helped my LEAF's battery life thus far.

Currently have two bars left after the 36 mile one way trip (GOM says ~16 mi).

That is not bad at all, as that means you could still have about 30% of the charge remaining.

I'm just hoping that my drop to 10 bars will be several years away, because at that point the commute becomes difficult unless I charge to 100%, which would further accelerate the decline. I would also put myself in the high-mileage category at ~20K mi/yr. Did I understand correctly that Ingineer's LeafScan tool might allow a charge point of something other than 80%? Sign me up!

Although the LeafScan isn't available now, I have to believe that there will eventually be a solution for those of us who want settings other than 80% or 100%. (I personally would like a 65% setting for use prior to my big mountain descents.)

Does using the CC (timer or on demand) while plugged in affect the SOC, either increase or decrease???

Yes, it can go both ways. Initially the climate control is likely to draw from the battery in order to run the heater at full blast, as that requires more current than the 3.3 kW charger supplies. Then as the heater load decreases, some charging will occur.

2. I'm finding the car's ability to estimate when to begin charging after I've set an End Time via the charging timer is really poor.

3. When charged at home to 80% using the L2 Schneider dock, my iPhone tells me 1.5 hours to a full charge, and shows 10 of 12 bars. When charged at work using my EVSE Upgrade (super thing!) at 240V/16A to 80%, my iPhone tells me 2 hours to a full charge with the same 10 of 12 bars.

Perhaps this can all be explained by your voltage at work being 208 V, not 240 V. That would throw off the charging time estimates between the two locations. As it is, I personally don't find the charging time estimates to be all that accurate, but they shouldn't be that far off.

4. Did anyone have their clock NOT show the correct time after the daylight savings time change this past (Nov 4) weekend? I had to disable DST to show the correct time. I'm having the 1-877-NOGASEV people look in to it...

Same here, but it couldn't have taken me any more than 30 seconds to fix both of the clocks. Honestly, I wouldn't want to waste my time calling "NOGASEV" over this.

One last note: My 16 year old son learned to drive in my LEAF and is now in the first classroom-only stages of proper drivers' ed. I can't wait to get his reaction to driving an ICEV for the first time when they begin in-car lessons, having logged dozens of hours in my LEAF as his only driving experience thus far.

That's cool! For all of its flaws, I find the LEAF far superior to driving an ICE.

 

[Stoaty]

Driving much slower these days (esp. now it's colder). I've done 19.5K miles in just under one year and still have all 12 capacity bars. Reading all the posts on MNL about capacity and freaking out just a bit. All my friends telling me I was nuts may actually turn out to be correct.

You are in an ideal place to preserve battery capacity. Based on your location, annual mileage and 4 miles per kwh efficiency, the Battery Aging Model predicts you will lose your first bar at 3.4 years (and 68,000 miles), 80% retained capacity at 5.3 years, and won't hit 70% until 9.5 years and 185,000 miles. While I would take this prediction with a large grain of salt, note that TaylorSF put about 50,000 miles on his Leaf in a similar climate and his estimated loss of capacity is very close to what the model predicts. Nothing to worry about, I would guess. See:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Deleted member 3147]

3. When charged at home to 80% using the L2 Schneider dock, my iPhone tells me 1.5 hours to a full charge, and shows 10 of 12 bars. When charged at work using my EVSE Upgrade (super thing!) at 240V/16A to 80%, my iPhone tells me 2 hours to a full charge with the same 10 of 12 bars. Surely the difference in the chargers cannot be the reason, as the car's own charging circuitry is determining when 80% is reached, no? Can it be the difference in ambient temperatures at the two locations (currently outside @ work is 40 F, inside garage @ home is 55 to 60 F)? When I get in the car after charging, the "time to 80% charge" says 0 minutes in either scenario. Any ideas as to what's going on?

Are you sure your work outlet isn't 208V? I don't know about Canada, but in the US, 208V is common in commercial buildings where the power feed is 3-phase. That could account for the difference. Otherwise, is your commute primarliy uphill going to work or into the wind going to work? That would leave the battery lower at work than at home.

4. Did anyone have their clock NOT show the correct time after the daylight savings time change this past (Nov 4) weekend? I had to disable DST to show the correct time. I'm having the 1-877-NOGASEV people look in to it...

AFAIK, this is true for all NA Leafs. There was a report from an owner in Europe that his Leaf changed automatically but otherwise, I've never heard of a Leaf switching automatically.

 

[mwalsh]

AFAIK, this is true for all NA Leafs. There was a report from an owner in Europe that his Leaf changed automatically but otherwise, I've never heard of a Leaf switching automatically.

