SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US

[padamson1]

“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over” -Joseph Goebbels

What a great quote.

I'm writing that one down. Thanx.

 

[edatoakrun]

To DANandNAN:
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over” -Joseph Goebbels....

I think we should give DANandNAN credit, for advancing this technique, to:

... one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

 

[TurboFroggy]

Here is another intersting perspective on all this infrastructure stuff.

There are 47,182 miles of interstates in the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System

If we were to install a Fast Charger every 40 miles on every interstate in the US it would be aproximatly 1180 fast chargers. If they all cost the current $50K a piece, that is $59 Million dollars for that infrastructure.

We to date have spent over $1T on the Iraq and Afganistan wars:

http://costofwar.com/en/

That $59M would be less than the cost of 5 hours of funding for the wars.

 

[cwerdna]

Here is another intersting perspective on all this infrastructure stuff.

There are 47,182 miles of interstates in the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System

If we were to install a Fast Charger every 40 miles on every interstate in the US it would be aproximatly 1180 fast chargers. If they all cost the current $50K a piece, that is $59 Million dollars for that infrastructure.

We to date have spent over $1T on the Iraq and Afganistan wars:

http://costofwar.com/en/

That $59M would be less than the cost of 5 hours of funding for the wars.

Interesting... I hadn't thought of it that way. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Numbered_Highways" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, there are also 157,724 miles of US numbered highways. Using the same interval and cost, that'd mean another $197 million or so.

Although this isn't a replacement for having charging stations in cities, this is a lot better than the

General Motors has estimated that it would cost as much as $25 billion to build out the 11,000 hydrogen fueling stations needed to support a "mature" FCEV fleet, Slate reported.

from http://green.autoblog.com/2012/05/22/obama-administration-rethinking-support-for-hydrogen-fuel-cell-v/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[Nubo]

You're asking for someone to install (probably with some taxpayer dollars) a charging station that costs at least $50,000 because you bought a car that only travels 65 miles. A station that can only be used by 10k Leaf owners yet costs $50,000.

Forgive me if I'm not excited for this. $50,000 per station, and you want them installed up and down highways and the Leaf is the only car that can use them. ...

Aside from cherry-picking the numbers (65 is not the range, $50 will not be the cost....), the simple point that eludes you is that all of the future EVs could have just as easily conformed to the CHAdeMo standard.

Your cheerleading of the SAE standard doesn't explain WHY it needed to come up with a new "standard" for something that was already fully functional.

The cost of the public infrastructure argues exactly AGAINST such an unnecessary fracturing of the market.

 

[Smidge204]

Your cheerleading of the SAE standard doesn't explain WHY it needed to come up with a new "standard" for something that was already fully functional.

Nor does it explain HOW the SAE proposal addresses/fixes all of his criticisms about CHAdeMO and QC in general (Cost, speed, utility, etc).
=Smidge=

 

[hill]

DEARBORN, Mich., Oct. 12, 2011 /PRNewswire/ --
Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen agreed to support a harmonized single-port fast charging approach for use on electric vehicles in Europe and the United States

* The system is a combined charging approach that integrates all charging scenarios into one vehicle inlet/charging connector and uses identical ways for the vehicle to communicate with the charging station . . . . . . . . snip

How funny - go to the "plugshareDOTcom sight ... scroll over to the CA bay area ... off the 101 in the Bellmont area . . . a VOLKSWAGEN electronics building has a chademo. I guess they didn't get the word that only the frankenplug is cool ... though no cars are even being PLANNED that can use the SAE plug. And yet, they need a vote - to kill chademo.
:lol:
I guess if we were in a loosing company - then WE'd have to take a formal vote too. Hey GM ... we deny you!!
woooh you've been "denied" . . . . so scary
:roll:

. . . . <snip>There are only three majors with credible EV programs: Nissan, GM, and BMW. The latter two won't sell many EVs in Japan, where the CHAdeMO standard is deployed. Both the GM and BMW EVs will no doubt at some point, perhaps even shortly, support DC charging.

GM doesn't even have an EV available in the U.S. and if/when they bring on the "Spark" ... it's only L2, in limited state availability ... just like BMW. But . . . if you've heard otherwise ... I'd sure like to know where I can get a GM or BMW QC ... even next year? Maybe folks have different views of what it takes to be credible DC charging support.

