Stoaty's Guide to Energy Efficient Driving of the Leaf

[planet4ever]

Why is breaking the law so coveted that ones who obey the law are so persecuted?

Strange. I had a very different reaction when reading that post.

California Department of Vehicles, Vehicle Code
21710. The driver of a motor vehicle when traveling on down grade upon any highway shall not coast with the gears of such vehicle in neutral.

Sorry, I'm going to continue to abide by the law, and not use Neutral. As far as I am concerned the intent of that section is that it is unsafe to drive with the accelerator disengaged. I am willing to get as close to Neutral as I can by watching the bubbles, though not by watching the console, which I also consider unsafe.

Ray

 

[thehelix112]

Another tip that if it's here I missed:

When travelling slowly on a multilane freeway, pick a right lane and tuck in behind a larger truck if possible. Truck drivers tend to leave more room in front, both for safety and to avoid unnecessary down shifts. This means trucks tend to travel at more consistent speeds in semi - heavy traffic. Added benefits are that people don't get angry at trucks doing this, and that there might be some aerodynamic advantage to follow a large brick through the air.

Dave

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Why is breaking the law so coveted that ones who obey the law are so persecuted?

Strange. I had a very different reaction when reading that post.

California Department of Vehicles, Vehicle Code
21710. The driver of a motor vehicle when traveling on down grade upon any highway shall not coast with the gears of such vehicle in neutral.

Sorry, I'm going to continue to abide by the law, and not use Neutral. As far as I am concerned the intent of that section is that it is unsafe to drive with the accelerator disengaged. I am willing to get as close to Neutral as I can by watching the bubbles, though not by watching the console, which I also consider unsafe.

Ray

posting from phone so not clear, but my response was to the reference of hypermilers holding up traffic by driving at or under the speed limit

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Another tip that if it's here I missed:

When travelling slowly on a multilane freeway, pick a right lane and tuck in behind a larger truck if possible. Truck drivers tend to leave more room in front, both for safety and to avoid unnecessary down shifts. This means trucks tend to travel at more consistent speeds in semi - heavy traffic. Added benefits are that people don't get angry at trucks doing this, and that there might be some aerodynamic advantage to follow a large brick through the air.

Dave

truck also takes much longer to stop, so if your reaction time is quick enough, then you can stop easily without rear ending them.

average following distance at 60 mph to draft well; 25-40 feet.

time to travel that far .284-.454 seconds.

average reaction time at age 50; .355 (i recently tested this at Pacific Science Center and despite my high state of readiness, the best I could do was .332 I am 54)

average time to brake after realization of the need; who know? but do the math. Not going to tell you its right or wrong

**note** truckers in my area do not practice any of these things. because they sit so high in the cab, they tend to follow much closer to the car in front simply because they can see the traffic flow beyond the car in front of them. of all vehicles on the road in my experience; truckers are the worst for tailgaiting.

 

[Nubo]

Why is breaking the law so coveted that ones who obey the law are so persecuted?

I've long found the phenomenon intriguing. When it comes to the speed limit, actually obeying the law brands one as an ass. The prevailing attitude is that the speed limit is a hard minimum. As in "at least do the speed limit", or "you can't even do the speed limit?". There's the law, and then there's the social norm, which as best I can tell, radically redefines proper highway speed.

Localities vary, but the following seems to be the "REAL U.S. Speed Law" in my experience, on a 65 mph highway.

Under 65 mph --- "jerks", "idiots", "a*holes", "eco-nuts" and the infirm (despised, vaguely illegal)

Exactly 65 mph --- the very old (who probably shouldn't be driving), or someone about to lose their license due to points from speeding violations (this is acceptable due to "honorably earned" status though they should really do 70).

65-70 mph -- elderly but still somewhat able, sissies, and other overly cautious people (marginally allowable, keep right)

75 mph -- normal drivers, ideal 10mph speeding (respectable)

80 mph -- people who want to make good time (respectable)

85 mph -- BMW drivers, the young, or otherwise important people (admirable, keep out of their way)

90 mph -- drivers of high-performance vehicles, young, or aggressive (acceptable, yield the left so they don't have to slow down)

95 mph -- aggressive drivers (mildly frowned upon, keep out of their way)

100 mph -- misguided drivers (dangerous, do not impede)

100+ mph -- Dangerous (illegal in certain circumstances)

120+ mph -- Dangerous (illegal in many circumstances)

130+ mph - Really dangerous (illegal in most circumstances)

 

[dgpcolorado]

...Localities vary, but the following seems to be the "REAL U.S. Speed Law" in my experience, on a 65 mph highway...

:lol: Enjoyed that! Your hyperbole aside, the phenomenon you describe makes me glad I no longer live in an area where I have to deal with all that. It is much more mellow out here in the boondocks where "highway" means two lanes, one in each direction, with an occasional short passing lane for the speeders.

 

[LEAFfan]

Why is breaking the law so coveted that ones who obey the law are so persecuted?

Strange. I had a very different reaction when reading that post.

California Department of Vehicles, Vehicle Code
21710. The driver of a motor vehicle when traveling on down grade upon any highway shall not coast with the gears of such vehicle in neutral.

Sorry, I'm going to continue to abide by the law, and not use Neutral. As far as I am concerned the intent of that section is that it is unsafe to drive with the accelerator disengaged. I am willing to get as close to Neutral as I can by watching the bubbles, though not by watching the console, which I also consider unsafe.
Ray

Sorry Ray, but your CA law says no Neutral on a down grade. It says nothing about using N on relatively flat terrain. On a down grade, I would use D, ECO, or B ECO depending on how steep.