+1. I've never heard of this automatic deal either before this last week.

 

[RedMapleLeaf]

Does using the CC (timer or on demand) while plugged in affect the SOC, either increase or decrease???

Yes, it can go both ways. Initially the climate control is likely to draw from the battery in order to run the heater at full blast, as that requires more current than the 3.3 kW charger supplies. Then as the heater load decreases, some charging will occur.

I think I understand now.

My first observations were incomplete and occured over a time span where the temperature dropped significantly. I now see that in the colder temps whenever I charge, whether at work or at home, the SOC is decreased. I didn't notice this last winter or over the summer when I was charging with L2 to 100% all the time, or trickle charging to some indeterminate point below 100%. When I was charged to 100%, I never looked to see if there was any time remaining (and "time to charge to 80%" isn't relevant) and you would have to use CC for a fairly long time in very cold weather to see a decrease of one entire bar from 100%. At 80% however, that 10th bar is not a full one, so it's easy to lose that bar with some CC in the cold. Losing what visually at least appears to be an entire bar after you thought the car was at 80% is a bit jarring.

What I'm getting from all this is that the power supplied by the EVSE is constant, and the car will divert all that it can to CC. If, however, a slightly warm day requires cooling which needs little power, the balance of power is given to the battery. (If this is the case, it would explain my 4 of 5 star rating for charging from 80% while using CC in the summer.) In the very cold (heck, even in the slightly cold as the heater is so inefficient), the CC would like more power than the EVSE can provide so it siphons off some from the battery. Either scenario is bad, as it is either adding to an 80% charge or removing range. I'm not sure if this theory is 100%, but it does explain the mysterious loss or gain in SOC.

I'm not sure I want to think about what happens when you ask for cooling with a battery already charged to 100%. Does the extra power overcharge the battery?

Regardless of this new understanding, it's still upsetting to me to realize that using the CC while plugged in affects SOC, after believing for so long that it only took power from the wall. I suppose warming the car in winter while plugged in is still better than not doing so, but it pisses me off nonetheless. What compounds my disappointment is the fact that the predetermined temperature and fan settings are so whimpy that in the depths of winter you really cannot expect it to clear a winshield from a day's worth of ice and snow and get the interior toasty as I had hoped. Further, in those cold days in the depths of February where you need pre-heating more than ever, you need all the range you can get as the performance of the battery is lessened in the cold. All those days of dreaming about a pre-heated and pre-cooled car; I guess my expectations were too high.

OK, I'm better now. Did I mention I love my car? I guess one has high expectations of those close to you.

 

[RedMapleLeaf]

Are you sure your work outlet isn't 208V? I don't know about Canada, but in the US, 208V is common in commercial buildings where the power feed is 3-phase. That could account for the difference.

I'm checking into this. I did have a discussion with the electrician at work before the L6-20 outlet was being installed and he assured me it was going to be 240V, but I have lingering doubts. Phil also mentioned this.

That notwithstanding, I'm not sure I posed the question clearly. It's about the iPhone app's estimation of "time needed for charge completion" being different after charging to 80% at home vs at work. I'm still thinking that if the car is charged to 80%, regardless of how it got there, the iPhone app should always give you the same numbers. I'm thinking it simply applies a fixed amount based on the reported SOC at the time of the update and whether you selected Regular or Trickle charging in the app. Selecting a different charge rate in the app gives you a different "time needed for charge completion". Perhaps the car is actually relaying the information about how long it will take to get to 100% based on the recent charge rate? That's too much to believe. If the car is sitting at 80% SOC at home or at work, I would expect the iPhone app to tell me exactly the same thing w.r.t. time needed for charge completion, whether the 80% was achieved via trickle charging, L2 charging @ 240V, L2 charging @ 208V, or DC quick charging. Remember that I'm not talking about how long it would actually take to charge from 80% to 100% based on the recent charge rate, but only what the time is estimated to be from the iPhone app.

Am I missing something? (Wouldn't be the first time :lol: )

 

[Reddy]

Red, I can't help you much as I always charge on L1 and don't have the cold temps that you have. However, I can tell you that on L1 I am still able to use CC and the car gets "warm" (but not toasty) even down to our coldest nights (0 F outside, but I use the garage). In this case, the car pulls 1.44 kw from the wall and then supplements 1-3 kw from the battery depending upon temps.

Reddy

 

[jclemens]

Wow, 31000km, impressive.
I'm also in Mississauga, I just hit 20000km in 1 year, I doubt you will have a battery degradation issue, but I think you are one of the highest km cars in Canada from what I've seen so far.