 

[KJD]

Excellent comparison. Thank you for posting this.
kjd

Here is another intersting perspective on all this infrastructure stuff.

There are 47,182 miles of interstates in the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System

If we were to install a Fast Charger every 40 miles on every interstate in the US it would be aproximatly 1180 fast chargers. If they all cost the current $50K a piece, that is $59 Million dollars for that infrastructure.

We to date have spent over $1T on the Iraq and Afganistan wars:

http://costofwar.com/en/

That $59M would be less than the cost of 5 hours of funding for the wars.

 

[timhebb]

The smoke, heat, shrapnel and invective of this battlefield mask the overarching truth that the battle itself is actually great news for most of us.

The issue is no longer whether a world with EVs in it will exist or not; the question at hand now (or one of them) is what standards will prevail to recharge them. It's the same victory that is illustrated when political campaign battles get contentious and even nasty: we have a choice between candidates, rather than the same dreadful dictator by default (ICE vehicles).

Let the best standard win; let the best EVs sell the most. In the end we all (EV advocates) win, no matter the outcome. That a tactical battle like this one rages on with such energy and passion, shows we already have.

 

[MaryC]

[How funny - go to the "plugshareDOTcom sight ... scroll over to the CA bay area ... off the 101 in the Bellmont area . . . a VOLKSWAGEN electronics building has a chademo. I guess they didn't get the word that only the frankenplug is cool ... though no cars are even being PLANNED that can use the SAE plug. And yet, they need a vote - to kill chademo.
:lol:
I guess if we were in a loosing company - then WE'd have to take a formal vote too. Hey GM ... we deny you!!
woooh you've been "denied" . . . . so scary
:roll

and hill, This location is probably one of the most used of the 3 QC's the Bay Area has. Plenty of Leaf's getting use out of it. This area will take all the Chademo's we can get.

 

[scottf200]

GM doesn't even have an EV available in the U.S. and if/when they bring on the "Spark" ... it's only L2, in limited state availability ... just like BMW. But . . . if you've heard otherwise ... I'd sure like to know where I can get a GM or BMW QC ... even next year? Maybe folks have different views of what it takes to be credible DC charging support.

GM and BMW both have cars for this new industry standard. It has been pointed out several times with articles and quotes. You are not paying attention but sound like you want others to search for you.

 

[TonyWilliams]

GM doesn't even have an EV available in the U.S. and if/when they bring on the "Spark" ... it's only L2, in limited state availability ... just like BMW. But . . . if you've heard otherwise ... I'd sure like to know where I can get a GM or BMW QC ... even next year? Maybe folks have different views of what it takes to be credible DC charging support.

GM and BMW both have cars for this new industry standard. It has been pointed out several times with articles and quotes. You are not paying attention but sound like you want others to search for you.

I'll happily bet you the following:

1. When a GM Spark shows up, very few will ultimately be equipped with the Frankenplug PWNC and there will not be a single public Frankenplug PWNC station to plug in to anywhere. Not one. In contrast, at that same time, every Nissan LEAF will continue to be shipped with the world standard ChadeMo port with 1600+ places to charge worldwide, and over 100+ in the USA.

2. BMW will be more aggressive, and ship all i3's with Frankenplug PWNC as a sales pitch to show how awesome it is to have this "advanced blah blah" plug and to somehow show value for this increased price over a LEAF with not one place to plug in. There is no way they won't ship without a DC port when Nissan ships everything with one.

3. The first UL approved, installed, permitted and operational Frankenplug PWNC in the USA will not be before January 1, 2015.

Who will bet me?

PS: I wonder what efforts SAE/GM/BMW are making in Japan to convert them to their "regional proposal"?

 

[scottf200]

Jay Cole InsideEVs:

Said to begin production in January of 2013, GM spokesman Kevin Kelly said the Spark EV will offer the new Combined Charging System on board when production does begin, making it the first announced new electric offering to thrown down the challenge to CHAdeMO.

Karla Sanchez Motortrend:

GM spokesman Kevin Kelly says it all depends. “It varies on battery chemistry design and capabilities, but some batteries can be quick-charged multiple times.” Kelly also noted the upcoming Chevrolet Spark EV will be able to handle fast charging and work with the shared system.

