San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them sooner

[TEG]

This is my first attempt at doing QC...
It is painfully slow going between menus. It must take around 10 seconds to read the card before proceeding. Long time trying to establish communications with the vehicle, etc. In the long run these things need to be made more responsive and 'user friendly'. Oh yeah, and actually work too!

 

[MaryC]

This is my first attempt at doing QC...
It is painfully slow going between menus. It must take around 10 seconds to read the card before proceeding. Long time trying to establish communications with the vehicle, etc. In the long run these things need to be made more responsive and 'user friendly'. Oh yeah, and actually work too!

Were you able to charge at all?

 

[TonyWilliams]

then tune it for about 18.5kW

Don't forget that L2 unit is on the same meter. Both could be running at the same time, so you'll need to take it into account when you're doing load calcs. How payment handled on the 15kW Fuji?

Jeremy

Run 18.5kW on the Eaton, full power on the L2s (up to 7.2kW each), and both L2s could run at once, and when the Eaton powers up, we load shed both L2s. A simple sign says that they are "subject to service interruption while DC charger is operating"

There is a rlatively simple system that's available to do the load shed.

The Fuji going in now at south Orange County is 25kW. I don't recall what card readers there is. Credit cards and RFID are the tiniest problem so far!!!

 

[TEG]

Were you able to charge at all?

No, not from that Blink CHAdeMO.
But they have a Chargepoint L2 in the same lot, so I used that slow one for a little while to get what I needed. Hopefully we can figure out why the Blink QC refused to charge my LEAF. It would be handy to have it there and working for me.

 

[JeremyW]

After all our fussin' over the San Berdoo unit over demand charges and payments, it looks like the unit is BACK ONLINE! Yay!

As far as that Blink unit- our taxes paid for quite the GUI, but the rest... well I hope it comes online soon.

Jeremy

 

[DaveEV]

So slam it full power for 13 minutes, then drop it down to reduce the demand charge for that high power initial 15 minutes and lose very little in terms of charge time because it was ramping down anyway at 50%. Of course this strategy won't work so well when they introduce upgraded LEAFs with 300 mile (72 kWh) battery packs!

The strategy won't work because if you charge at 50 kW for 13 minutes and then reduce the rate to 30 kW for the next 2 minutes, you incur a demand charge of 47.3 kW - your average demand over a 15 minutes interval. Even if you stopped charging after 13 minutes you still incur a 43.3 kW demand charge.

 

[Ingineer]

So slam it full power for 13 minutes, then drop it down to reduce the demand charge for that high power initial 15 minutes and lose very little in terms of charge time because it was ramping down anyway at 50%. Of course this strategy won't work so well when they introduce upgraded LEAFs with 300 mile (72 kWh) battery packs!

The strategy won't work because if you charge at 50 kW for 13 minutes and then reduce the rate to 30 kW for the next 2 minutes, you incur a demand charge of 47.3 kW - your average demand over a 15 minutes interval. Even if you stopped charging after 13 minutes you still incur a 43.3 kW demand charge.

Although a properly implemented variation of that idea could improve speed a little, it wouldn't be "kind" to the grid, so I wouldn't want to implement it, plus you have to have all your distribution equipment, feed, wiring, QC power electronics, etc, sized for 50kW, when really all you need are less than half for ~20kW.

I suspect a ~20kW QC is still a very useful device for most people, as not everyone needs a 0-100% (ok 2-95%) charge.

-Phil

 

[ElectricVehicle]

So slam it full power for 13 minutes, then drop it down to reduce the demand charge for that high power initial 15 minutes and lose very little in terms of charge time because it was ramping down anyway at 50%. Of course this strategy won't work so well when they introduce upgraded LEAFs with 300 mile (72 kWh) battery packs!

The strategy won't work because if you charge at 50 kW for 13 minutes and then reduce the rate to 30 kW for the next 2 minutes, you incur a demand charge of 47.3 kW - your average demand over a 15 minutes interval. Even if you stopped charging after 13 minutes you still incur a 43.3 kW demand charge.

