SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US

[smkettner]

Don't underestimate GMs lobbying ability to get a never ending stream of government money.

 

[bowthom]

Hello,
How is this any different than Tesla roadster owners bemoaning the adoption of the J1772? In the end, what is expedient will prevail (read $$$).

 

[TRONZ]

If SAE designs their protocol to be incompatible with ChaDeMo, so that no physical adapter will work at the hundreds to thousands of existing ChaDeMo stations, when there are close to zero SAE stations for the limited production cars like Spark and i3, good luck to them.

Buried in the technical paper of the SAE proposal I noticed a statement that said " it is RECOMMENDED that the proposed SAE standard be (backwards?) compatible with currently existing QC standards". Now "recommended" sounds to me like the SAE knew they were going to be stepping in it with their new design and needed weasel room. This way when it turns out that the SAE protocol does NOT work or play well with the majority of EV's, the SAE can simply say ".... well, we RECOMMENDED it be compatible, but have no control over this". :roll:

The Germans must be getting pretty antsy if GM is trying to get them to take an SAE oath. Love it.

 

[KevinSharpe]

How is this any different than Tesla roadster owners bemoaning the adoption of the J1772?

I think most Tesla owners knew that the proprietary Roadster connector would be unsuitable for mass adoption not least because of it's cost. However, when Tesla built the Roadster they had few options for a 70A connector, especially given that the standards committees were years away from finishing their work.

Personally, I wish that SAE had adopted the European Type 2 connector because it supports both 3 Phase AC and medium power DC in the same small connector... it could have been a worldwide standard for charging at ~50kW AC or DC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196#Type_2:_VDE-AR-E_2623-2-2

 

[CWO4Mann]

Really this boils down to a question of how much money could be or would be used to secure the future of the CHAdeMO system in the USA. The average cost of buying a Congressman is probably around $500,000 in unmarked bills. I doubt that it would take more than 10 or 15 Congresscritters to come over the CHAdeMO side to swing the balance. That's a very inexpensive and do-able 5 million dollars. A big company can take that out of petty cash like they did for the payoffs back in the days of the October Surprise, cakes baked in the shape of keys for the Ayatholla, the guns for what ever down in Honduras. Let's face facts: All politicians are crooks, you just have to find out what their price is. Bribery is the best way to do business in Congress, that's well known. Whether the expense is worth the capture of the CHAdeMO market is the question.

 

[Luft]

Which makes you wonder, if the SAE plug has actually been designed, largely with no intent, to charge EVs at all.

But instead, primarily, to muddy the outlook, and slow the establishment of the US fast-charge network, which, once established, will render most of the PHEV development efforts, of all auto manufactures, largely obsolete.

I believe it is pretty clear that GM, the oil industry and other US auto makers have figured out that limited range is the only thing that can slow or stop the adoption of EVs. We can be sure that they will do everything they can to prevent any solutions being implemented.

The development of better battery chemistry? I'll bet they'll want to "be a part of that." We can feel safe that any battery technology that GM gains rights to won't be sold to oil companies. You know... Like it was before!

A DC QC standard? Oh yeah, they need to be involved in that... You know... to make sure that the best possible solution is "eventually" implemented.

Laws that prevent charging spots from being taken by non-charging vehicles... That's important too. I'm sure that they just overlooked the fact that these laws will prevent plug sharing in an environment of scarce charging stations.

If Nissan is naive enough to trust any of these corporations they'll get eaten for lunch. These guys will lie with smiles on their faces and try to make the whole world believe that they're working to move the transportation industry off of expensive oil. But they are being disingenuous.

 

[scottf200]

So you guys complain that none of the SEVEN that are supporting the SAE standard have any plans for it's use ... then we have credible evidence that one will and now you are looking to twist the discussion into many other facets including blaming ONE of the SEVEN for the woes from various angles. From the outside looking at this it is pretty "interesting".

Why not pick on Ford?

SOURCE Ford Motor Company
DEARBORN, Mich., Oct. 12, 2011 /PRNewswire/ --
Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen agreed to support a harmonized single-port fast charging approach for use on electric vehicles in Europe and the United States

 

[edatoakrun]

My comment:

"scottf200"]...we have No credible evidence that...