I have also been working with this range table a lot; http://bit.ly/rangetable Right now I use v5 (not published yet) which now tells me near exact time to charge based on km driven, temperature and km/kwh. I've been trying to find a way to calculate potential range accurately, the table is pretty accurate, but the only way to truly test it is to go to turtle, and I've only done that once as a capacity test, and I haven't done it again since, and don't really want to. It is really nerve racking now with the newer firmware, seen 1 or 2 bars and a very low km count on the GOM, but my table says I have more, and charge times agree, so... *shrug*

about charge times, the iphone app only gets the data from carwings, which gets the data from the car, which is not totally reliable on charge times. The only way to know FOR SURE how much time you need to charge is to calculate how much energy you used (km/kwh and kms), what your charge rate is, (208, 240, 120, 110, 12amps, 16amps?) and what the efficiency of the the leaf's charger is at said rate. (115V @12amps = 60%, 225V@12A=74%, [email protected] = 85%)
I know these numbers from measuring myself. YMMV

Too bad you are not on facebook, you probably didn't know about the meetup we hosted at the 10x charging stations in Waterdown. (filled 7/10 chargers). There is also a guy who wants to start a club; Golden Horseshoe Electric Vehicle Association. http://www.gheva.org

How did you convince your employer to install 240V outside? The best I could do is 120V outside, but no reserved parking.... and the plugs are by the entrance, with a morning shift, it is pretty impossible for me to get to them unless I park illegally or arrive 3 hours early, luckily my commute is only 20km typically, though sometimes I like to charge at work if I drove in from Hamilton.

 

[RedMapleLeaf]

Driving much slower these days (esp. now it's colder). I've done 19.5K miles in just under one year and still have all 12 capacity bars. Reading all the posts on MNL about capacity and freaking out just a bit. All my friends telling me I was nuts may actually turn out to be correct.

You are in an ideal place to preserve battery capacity. Based on your location, annual mileage and 4 miles per kwh efficiency, the Battery Aging Model predicts you will lose your first bar at 3.4 years (and 68,000 miles), 80% retained capacity at 5.3 years, and won't hit 70% until 9.5 years and 185,000 miles. While I would take this prediction with a large grain of salt, note that TaylorSF put about 50,000 miles on his Leaf in a similar climate and his estimated loss of capacity is very close to what the model predicts. Nothing to worry about, I would guess. See:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Grain of salt taken, but thank you very much for the mollifying prediction. I did sleep better. Given that we are still very much in uncharted territory (along with Nissan), esp. w.r.t. costs, the ability to purchase a new pack, aftermarkets, refurbs, warranty claims, etc., the situation could still turn out very well. If I can get to 10 or even 7 years with my current commute and the current car's pack I'd be thrilled AND happy to purchase a new (improved?) pack. My savings may have been less, but I've driven with much less impact on the environment, gotten off of oil, and helped the cause.

Thanks again.

 

[RedMapleLeaf]

Wow, 31000km, impressive.
I'm also in Mississauga, I just hit 20000km in 1 year, I doubt you will have a battery degradation issue, but I think you are one of the highest km cars in Canada from what I've seen so far.

I have also been working with this range table a lot; http://bit.ly/rangetable Right now I use v5 (not published yet) which now tells me near exact time to charge based on km driven, temperature and km/kwh. I've been trying to find a way to calculate potential range accurately, the table is pretty accurate, but the only way to truly test it is to go to turtle, and I've only done that once as a capacity test, and I haven't done it again since, and don't really want to. It is really nerve racking now with the newer firmware, seen 1 or 2 bars and a very low km count on the GOM, but my table says I have more, and charge times agree, so... *shrug*

about charge times, the iphone app only gets the data from carwings, which gets the data from the car, which is not totally reliable on charge times. The only way to know FOR SURE how much time you need to charge is to calculate how much energy you used (km/kwh and kms), what your charge rate is, (208, 240, 120, 110, 12amps, 16amps?) and what the efficiency of the the leaf's charger is at said rate. (115V @12amps = 60%, 225V@12A=74%, [email protected] = 85%)
I know these numbers from measuring myself. YMMV

Too bad you are not on facebook, you probably didn't know about the meetup we hosted at the 10x charging stations in Waterdown. (filled 7/10 chargers). There is also a guy who wants to start a club; Golden Horseshoe Electric Vehicle Association. http://www.gheva.org

How did you convince your employer to install 240V outside? The best I could do is 120V outside, but no reserved parking.... and the plugs are by the entrance, with a morning shift, it is pretty impossible for me to get to them unless I park illegally or arrive 3 hours early, luckily my commute is only 20km typically, though sometimes I like to charge at work if I drove in from Hamilton.

