SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US

[walterbays]

Sorry guys, but I'm with SAE. We need a single charge port. It's unfortunate that they aren't coming up with a replacement first before shooting CHAdeMO down though. Makes it look like they are purposefully trying to sabotage quick charging. It's like the home entertainment industry ruling out Betamax, but with no VHS to be seen.

It's not even a single charge plug. It's two plugs glued together, with trivial saving of space in the charge port. You'll only ever use one of the two plugs at a time, but will have to manhandle the cumbersome dual plug device into place, while dragging the weight of double the needed amount of copper wire.

I can imagine three valid possible reasons for a new quick charge standard: 1) If the CHAdeMO association will not license their specifications and patents at a reasonable price, barring new entrants to the market to impede competition; 2) If the CHAdeMO connector is inherently trouble prone, as with the Mitsubishi HQ connector lever breaking a couple of times; or 3) If the CHAdeMO protocol is inherently trouble prone, as with it taking so long for the San Bernadino 7-11 station to come on line.

So far I haven't found any indication of (1) patent extortion, (2) people have reported another style of CHAdeMO connector that is less error prone, and (3) the experience of a thousand Japanese and European charging stations argues against any fundamental flaws in the specifications.

 

[EVDrive]

Big hat, no cattle.

Lots of press releases, but nothing to offer except press releases.

Haha, yes exactly. They sure talk a good game, almost make you think they are saving babies... I mean saving EV's with their vaporware standard. How noble.

 

[Herm]

You guys worry too much, there is plenty of room under the charge port cover to get the Leaf upgraded to the standard SAE connector. Unfortunately SAE calls the shots in the US..

 

[TonyWilliams]

You guys worry too much, there is plenty of room under the charge port cover to get the Leaf upgraded to the standard SAE connector. Unfortunately SAE calls the shots in the US..

I'll bet ya that those new 2016 quick charge cars built in USA and Germany will be converting to ChaDeMo to use the thousands of existing chargers already in place.

I always find it odd that anybody would think the opposite. It will all depend on what Toyota and the rest of the world auto makers go with. If Toyota goes SAE, that might tilt things in favor of SAE.

 

[garygid]

When using the proposed SAE connector, L2 charging uses the same plug and cable as now.

When using the L3 cable, which uses the two extra heavy-duty wires, the two medium-weight "L2" AC power wires are not required, so the cable is much like a Chademo cable.

The problem between the 2 standards is NOT the connector, but the new (proposed) SAE control-communication method, which might even be designed so that it could too-easily "fail" if there is (too) much noise present.

Thus, further inhibiting the adoption of "fast" charging in the USA.

If this is not the intention of the standards committee, they should openly publish their proposed "standard" and the tests that they have run to validate the robustness (in adverse/noisy environments) of their design.

 

[SanDust]

The problem between the 2 standards is NOT the connector, but the new (proposed) SAE control-communication method, which might even be designed so that it could too-easily "fail" if there is (too) much noise present.

Quite right about the critical difference being the communication protocol. Highly likely the protocol wouldn't be robust, but the fact is that a protocol can't make up for the lack of a functioning line. Not likely either of these things will matter. Fast chargers will have far more issues than the communication protocol between the EVSE and the vehicle, and the communication protocol will the least of the problems. We know that from the Blink J1772 chargers. Perfectly reliable communication protocol and unreliable chargers.

 

[yellowwaterdog]

The problem between the 2 standards is NOT the connector, but the new (proposed) SAE control-communication method, which might even be designed so that it could too-easily "fail" if there is (too) much noise present.

Quite right about the critical difference being the communication protocol. Highly likely the protocol wouldn't be robust, but the fact is that a protocol can't make up for the lack of a functioning line. Not likely either of these things will matter. Fast chargers will have far more issues than the communication protocol between the EVSE and the vehicle, and the communication protocol will the least of the problems. We know that from the Blink J1772 chargers. Perfectly reliable communication protocol and unreliable chargers.

Apples and Oranges. Communications is the key technology for DC Quickcharging and it is a continuous communication between the vehicle and the charger.

What we know from Blink EVSEs is government money does not provide top quality equipment.

 

[yellowwaterdog]

You guys worry too much, there is plenty of room under the charge port cover to get the Leaf upgraded to the standard SAE connector. Unfortunately SAE calls the shots in the US..

I'll bet ya that those new 2016 quick charge cars built in USA and Germany will be converting to ChaDeMo to use the thousands of existing chargers already in place.

I always find it odd that anybody would think the opposite. It will all depend on what Toyota and the rest of the world auto makers go with. If Toyota goes SAE, that might tilt things in favor of SAE.

Toyota is neutral -- they want to sell hybrids!

 

[Train]

 

[IBELEAF]

I don't like any plug options and after a year of plugging/unplugging every day I see that wireless charging is just the way to go...

 

[Ingineer]

If they were smart, they'd adapt the CHAdeMO CAN protocol at least, with their new connector design, then it would be easy for EV'rs on either side to use a simple passive converter to connect to the other type of QC. If this "standard" ever does get traction, I suspect you will see the QC"s outfitted with both cable types, as it would cost little to add.

