Should I buy 2022 Leaf S Plus for commuting?

[SageBrush]

Explain why my posts that talk about a LEAF in the context of ONE PERSON set off your self-worth bells.

Because

Translated, you have an inferiority complex about yourself and your car, and you are reduced to personal insults.

Sorry, but I cannot help you. Keep filtering, and keep your head buried.

 

[cwerdna]

The shorthand for all of this is to buy EPA range that is double the commute range that the owner wants to be drama free.

Okay but didn't you also argue in this thread that "The Tesla Model 3 SR+ is 262 miles range, is a LOT more car than a LEAF, and is $40k excluding taxes and delivery."?

The M3 SR+ does not give double the OP's desired drama free range. But you made the M3 SR+ comment within this context. So you seem to be suggesting 262 miles of Tesla range would be enough, while a Nissan would require 320 mile range to satisfy the OP. If we apply the 2x standard consistently then we would be discussing the M3 LR as a viable solution at a whopping $52,690 delivered.

I agree that this usage case is a stretch, perhaps a stretch too far for the Leaf. But I also doubt that the best solution is to spend 2x the money for a Tesla.

We all know that the EPA numbers are optimistic at best. Real world Tesla M3SR+ is closer to 230. The Leaf + real world is 200-210. Either car will work for the OP. We really don't know enough about the 60KWH battery yet to characterize degradation but Mass. is not a state where other Leafs have had battery issues. In his climate I would expect minimal degradation. Even in Arizona, 60KWH batteries seem to do OK so far. Winter in an S+ in Mass. might be a stretch If the OP needs to do 160 miles without a charge but the M3 also suffers from cold weather syndrome as well and would be pushing it too. If he moves up to the SV+ then things are a lot closer. It's still true that the Leaf is 40% cheaper and you can actually buy one and get it this month. If the OP has the ability to pickup even a modest charge at work or do a DCFC in-route if necessary, problem disappears. Spending $20K more to cover a1-2% possibility that can be mitigated with a little planning doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

On this note, at https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html, Leaf Plus SL is very close to 3 SR+ on Edmunds's range tests w/the Leaf Plus actually slightly beating the 3 SR+.

The wait time to order a new 3 SR+ has gotten even worse. It now is giving an April 2022 ETA. Was March 2022 a few days ago. I see no new inventory 3's at https://www.tesla.com/inventory/new/m3 within 200 miles of home and used ones starting at an absurd $50K for a '19 SR+ RWD. I think the price is bloated because it looks like "FSD capability" is included. It wouldn't surprise me if Tesla enabled that so they could jack up the price.

 

[SageBrush]

On this note, at https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html, Leaf Plus SL is very close to 3 SR+ on Edmunds's range tests w/the Leaf Plus actually slightly beating the 3 SR+.

If you are not quoting winter weather tests, the results are irrelevant.

 

[alozzy]

As if the same is not true for Nissan.

Except that, if I don't like the service from Nissan, I can take my LEAF to an independent mechanic and he/she can use a scan computer to figure out what's wrong with the car. I've been fortunate to not have any issues with my LEAF, but if/when I do, I will take it to a Nissan dealership as a last resort.

 

[WetEV]

I also know that NIssan SUCKS

It's always nice to see factual comments.

 

[alozzy]

Sheesh, what a crap storm. Everybody chill, we could argue forever here about the merits and shortcomings of both a LEAF and a Model 3. To pretend that either car is perfect is absurd.

However, I'm happy with my LEAF - it's been a practical and very inexpensive car to own. Having said that, I will definitely consider other used EVs and make an objective buying decision based only on my driving needs and the freedom to have any mechanic of my choosing work on the car.

BTW, if Nissan decides to use a proprietary communication bus on future EVs, to prevent an independent mechanic from being able to scan the car's computer diagnostics, then I wouldn't buy that EV either.

 

[johnlocke]

I would never buy a Tesla, as they have owners by the balls when it comes to repairs and servicing. Pray that you never have any major issues with your Telsa as you might as well tow the car to the junk yard and buy a new one vs paying the repair bill.