The Combined Charging System is projected to be available by the end of this year while vehicles compatible with the technology should become available in 2013. All automakers involved currently have vehicles in development that will be compatible with the system.

worldcarfans.com

"DC Fast Charging with a Combined Charging System," the technology offers four recharging options:
1) one-phase AC-charging,
2) three-phase AC-charging,
3) DC-charging [at home] and
4) ultra-fast DC-charging [at public stations].
This four-in-one approach will allow consumers to recharge their electric vehicles at a variety of charging stations. More importantly, it could enable EVs to be recharged in as little as 15-20 minutes.

 

[cwerdna]

I've started a thread at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8968" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for people to list what cars are coming out w/Frankenplug and when.

Ok... SAE combo plug proponents, fire away and list them there.

 

[cwerdna]

DEARBORN, Mich., Oct. 12, 2011 /PRNewswire/ --
Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen agreed to support a harmonized single-port fast charging approach for use on electric vehicles in Europe and the United States

* The system is a combined charging approach that integrates all charging scenarios into one vehicle inlet/charging connector and uses identical ways for the vehicle to communicate with the charging station . . . . . . . . snip

How funny - go to the "plugshareDOTcom sight ... scroll over to the CA bay area ... off the 101 in the Bellmont area . . . a VOLKSWAGEN electronics building has a chademo. I guess they didn't get the word that only the frankenplug is cool ... though no cars are even being PLANNED that can use the SAE plug. And yet, they need a vote - to kill chademo.
:lol:

At http://hybrids2hotrods.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, a VW employee at the above facility brought along a VW EV. He mentioned it had 5.1 kW charger onboard and it was J1772 only. He himself has a Leaf w/o CHAdeMO port so he and all of their VW test vehicles can't even use the CHAdeMO QC they have on the premises.

They do have lots of other J1772 L2 stations at their facility but they're no longer available for public use. He said that they need to use them to charge their own fleet.

I talked to him along w/another guy (and I'm sure many more). Someone asked him why they have a CHAdeMO charger even thought they can't use it. He said something along the lines of they want to see how people use it and how that'll change once they start charging for it.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

The VW facility is a research facility. So the CHAdeMO DC Fast Charger (DCFC) is interesting to them as research. They can get a feel for how EV drivers will use DCFC, regardless of the actual interface. You can't do this research with SAE DCFC, because there aren't any publicly installed SAE DCFC and no vehicles in consumer's hands with a SAE DCFC port in them. There are thousands of Nissan LEAFs with CHAdeMO DCFC ports in them within the 100 mile LEAF range to the VW research facility with the CHAdeMO DC Fast Charger.

VW may well go with the SAE DCFC, but it's several years before such a car will be on the market, and especially in volumes of 5,000+ per year.

 

[bryan38401]

good luck getting sae ul listed in 6 months some suppliers have been working on the ul for there CHAdeMO units for years. the j1772 plug took 18 months

 

[hill]

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/05/23/gm-strikes-out-against-chademo-dc-fast-charging/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

. . . . . Shad Balch, GM's manager of environment and energy policy, said during a recent public hearing in California that there should be a CHAdeMO embargo, "we need to make sure, especially because we're talking about taxpayer money, that ONLY those standards [i.e., the SAE combo plug] are installed going forward," . . . . . . . snip

Call me wacky, but if Shad's so worried about tax payer money . . . maybe he can see to it that GM buy's back the 1/2 interest that the fed's still own in GM stock, before he worries about trying to create a chademo embargo.

 

[GerryAZ]

With higher current density on the power contacts (smaller contacts than CHAdeMO), less secure latching arrangement, and using power line carrier for control signals between the EVSE and the car, SAE/IEEE and their automotive partners will be lucky to ever get UL Listing. Without UL LIsting, they will face difficulty getting permits for installation even if they are ever manufactured.

Tony is right--BMW will market EV's with QC ports. If the SAE port is not viable by the time they are ready to release vehicles to market, they will use something else.

Gerry

 

[Herm]

Forget about DC chargers and their high expenses.. lets use a built-in AC charger that can handle 43kW.. The Renault Chamaleon charger in the Zoe is my example.

Yes, a third connector.