Yes, I finally located the bit in the tariff where it says it's the average over the 15 minute period. The links to the tariffs are in the San Bernadino thread. So that says the best strategy is a constant power draw which leads you to battery storage, on site load shedding or energy generation, or reducing the charging rate. No easy solutions...

 

[ElectricVehicle]

The Blink QC at VW ERL isn't ready for public operation yet. They are still tuning it to work properly. Don't expect it to work until we get an announcement or status update on it, even if it is powered on. It's interesting and exciting to get our own status from visiting the site, just keep in mind that they know it is not operational at the moment, and they haven't announced it as operational, so they are really still completing the installation. So observe and enjoy, but don't get to frustrated, they're working on it, and it is coming!

I see they went with the green stop button. In the land of Dr. Seuss, Imagine green stop signs....

I do like the idea of the selectable charge level, presumably different charge levels will have different costs so you can pay for what you need, instead of a flat rate for the entire session for stations that do end up charging for charging.

 

[TEG]

Thanks for the update. Previously it had pylons (cones) blocking it off, so I took the recent lack of pylons and powered on as a sign it was ready to use.

 

[TonyWilliams]

the best strategy is a constant power draw which leads you to battery storage, on site load shedding or energy generation, or reducing the charging rate. No easy solutions...

No, there is not. Anything that adds upfront costs reduces the number of chargers that will be deployed (even "free" government money seems to have limits).

The short term goal has to be building out the DC charger infrastructure, and I'd much prefer that be done with relatively low cost, low impact to the grid units. Everything else at this point is a tax funded science project or utopian ideals from folks who haven't sharpened their pencils on the math.

1. Low power, below 20kW, is the cheapest solution that will expand that infrastructure the fastest.

2. Load shedding is a close second, but only useful in a very limited number of locations. But, it's relatively cheap to deploy the load shed equipment.

3. Battery storage is expensive to capitalize, and the depreciation is horrible. The cost PER CHARGE is several to many DOLLARS per charge, in addition to initial cost to be amortized. The JFE battery augmented charger in San Diego takes up a whole parking spot just for the batteries. Try selling that concept to most would be hosts!!!

4. Energy generation / augmentation is VERY VERY expensive, relative to the cost of installation. Plus, few sites have the luxury of room for a big solar array, or a giant battery pack, etc. Generators like the CARB approved Capstone micro turbine cost $400k for a 190kW system, and runs 44,000 hours before overhaul.

 

[TEG]

I see they went with the green stop button. In the land of Dr. Seuss, Imagine green stop signs....

Yes, it seems some CHAdeMO literature had suggested that manufacturers use that convention. Apparently in Japan, green isn't viewed as universal "go" like it is here in the USA.

Better picture of the green stop (stock image - not from charging I did):

 

[Spies]

I do like the idea of the selectable charge level, presumably different charge levels will have different costs so you can pay for what you need, instead of a flat rate for the entire session for stations that do end up charging for charging.

Please forgive my ignorance but can they do that in California yet, bill for energy used during a charge? I was under the impression they can only bill for time connected or time in the parking space so far. Of course selecting charge level is not really either time or energy used since both would vary with the vehicle being charged.

 

[TEG]

The wording here is somewhat funny:

Your charge has completed.
Please return the plug to the charger to avoid extra charges.

So if I don't return the plug to the charger, it might charge up my car again?
(As we discuss charging for charging...)

 

[TEG]

The Blink QC at VW ERL isn't ready for public operation yet. They are still tuning it to work properly. Don't expect it to work until we get an announcement or status update on it, even if it is powered on...

It was sort-of pre-announced that they expected it to be working by now....
http://www.plugincars.com/ecotality-confirms-locations-bay-area-first-electric-car-fast-chargers-111239.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...“I have signed contracts with the Volkswagen Electronics Research Lab in Belmont, and Sunset Development (Bishop Ranch) in San Ramon. Both of these will be installed sometime in January depending on the permitting.” The installation of these Quick Chargers could open up the entire Bay Area for daily EV excursions—to and from San Francisco, Marin, the East Bay, and South Bay...