As if the same is not true for Nissan.

By the way, I've finally has some repair bills with my Tesla, both this month

1. A headlight bulb stopped working. A Tesla mobile ranger came out to my home as a scheduled visit and spent a bit under an hour performing the repair. It turned out to be wire damage from rodents. At that time I also bought a 12v battery from the ranger.

2. A couple weeks later the car would turn on, but then threw up an error message that multiple power systems were inactive (power steering, traction control, etc. The car could move but not really be driven. Tesla sent a tow truck within an hour to bring the car to the service center which is 70 miles away. That turned out to also be rodent damage in a different place in the electric harness.

Go ahead, estimate repair bills. The car is still in its 4 year new car warranty, but neither repair was covered.

If you haven't already done so, talk to your insurance company. Rodent damage is generally covered under comprehensive by most insurers. I've had it happen to my truck 3 times. $2500 for a new wiring harness once and major repairs twice (little buggers ate the O2 sensor wires which were under the intake manifold).

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Sage l, I don't think the 20K difference is much of an overstatement between a Leaf S+ and a M3 SR+.

Here in Illinois, car sales tax is 6 1/2%.

When I priced a new 2022 Leaf S+ last month, the cost was $32,400 -$3000 Nissan cash - $7,500 Fed. (No current state incentives. Destination is $975.

That is an effective price of $21,900 (and a taxable of $29,600) + 975 destination. (1924 tax)

The Model 3 is with no options $40,290 plus a $1,200 delivery cost. (2613 tax)

LEAF = $21,900 + 975 + 1924 = $24799
M3 = $40290 + 1200 + 2613 = $44,013

So yes $20K is an overstatement, but not really much of one.

I agree the cars are not the same in terms of features, but in terms of regional day to day travel (not road trips) offer nearly identical utility. You could argue a BMW and a Chevy ICE in the same way offer the same utility.

So almost $20K delta. It's why I struggle to justify buying even the cheap Tesla for the 7K a year miles we put on each of our Leafs. It's hands down a less sophisticated car, but that's oddly kind of an advantage long term.

 

[cwerdna]

The wait time to order a new 3 SR+ has gotten even worse. It now is giving an April 2022 ETA. Was March 2022 a few days ago. I see no new inventory 3's at https://www.tesla.com/inventory/new/m3 within 200 miles of home and used ones starting at an absurd $50K for a '19 SR+ RWD. I think the price is bloated because it looks like "FSD capability" is included. It wouldn't surprise me if Tesla enabled that so they could jack up the price.

I just noticed the wait time has gotten even worse and it depends on which color (and therefore price), you choose. If you visit https://www.tesla.com/model3 then try choosing an SR+ in white with 18" aero wheels, the wait is June 2022! If you add $1500 to go to 19" wheels, it becomes April 2022. If you go back to 18" wheels and choose any non-white color (they all cost $1K to $2K more), the wait gets bumped back from June 2022 to April 2022. I wouldn't want to pay extra for any of those colors and for sure wouldn't want black, don't like their grey ("midnight silver metallic") and probably wouldn't want red, besides being $2K more.

Too bad they got of their original silver long ago, which is a color I liked. I've seen their current "silver" aka dark grey which I dislike on any car. White is a fine color choice to me. I've had white cars before.

 

[SageBrush]

If you haven't already done so, talk to your insurance company. Rodent damage is generally covered under comprehensive by most insurers.

Thanks for the tip

But in the meantime, I'm waiting to hear repair estimates from the forum Tesla FUDsters.

 

[Snargleblarg]

JO2022,
If you bought the SV+ then good for you. Worst case is that you find it's not quite enough range and you sell it used. In this crazy market, the Leaf is one of the rare cars that can be had new, in reasonable time, and with sizeable discounts. Assuming you can claim the full $7500 tax credit and take the $2000 cashback from Nissan, you don't even have to negotiate with the dealer to get a smoking hot deal. You might sell it in 6 months for about what you paid for it. So consider it a trial rental and keep it if it works or sell if not.