Hi, good to hear from you. My son has seen 2 or 3 sightings of LEAFs in my area (2 may have been the same car) but I have only ever seen one about 3 or 4 weeks ago driving north on Winston Churchill Blvd. I waved at the driver from behind -- IIRC they were in a black one.

In no particular order: I approached my employer while deciding to get the car in the summer of 2011 and they seemed friendly to the idea, but later it was clear I wouldn't be getting anything for free. Therefore, initially we decided to have a lone 120V outlet that was at the rear of the building upgraded to a 20A GFCI + weather resistant cover. I paid for the upgrade (fortunately the wiring to the outlet was already sized for 20A) and that was $150. When the 1 hour drearily slow commute to Buttonville and 12 hour days during the first winter started to get old, I hit on the EVSE Upgrade (instead of the attached dock) and I offered to pay for the simple running of a 240V/16A conduit/line to the rear of the building + GFCI breaker. That was finally installed in July, and I'm expecting the bill to be about $1500 but the contractor hasn't passed the bill on to me yet, and I'm not rushing him . All this commercial stuff is very expensive. I'm still happy to pay for it, especially as I didn't have to shell out for the additional $1500 for a Schneider weatherproof unit (the EVSE Upgrade unit works great and is portable). I guess the company is happy with me and I also did some numbers for them to state that I'd be using around $200 to $300 per year of electricity, so they allowed it. The outlet is in an inconspicuous place at the rear of the building, and I have intentionally kept things low-profile (no "EV-Only Parking" signs, etc.). Interestingly, there is someone at work on midnights who I see occasionally plugged in to the original 120V outlet with their electric scooter!

I guess there's no getting away from it -- I need to sign up on Facebook so I can see what is going on.

Regarding the iPhone prediction of time to full charge, see the other reply on this thread.

Regarding the range testing, I just read that thread and it's alot of work *and* you have to get to turtle, which I've never done. I got to no bars and "0" on the GoM early on before the firmware upgrade, and that scared the s&!t out of me. I've taken to keeping an informal journal, and since the commute is very repeatable and routine (given the varying seasons, wind speed and flow of traffic making you drive differently at times, usually slower) I'm hoping that will help over the months and years. I never did a baseline test when the car was new, and I unfortunately did not know any of this stuff about battery longevity other than what was in the car's manual, which is pretty much charge to 80% if you can, don't let the SOC get too low, and don't leave it for days in freezing temperatures. And here I was thinking heat was GOOD and cold was BAD for the battery as everyone is always going on about how battery performance suffers in the cold. I just returned to MNL after some months away and was feeling rather physically sick after reading all the posts about battery longevity and the stuff in Arizona. Yikes.

As for the 31,500 km thus far, after I was downsized in 2010 I was thrilled to find a job, even if the commute was 60 km one way from Erin Mills to Buttonville. 35 minutes in my old Taurus on the 407, with $350/month in gas and nearly $350/mth in 407 bills. Now I get on the road at 5:30 am and take the 401 (not bad, actually) and the 407 back, so I'm at about $200/mth in 407, $25 in hydro but $0 gas!

Thanks again for the post,

Renny

 

[Deleted member 3147]

That notwithstanding, I'm not sure I posed the question clearly. It's about the iPhone app's estimation of "time needed for charge completion" being different after charging to 80% at home vs at work. I'm still thinking that if the car is charged to 80%, regardless of how it got there, the iPhone app should always give you the same numbers. I'm thinking it simply applies a fixed amount based on the reported SOC at the time of the update and whether you selected Regular or Trickle charging in the app. Selecting a different charge rate in the app gives you a different "time needed for charge completion". Perhaps the car is actually relaying the information about how long it will take to get to 100% based on the recent charge rate? That's too much to believe. If the car is sitting at 80% SOC at home or at work, I would expect the iPhone app to tell me exactly the same thing w.r.t. time needed for charge completion, whether the 80% was achieved via trickle charging, L2 charging @ 240V, L2 charging @ 208V, or DC quick charging. Remember that I'm not talking about how long it would actually take to charge from 80% to 100% based on the recent charge rate, but only what the time is estimated to be from the iPhone app.

Ah. Sorry, the misunderstanding was mine. I thought you were saying the time to charge to 80% was changing.

You can probably disregard most of my posting. It's possible that the 208V would be relevant: that the car knows that it was last charged at 208V instead of 240V and so increases the estimate for remaining charge. I have 240V at home and 208V at work so I'll see what my car does with this.

 

[abasile]

I have a modified EVSE that charges at 12 A / 240 V. As this is slower than the normal 16 A for Level 2, the car adjusts its charging time estimates accordingly. That's probably reflected in Carwings as well.