Looks like they are close though. Maybe just one little tweak away from being ready for real.

 

[JeremyW]

4. Energy generation / augmentation is VERY VERY expensive, relative to the cost of installation. Plus, few sites have the luxury of room for a big solar array, or a giant battery pack, etc. Generators like the CARB approved Capstone micro turbine cost $400k for a 190kW system, and runs 44,000 hours before overhaul.

I know the Capstone is quite expensive, but are there other CARB approved natural gas (or diesel?) generators out there? Does CARB get sticky when you're using your electrons to charge a road going vehicle? You certainly proved that a 70kVA generator can power a full power qc at the last poway meeting!

Looks like I'm going to have to research into this CARB/generator/charger business.

Jeremy

 

[TonyWilliams]

4. Energy generation / augmentation is VERY VERY expensive, relative to the cost of installation. Plus, few sites have the luxury of room for a big solar array, or a giant battery pack, etc. Generators like the CARB approved Capstone micro turbine cost $400k for a 190kW system, and runs 44,000 hours before overhaul.

I know the Capstone is quite expensive, but are there other CARB approved natural gas (or diesel?) generators out there? Does CARB get sticky when you're using your electrons to charge a road going vehicle? You certainly proved that a 70kVA generator can power a full power qc at the last poway meeting!

Looks like I'm going to have to research into this CARB/generator/charger business.

Jeremy

Just barely!!! We used the full 56kW continuous load available and 17.2 gallons of diesel. That unit is not just CARB "approved", but "listed". A distinction, since there is a time limit to how long that listing is good for. Also, a stationary CARB approved and listed Tier 3 generator can only operate for 60 days.

I included the fuel burn above to highlight how grossly expensive a single charge can cost. I paid almost $5 /gal, so without the cost of capitalization, depreciation, oil changes, maintence, repairs, permits (yes, i had two lermits to operate it), insurance, etc, that generator cost about $75 to operate just for fuel.

Do the math to get an idea of how much just a single charge cost. The fastest way to go bankrupt in the DC charger business is a reciprocating engine generator. Batteries might be second.

 

[JeremyW]

Do the math to get an idea of how much just a single charge cost. The fastest way to go bankrupt in the DC charger business is a reciprocating engine generator. Batteries might be second.

I was genuinely curious as to the fuel cost per kWh. Lets go through it:

First, the data sheet for that genset you rented is here. (PDF warning) Tony rented the 70kVa model.

The genset is rated at 4.1 gallons per hour at 62kW load, giving you 0.066 gal/kWh. Lets use your estimate of $5/gal for diesel. This gives you a $0.33 per kWh at max loading.

You said you went through 17.2 gallons here. At (1/0.066)=15.15 kWh/gal, you would have gotten ~260kWh. I'd say you probably got 220-250 kWh or so out of her, as it was probably not running at full load all the time. 17.2 gal*$5/gal = $86... $86/220kWh=$0.39/kWh

Just barely!

Indeed! I saw the frequency dip to 55-56 hz when a new car pulled in to get some juice and loaded up the generator. Don't forget, we had two cars suckling at L1 for some time too! It was quite the hard worker. Pretty quiet too!

Looking at the 85 kVa bigger brother, I factored that it would be about 4.2 gallons per hour running at 62kW. For that extra .1 gallon/hour you would probably have a much happier generator.

Factoring in the cost of the rental and insurance is an exercise left to the reader.

Jeremy

 

[TonyWilliams]

So, a full LEAF tankful of juice at 24kWh at $0.35kWh = over $8 just_for_diesel_fuel.

Edit: I just want to clarify for those playing along: the total cost per charge on a diesel generator is MUCH greater than just fuel.

 

[KeiJidosha]

...1. Low power, below 20kW, is the cheapest solution that will expand that infrastructure the fastest...

So I guess Tesla on-board 70A L2 at 17kW got it right the first time. Nissan should adopt Renault Chameleon on-board chargers.