If the Leaf doesn't work out, I'd consider a used Prius as a cost saver that you can drive a bazillion miles. Maybe there's a used Tesla on the high end of your budget that would do everything you need. So that' might be an option. But keep in mind that whatever you buy, you're going to accumulate miles quickly and sink its resale value. The Leaf resale scenario I described above would only work if you decide to sell relatively quickly.

SageBrush,
Your point about range has been well made. All your other points seem to be off topic and inflammatory. The Leaf is not half a car. Nobody's self-image is in question. And nobody wants to play The Price Is Right regarding your anecdotal repair costs.

 

[SageBrush]

And nobody wants to play The Price Is Right regarding your anecdotal repair costs.

Not even the people happy to post their opinions that Tesla repair costs are the stuff of nightmares, and a reason to not consider that manufacturer ?

FUD yes, facts no ? Is that the best MNL can offer ? And just when is a repair cost not anecdotal ?

 

[knightmb]

FUD yes, facts no ? Is that the best MNL can offer ? And just when is a repair cost not anecdotal ?

I wouldn't rope us all into that comment. You can find endless videos of people complaining about both the Tesla and Leaf for why it doesn't meet their needs. At this point, it seems the topic has taken a turn towards personal complaints than trying to give the OP some real-life, no non-sense, no salesman pitch information. I think the OP has enough information to make a decision about what they want, none of us here are going to get mad or sad should they decide to choose another manufacture. I have no issues telling people *not* to buy a Leaf if I know it won't meet the needs they present. I don't worry about endless hypothetical(s) that could happen.

 

[frontrangeleaf]

Sage l, I don't think the 20K difference is much of an overstatement between a Leaf S+ and a M3 SR+.

Here in Illinois, car sales tax is 6 1/2%.

When I priced a new 2022 Leaf S+ last month, the cost was $32,400 -$3000 Nissan cash - $7,500 Fed. (No current state incentives. Destination is $975.

That is an effective price of $21,900 (and a taxable of $29,600) + 975 destination. (1924 tax)

The Model 3 is with no options $40,290 plus a $1,200 delivery cost. (2613 tax)

LEAF = $21,900 + 975 + 1924 = $24799
M3 = $40290 + 1200 + 2613 = $44,013

So yes $20K is an overstatement, but not really much of one.

I agree the cars are not the same in terms of features, but in terms of regional day to day travel (not road trips) offer nearly identical utility. You could argue a BMW and a Chevy ICE in the same way offer the same utility.

So almost $20K delta. It's why I struggle to justify buying even the cheap Tesla for the 7K a year miles we put on each of our Leafs. It's hands down a less sophisticated car, but that's oddly kind of an advantage long term.

Nicely put. Our reasoning as well. Is the Tesla a nicer car? Sure in many respects. I have friends who love theirs. Doesn't mean it's the right car for me and my use case/budget. We like our Leaf. Nice little ride. Performs as expected.

 

[SageBrush]

The Leaf is not half a car.

It sure is to me, but I admit that my shorthand may not appeal to everybody. I am saying that

Cold-gating
Rapid-gating
CHAdeMO
No thermal control

in concert make the LEAF a crappy road trip car. The stories of people who try it are consistent: ~ 30 mph average trip speed, so about double the travel time of an ICE or a Tesla or a handful of the most recent European EV models. And that assumes working, available CHAdeMO -- a BIG if.

 

[Snargleblarg]

And nobody wants to play The Price Is Right regarding your anecdotal repair costs.

Not even the people happy to post their opinions that Tesla repair costs are the stuff of nightmares, and a reason to not consider that manufacturer ?

FUD yes, facts no ? Is that the best MNL can offer ? And just when is a repair cost not anecdotal ?

I can't speak for folks that claim high Tesla repair costs. I'm not those folks.. But I see that you tend to lump all opposing commentors together. In that post above, you managed to place yourself opposed to the entire membership of MNL. Congratulations on your efficiency - much faster than opposing one contributor at a time.