GM, or any other of the "SAE standard" proponents, will produce more than a token number of DC capable vehicles, (edit, with the possible exception of BMW?) in the foreseeable future.

 

[walterbays]

My comment:

"scottf200"]...we have No credible evidence that...

GM, or any other of the "SAE standard" proponents, will produce more than a token number of DC capable vehicles, (edit, with the possible exception of BMW?) in the foreseeable future.

It could be that GM is hedging its bets on both Spark and on SAE QC. Now they have no plans to build more than a handful of Sparks for California to appease the CARB, and they hope to meet all EV demand with Volt which probably will give them a higher profit margin than Spark.

But if gas goes to $7, if EV demand is much higher than forecast, if Spark is a big success in its test markets, then they could get serious about it, and start selling them in quantity, nationwide or worldwide. In that case they'd have a great combo. BEV's are the best fit for most people, but PHEV's are the best fit for many people. If someone comes into a Chevy dealer to look at Volt and discovers that a BEV is a better fit, no need to go across the street to the Nissan dealer: the Chevy salesman will sell him a Spark right there. Conversely if someone comes in to look at Spark and discovers a BEV isn't a good fit, no need to leave: the salesman will sell him a Volt.

Similarly, GM is probably hoping SAE QC wins out so that the quick charging infrastructure is delayed by 2-3 years during which Volt can gain market share over Leaf and Mitsubishi. But they slyly have only hinted they would use SAE QC. If they finally decide to build more than a token number of Sparks, and if by that time CHAdeMO is firmly established with hundreds of charging stations, then they could just use CHAdeMO - abandoning the handful of test market Sparks sporting SAE QC ports for charging stations that will never be built.

 

[scottf200]

But if gas goes to $7, if EV demand is much higher than forecast, if Spark is a big success in its test markets, then they could get serious about it, and start selling them in quantity, nationwide or worldwide. In that case they'd have a great combo. BEV's are the best fit for most people, but PHEV's are the best fit for many people. If someone comes into a Chevy dealer to look at Volt and discovers that a BEV is a better fit, no need to go across the street to the Nissan dealer: the Chevy salesman will sell him a Spark right there. Conversely if someone comes in to look at Spark and discovers a BEV isn't a good fit, no need to leave: the salesman will sell him a Volt.

Similarly, GM is probably hoping SAE QC wins out so that the quick charging infrastructure is delayed by 2-3 years during which Volt can gain market share over Leaf and Mitsubishi. But they slyly have only hinted they would use SAE QC. If they finally decide to build more than a token number of Sparks, and if by that time CHAdeMO is firmly established with hundreds of charging stations, then they could just use CHAdeMO - abandoning the handful of test market Sparks sporting SAE QC ports for charging stations that will never be built.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1074340_chevrolet-spark-ev-tested-in-california-details-unavailable" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Chevrolet Spark EV Tested In California, Details Unavailable
BY JOHN VOELCKER Mar 21, 2012

We sat in today on a call with the Spark EV development engineers...
<snip>
The sole new piece of information was that the Chevy Spark EV would offer charging not only on 110-Volt household current and at 240-Volt Level 2 charging stations, but also via DC quick charging.

Asked for details, Schieffer declined to say whether that meant the Japanese CHAdeMO quick-charging standard built into Nissan Leafs and Mitsubishi 'i' electric cars, or the still-under-development SAE standard that's not currently available on any production vehicle. (We're almost sure it's the latter.)
<snip>
And please keep in mind: This is a low-volume car that will almost surely be sold only in California and other [15] states that have adopted its emissions standards.
If you're in the other 35 or so states, Chevy already has a plug-in vehicle they'd just love to sell you.

I added the red article text from my earlier post.

...Nissan Leafs and Mitsubishi 'i' electric cars...

IMHO the LEAF community should really be A LOT more concerned about the large number of Plug-in-Priuses that are going to be out there using L2 chargers. From the post I've read on their chat those new folks are getting addicted to driving on EV miles. I've read them complaining about other EVs being in charging stations when they wanted to use them. Those news articles about pure BEVs not being able to charge because of busy chargers may be a lot bigger issue than these QC issues.