 

[mrradon]

I found I can trick the heater but modifying the in cabin sensor resistance. If the system thinks its really warm already inside the vehicle I turn the HVAC on, turn off A/C and modify the fan to my speed, the heater never comes on.

I installed a 3 way switch. One makes the car think the cabin is really cool (so I can preheat to 88F) and the other makes it think the opposite. Since I live in Seattle I doubt I'll ever use the AC, but this position is real useful in getting the system to not run the heater and just ventilate the car.

Have fun.

 

[surfingslovak]

I have also been working with this range table a lot; http://bit.ly/rangetable Right now I use v5 (not published yet) which now tells me near exact time to charge based on km driven, temperature and km/kwh. I've been trying to find a way to calculate potential range accurately, the table is pretty accurate, but the only way to truly test it is to go to turtle, and I've only done that once as a capacity test, and I haven't done it again since, and don't really want to. It is really nerve racking now with the newer firmware, seen 1 or 2 bars and a very low km count on the GOM, but my table says I have more, and charge times agree, so... *shrug*

Joel, I'm glad that the table and the charging time display are useful to you. I would be keen to make some of the changes you came up with available to other owners. Especially the adjustment for low ambient temps. There are a few other things worth considering. For example, it would be good to reflect that the battery holds a larger percentage of energy below the low battery warning as it ages.

 

[jclemens]

Here is my spreadsheets. both have hidden columns, but everything would change if i ever get a gid meter. These are very streamlined so it works better on my android phone.

I suggest looking at v4 before v5

v4:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9tuMw2sAiICZm1DSEJrcEtENms

v5
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9tuMw2sAiICY00yZ19xSGtWZDg

the only values to change is the temperature, economy and km driven.
everything else is calculated. the default temperature is 20 which has no effect on the battery. I only update this value if the temperature is below 20. You should notice right away that the calculated L1 charge times are almost an exact match to the Leaf's predicted charge times, however this changes if you drop the temperature.

temperature is in Celsius and all other units are metric.
L1 is level 1 charging, 115Volts and 12 amps.
L2A is level 2 charging, but limited to 12 amps.
L2B is same, but maxes out at 15.81 amps

the usable battery value (in red) changes depending on the temperature, if you know you have had some degredation, then you'll have to change the 21 in the default formula, in v5, i put in 20.7something based on my theoretical calculations. (based on km driven and energy passed through the battery)

everything else is self explanatory in v4

v5 has one more function that is for opportunity charge. All versions are really only accurate if you reset your energy economy after your charge is complete at 100% or 80% and pre-heating was used. The opportunity charge function only works if you know exactly how long you were plugged in and charging and at what rate, it gives an added range based on energy economy.

 

[RedMapleLeaf]

Ah. Sorry, the misunderstanding was mine. I thought you were saying the time to charge to 80% was changing.

You can probably disregard most of my posting. It's possible that the 208V would be relevant: that the car knows that it was last charged at 208V instead of 240V and so increases the estimate for remaining charge. I have 240V at home and 208V at work so I'll see what my car does with this.

Interesting news to report: First, I learned that I do have 208V at work. Not sure how I missed that. :shock:

So, I think your reply and others were quite relevent.

Perhaps the car is actually relaying the information about how long it will take to get to 100% based on the recent charge rate? That's too much to believe. If the car is sitting at 80% SOC at home or at work, I would expect the iPhone app to tell me exactly the same thing w.r.t. time needed for charge completion, whether the 80% was achieved via trickle charging, L2 charging @ 240V, L2 charging @ 208V, or DC quick charging.

So I need to eat my words. I'm thinking now that the car actually reports the charging rate with the SOC via Carwings so the iPhone app is actually showing a more accurate estimation of time to charge completion. The 240V @ home vs the 208V @ work explain this nicely.

Whoda thunk? So that one is nicely put to bed. Thanks to everyone for the help and thoughts.

 

[RedMapleLeaf]

I found I can trick the heater but modifying the in cabin sensor resistance. If the system thinks its really warm already inside the vehicle I turn the HVAC on, turn off A/C and modify the fan to my speed, the heater never comes on.

I installed a 3 way switch. One makes the car think the cabin is really cool (so I can preheat to 88F) and the other makes it think the opposite. Since I live in Seattle I doubt I'll ever use the AC, but this position is real useful in getting the system to not run the heater and just ventilate the car.

Have fun.

I could probably find this in the service manual, but I'll ask anyway: do you have any technical details on this mod? Where is this sensor?

Thanks for the idea. Ingineer's CC mod may not be available in Canada so this may be a great alternative, esp. if it allows me to raise the heating point in the depths of winter.