-Phil

 

[scottf200]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1074340_chevrolet-spark-ev-tested-in-california-details-unavailable" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chevrolet Spark EV Tested In California, Details Unavailable
BY JOHN VOELCKER Mar 21, 2012

We sat in today on a call with the Spark EV development engineers...
<snip>
The sole new piece of information was that the Chevy Spark EV would offer charging not only on 110-Volt household current and at 240-Volt Level 2 charging stations, but also via DC quick charging.

Asked for details, Schieffer declined to say whether that meant the Japanese CHAdeMO quick-charging standard built into Nissan Leafs and Mitsubishi 'i' electric cars, or the still-under-development SAE standard that's not currently available on any production vehicle. (We're almost sure it's the latter.)
<snip>
And please keep in mind: This is a low-volume car that will almost surely be sold only in California and other [15] states that have adopted its emissions standards.
If you're in the other 35 or so states, Chevy already has a plug-in vehicle they'd just love to sell you.
<snip>

 

[Luft]

If they were smart, they'd adapt the CHAdeMO CAN protocol at least, with their new connector design, then it would be easy for EV'rs on either side to use a simple passive converter to connect to the other type of QC. If this "standard" ever does get traction, I suspect you will see the QC"s outfitted with both cable types, as it would cost little to add.

-Phil

It would be smart if their goal was to make things easier for the consumer of Nissan products. I'm a bit jaded I guess but I think that's the last thing the US auto industry wants.

 

[edatoakrun]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1074340_chevrolet-spark-ev-tested-in-california-details-unavailable" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...The earliest time the (spark) would likely arrive at dealers would be sometime during the summer of 2013.

And please keep in mind: This is a low-volume car that will almost surely be sold only in California and other states that have adopted its emissions standards...

By which time, we can expect there to already be 50-100 thousand CHAdeMO cars on US roads, (hopefully) being charged, by thousands of CHAdeMO chargers.

 

[TRONZ]

Ya know the biggest joke about this is that the SAE mission statement proclaims that they are a "voluntary and purely technical" engineering group that does NOT get involved in the aesthetics of Automotive Design. Yet the very first sentence of the SAE QC Plug Proposal states that "automotive designers want a single port for a cleaner aesthetic". OK, First off, this is a purely aesthetic design issue and NOT the mission of the SAE by their own admission. Second, I guess they have never seen a LEAF which already has a single charging port with two plugs under it. Thirdly, if the SAE has seen a LEAF then they must be basing the purpose of their "port cover proposal" (what it really is) on the size of the port cover and that said port cover should also be juuuuust large enough to cover an SAE plug... that doesnt even exist yet. Yes folks, for purely "technical" engineering reasons, the SAE is now involving itself in the size (smallish) and shape (round presumably) of an EV's CHARGE PORT COVER!

The bottom line is that SAE plug is looking for a reason to exist. And the only reason they could come up with is aesthetic... which is exactly what the SAE is not supposed to do.

 

[EVDrive]

Ya know the biggest joke about this is that the SAE mission statement proclaims that they are a "voluntary and purely technical" engineering group that does NOT get involved in the aesthetics of Automotive Design. ...

The bottom line is that SAE plug is looking for a reason to exist. And the only reason they could come up with is aesthetic... which is exactly what the SAE is not supposed to do.

Comedy

 

[TonyWilliams]

And please keep in mind: This is a low-volume car that will almost surely be sold only in California and other states that have adopted its emissions standards...

Nobody is going to want to spend the money to install this new fleet of DC chargers for a tiny fleet of cars, probably in California only, particularly for sites that just installed an expensive Chademo machine.

Which will make those Betamax chargers a very small number indeed, which also means they will be VERY expensive.

 

[Herm]

Which will make those Betamax chargers a very small number indeed, which also means they will be VERY expensive.

I think you just christened the new SAE plug

 

[TonyWilliams]

Which will make those Betamax chargers a very small number indeed, which also means they will be VERY expensive.

I think you just christened the new SAE plug

I do get tired of the frequent, "well, the new Betamax charger is coming out, so we have to change" ain't going to happen in the short term, and probably never.

If SAE designs their protocol to be incompatible with ChaDeMo, so that no physical adapter will work at the hundreds to thousands of existing ChaDeMo stations, when there are close to zero SAE stations for the limited production cars like Spark and i3, good luck to them.

It is them that will be scratching their head to wonder how that will work.

 

[edatoakrun]

...If SAE designs their protocol to be incompatible with ChaDeMo, so that no physical adapter will work at the hundreds to thousands of existing ChaDeMo stations, when there are close to zero SAE stations for the limited production cars like Spark and i3, good luck to them.

It is them that will be scratching their head to wonder how that will work.

Which makes you wonder, if the SAE plug has actually been designed, largely with no intent, to charge EVs at all.

But instead, primarily, to muddy the outlook, and slow the establishment of the US fast-charge network, which, once established, will render most of the PHEV development efforts, of all auto manufactures, largely obsolete.