If one of the seven come out with the SAE QC then certainly others of the seven will or already are in the stages of it. Why you guys insist on giving Ford a pass on this is still puzzling?

 

[Nubo]

Sorry guys, but I'm with SAE. We need a single charge port. ...

Not for any technical reason I can discern. As far as aesthetics I'd much rather deal with the smaller J1772 plug which I'll be using far more often than DC-QC, even if it were available. I can't see any reason for SAE becoming involved in a standard for something that already has a technically competent standard. It's not the ChaDeMo plug that is hindering adoption, it's the LACK of plugs.

Nothing more than an attempt to blunt the first-to-market advantage of Nissan, imho.

 

[walterbays]

...Nissan Leafs and Mitsubishi 'i' electric cars...

IMHO the LEAF community should really be A LOT more concerned about the large number of Plug-in-Priuses that are going to be out there using L2 chargers.

I'd love to see lots of PiPs, and to see Volt sales go up 2X or 10X, and to see Spark turn into a real production car, and to see Ford sell lots of Focus EV's. Every plug-in car on the road is more impetus to build more charging infrastructure. And as merchants begin charging money to charge, Volts and PiPs will establish a de facto ceiling for the price, the equivalent cost of gasoline, which will help BEV drivers.

If one of the seven come out with the SAE QC then certainly others of the seven will or already are in the stages of it. Why you guys insist on giving Ford a pass on this is still puzzling?

I can't speak for others. For myself, I see Ford with only a BEV now though they plan to introduce PHEV's later. So it would be to Ford's detriment to impede development of the charging infrastructure. And indeed it was GM, not Ford, which rammed through CA AB475 in an attempt to cripple the public charging infrastructure.

So far there seems to be no QC option for the Focus EV, so it doesn't matter to them how fast the QC infrastructure is built nor which standard is used. Later I'd guess they plan to add QC capability, and probably hope that SAE is the winning standard at that time.

So basically with Ford I don't see they have anything to gain by impeding public charging, and I don't see them taking any steps to do so. With GM, they have much to gain and have taken such steps. Now GM could certainly turn around my perception if they'd do things to accelerate the charging infrastructure. E.g., go back to the bargaining table with Plugin America to draft a sensible replacement for AB 475. Partner with some retailer or restaurant to install a network of charging locations that would put Nissan's dealer network to shame. Etc.

 

[scottf200]

...Nissan Leafs and Mitsubishi 'i' electric cars...

IMHO the LEAF community should really be A LOT more concerned about the large number of Plug-in-Priuses that are going to be out there using L2 chargers.

I'd love to see lots of PiPs, and to see Volt sales go up 2X or 10X, and to see Spark turn into a real production car, and to see Ford sell lots of Focus EV's. Every plug-in car on the road is more impetus to build more charging infrastructure. And as merchants begin charging money to charge, Volts and PiPs will establish a de facto ceiling for the price, the equivalent cost of gasoline, which will help BEV drivers.

That will be interesting and 'separate the wheat from the chaff' for PHEV owners you really want to drive on EV miles. I think the ceiling will remain above the equivalent cost of gasoline especially in CA. There may be monthly unlimited charging plans that non-BEV drivers will still buy/use if they can use them a lot. Likely PiP users wouldn't tho because of the small charges they need and the cost would be prohibitive by comparison to the use.

I don't buy the conspiracy theory of 'impeding public charging' for any of the 7 manufacturers, however.