If you wanted to actually contribute information to the forum, you could just offer up your tiny morsel of data without demanding we play some guessing game. I don't fear your facts. There's just no upside to playing your game. I could guess too high, too low or dead on and I'll still win a pile of disrespect. I can live without knowing the cost of your repair jobs for rodent damage on a car I don't own. I don't care if it was super cheap. Shout it from the rooftops - "Rodent damage repairs on Teslas are shockingly cheap compared to other cars!!!" Whatever. But it's silly to act surprised that we don't want to dance like puppets on strings for you.

 

[SageBrush]

FUD yes, facts no ? Is that the best MNL can offer ? And just when is a repair cost not anecdotal ?

I can't speak for folks that claim high Tesla repair costs.

Then don't.

I don't have any particular desire in general to share Tesla repair cost information in this forum. It is a LEAF forum, after all.
But FUD laden misinformation annoys me.

 

[Snargleblarg]

I don't have any particular desire in general to share Tesla repair cost information in this forum. It is a LEAF forum, after all.

Lol, then why'd you bring it up and beg us repeatedly to guess the bill? We could have saved a few posts if you thought that one through ahead of time.

 

[jlv]

As some actual data points:

My 2013 LEAF SL had $0 in repair costs over 34K miles.
My 2017 Model S 75D has had $0 in repair costs over 50K miles.
My 2018 Model X 100D has had $0 in repair costs over 33K miles.

For "repair costs", I didn't include things like tires. The LEAF got one set ($550) at 27K miles, and the S got one set ($1250) at 30K miles, but it's due for another set next spring when the snow tires come off.

 

[knightmb]

Ok, that feels like you are trying to bait us into responding, so I'll bite, but only once.

Cold-gating, depending on what you read, it refers to the range decrease while driving in cold weather. The first problem is that many claim it doesn't affect Tesla. Well, there are plenty of real world testing videos out there to show otherwise. Anecdotal, sure. But it doesn't take much science to figure out that it takes more energy to keep the battery warm and that it takes more energy to "create" heat during very cold weather versus using the (AC) to simply move the heat out of the cabin to the outside to be taken away by the air. So in regards to the Leaf, it will get less range in cold weather, but so does every other EV for the same reason. Heat cost energy. The OP can get around most of this by pre-warming the car at home before going off on a long trip. Easy solution, pretty much what every EV owner would do anyway.

Rapid-gating, the Leaf only has passive air cooling for the battery. That means if you QC at a high enough power, you will heat the battery up and once it reaches a certain temperature, successive QC will charge at a much lower power rate due to the higher battery temperature. Until the battery cools back down, QC will be slow. The OP didn't mention going on any road trips greater than 400 miles in a single day, so it's good that the OP know about this limitation, but given the use case presented to us, will probably never be a concern for them.

ChaDeMo I don't know where the OP lives in Massachusetts, but here is a map of every ChaDeMo QC station in the state according to PlugShare. Every station is within 100 miles of the center of the state. Sure, we all know that ChaDeMo is being fazed out in the U.S.A., but for now, the OP isn't going to have an issue finding a place to QC within the state.

No thermal control - Technically, it's passive air cooling. Not a system build into the EV like Tesla, but while some see it as a minus, others see it as a plus. One less thing to go wrong and maintain for the Life of the vehicle. Where the OP lives, the climate is cooler, so the OP can take advantage of that. Tesla (along with other EV manufactures) sometimes have issues with the TMS, it doesn't make the news like the EV fires of the Chevy Bolt, but it is one more thing that any owner would have to check on maintenance wise; just like any other system in the car.

So given all that, unless the OP is looking for a road trip EV, there is no reason to bring up limitations and try to stir up the forum about it.

By the same logic, I could make a list why the Tesla Model 3 makes a crappy family car or daily driver and go post that in a Tesla forum

The Leaf is not half a car.

It sure is to me, but I admit that my shorthand may not appeal to everybody. I am saying that

Cold-gating
Rapid-gating
CHAdeMO
No thermal control

in concert make the LEAF a crappy road trip car. The stories of people who try it are consistent: ~ 30 mph average trip speed, so about double the travel time of an ICE or a Tesla or a handful of the most recent European EV models. And that assumes working, available CHAdeMO -- a BIG if.