BMW i facebook post today 23Mar2012 with a picture of a Mennekes charging port:

A central element for the increasing expansion of electromobility in Germany is taking shape. To enable all future users of electromobility to access a nationwide charging infrastructure in Germany comfortably and securely, BMW Group, Bosch, Daimler, EnBW, RWE, and Siemens have formed a joint venture, the hubject GmbH, based in Berlin. Fascinating, don’t you think? More information (in German language): http://www.hubject.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Title: Germany, Italy, France argue over European plug standards for electric vehicles
Via: http://green.autoblog.com/2011/04/12/germany-italy-france-argue-over-european-plug-standards-for-el/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A scuffle over different types of connectors for plug-in vehicles has derailed Europe's attempt to adopt a standardized charging plug. According to EurActiv, this highlights "industrial jealousy" as the plug-in vehicle sector grows to enter the mainstream automotive market. The European Union's "focus group on electro-mobility" had aimed to adopt a connector standard for recharging plug-in vehicles by the end of March, but a battle between rival designs has postponed the decision.

Sources close to EU's focus group reportedly told EurActiv that France and Italy expressed safety concerns over Germany's plug design. The German connector was expected to be adopted as the European standard, but the French and Italians blocked it for reasons that are thought to extend beyond the plug itself. EurActiv reports that an undisclosed source with close ties to the EU's focus group said that the scuffle, "is very regrettable and it is clear that industrial interests are at stake."

Title: The European standard charging plug for cars is selected after Mennekes design By Xavier Navarro Posted May 20th 2009 9:24AM
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/05/20/the-european-standard-charging-plug-for-cars-is-selected-after-m/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What does the plug used both by the Mini D project by Vattenfall al and BMW and the "e-mobility" project by RWE and Smart look like? Just like the one pictured above, which is a creation of a company called Mennekes. Getting all the interested parties to agree on a standard plug isn't an easy thing, so some initiatives had been taken to make the Mennekes plug the standard model, at least in Europe.

The plug works both for single phase 230-Volt connections, the vast majority of European outlets, as well as three-phasing up to 63 amps and 400 Volts, which results in a much shorter recharging time. It includes not only a connector, but also communication interfaces. A "plug present" contact, for example, turns on the immobilizer and a "Pilot Control" contact facilitates the exchange of data between the vehicle and charging station. In the U.S., the J1772 connector will likely be the new standard for plug-in vehicles.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Don't you drive a Volt, which has no DC port?

Here's a ChaDeMo connection.

Do some research please, before making unfounded assumptions. Your picture doesn't even look like it has pins big enough for DC power, but could be for 3 phase AC (totally a guess). Here's some interesting tidbits:

The prototype positions two ports below the main port to facilitate D.C. fast-charging.

Daimler announced Tuesday that it would show a prototype combination plug and port design intended for use on plug-in hybrids and purely electric vehicles. The system, a joint effort with Audi, BMW, Porsche and Volkswagen, will be on view at a technology conference in Baden-Baden, Germany

 

[scottf200]

Don't you drive a Volt, which has no DC port?

I do but someday I'll drive a vehicle with a DC port as well my kids.

Do some research please, before making unfounded assumptions.

You are absolutely correct. Thanks. My post has been updated.

 

[smkettner]

I am OK either way as I have no L3. It will take several years for all this to get resolved.
How are the RAV4s coping with the change to the J connector?
I am happy to be rid of the inductive system that I think GM pioneered.

 

[davewill]

... As far as aesthetics I'd much rather deal with the smaller J1772 plug which I'll be using far more often than DC-QC, even if it were available. ...

Well that is one of the points of the SAE design, if you're doing L2 you just use the existing L2 plug. You only handle the bigger version if you're QCing.

 

[TRONZ]

After the $100,000,000 bombshell in CA today, any manufacturer that does not have a significant number of QC EV's on the road in 12-18 months is going to be VERY late to the party.

I am sure they will leave some room for SAE units... whenever a significant number of those cars show up.

 

[TonyWilliams]

After the $100,000,000 bombshell in CA today, any manufacturer that does not have a significant number of QC EV's on the road in 12-18 months is going to be VERY late to the party.

I am sure they will leave some room for SAE units... whenever a significant number of those cars show up.

The same Government Motors folks who gave us AB475 are already in the handout line for get those Sparks a quick charge.

They won't have many cars, but they'll have your money!!! Actually, more of your money.

 

[Nubo]

Don't you drive a Volt, which has no DC port?

I do but someday I'll drive a vehicle with a DC port as well my kids.

Don't drive them too hard.