 

[TimLee]

**note** truckers in my area do not practice any of these things. because they sit so high in the cab, they tend to follow much closer to the car in front simply because they can see the traffic flow beyond the car in front of them. of all vehicles on the road in my experience; truckers are the worst for tailgaiting.

I have not done very much strictly at the speed limit interstate driving.
But recently I was short on charge and time, and the quickest lowest energy way to get downtown was to use cruise control at the speed limit in the right lane.
The biggest problem I encountered was a truly stupid truck driver, that wanted to go 65 mph instead of the 55 mph speed limit, and for some stupid reason he was unwilling to pass.
Followed me with less than a half car length distance behind me for over 3 miles.
How stupid is he?
Doesn't he realize that if I had the car in Eco and hit the off button on the cruise control that he would plow right into the back of the LEAF? He definitely would not have time to brake, and he would have no warning other than the shrinking distance because the brake lights DO NOT LIGHT just on rapid regenerative braking.
I think NTSB needs to change the practice on that.
Regenerative braking can be almost as quick as slamming the brake pedal down hard.
It would be MUCH safer if the brake lights came on.
Although the stupid truck driver might hit you anyway.

 

[thehelix112]

That's good to know. I was actually going to have someone follow me to see if the brake lights come on. I agree that's somewhat dangerous, though you can achieve the same thing in a normal car if you're zipping along in a low gear..

Dave

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

**note** truckers in my area do not practice any of these things. because they sit so high in the cab, they tend to follow much closer to the car in front simply because they can see the traffic flow beyond the car in front of them. of all vehicles on the road in my experience; truckers are the worst for tailgaiting.

I have not done very much strictly at the speed limit interstate driving.
But recently I was short on charge and time, and the quickest lowest energy way to get downtown was to use cruise control at the speed limit in the right lane.
The biggest problem I encountered was a truly stupid truck driver, that wanted to go 65 mph instead of the 55 mph speed limit, and for some stupid reason he was unwilling to pass.
Followed me with less than a half car length distance behind me for over 3 miles.
How stupid is he?
Doesn't he realize that if I had the car in Eco and hit the off button on the cruise control that he would plow right into the back of the LEAF? He definitely would not have time to brake, and he would have no warning other than the shrinking distance because the brake lights DO NOT LIGHT just on rapid regenerative braking.
I think NTSB needs to change the practice on that.
Regenerative braking can be almost as quick as slamming the brake pedal down hard.
It would be MUCH safer if the brake lights came on.
Although the stupid truck driver might hit you anyway.

Tim, you might find it somewhat tragic to learn that WA created a new law that prevents anyone from cutting in front of a big rig too closely or prevents one from tailgaiting or being tailgated by a big rig.

now, guessing your first thought would be "we already have tailgaiting laws and others that prevent cutting other vehicles off" and I would say "so do we but for some reason WA felt the need to specialize the law"

there was a story on the news today about a Seattle City Attorney appealing a ruling to the Supreme Court in a civil suit where the judgment of One Dollar was awarded. Bill for the civil suit has recently exceeded $600,000 and will probably be near one million after the Supreme Court phase is completed. the basis of the suit is valid in my judgment but cant help but wonder why it take a million dollars to confirm the obvious.

but once again, lawyers are still hard at work doing what they can to destroy this country.

 

[BraveLittleToaster]

Also if the efficiency of regen was really 30%, where do the other 70% go? 21kW is a lot of power to dissipate and I've never noticed any of the LEAF's components in the engine compartment get even close to warm after driving it and using regen.

Most of the heat (anytime you're losing efficiency in any system, it's almost always in heat, with a little bit of sound) actually goes either into the battery where the resistance is, or into the motor. I've heard of electric race cars that used regen heavily and as a result, heated the motor up too much. Also, you'll notice that the Leaf's motor is water cooled, and that's what the radiator is for. It's also for cooling the charge. Either way, it doesn't have to work anywhere near as hard as in an ICE, so it's about half as big.

I actually wish there was a mode where regen is turned off.

There is. It's called "Neutral".

 

[BestPal]

...

I actually wish there was a mode where regen is turned off.

There is. It's called "Neutral".

That's right, but I guess what he was referring to is that it would be great to have a shiftier position where a let off gas would be equivalent of "Neutral". I too think that would be a fantastic mode to have vs. just switching to neutral that:
1. Takes a second to get into by holding the shifter to the left
2. No acceleration if you need it, so you have to switch back to D or ECO

How great would it be to have the shifter position kick to the right and you're in a NO regen mode. Tap left-down and you get the normal ECO mode or D mode with regen as usual. Eh? That's in my dream LEAF It would also have a 250 miles range in that dream

 

[LEAFfan]

I actually wish there was a mode where regen is turned off.

That's right, but I guess what he was referring to is that it would be great to have a shiftier position where a let off gas would be equivalent of "Neutral". I too think that would be a fantastic mode to have vs. just switching to neutral that:
1. Takes a second to get into by holding the shifter to the left
2. No acceleration if you need it, so you have to switch back to D or ECO

How great would it be to have the shifter position kick to the right and you're in a NO regen mode. Tap left-down and you get the normal ECO mode or D mode with regen as usual. Eh? That's in my dream LEAF It would also have a 250 miles range in that dream

1. If you hold it to the left, it takes a few secs, but throwing it in R (over 7mph) takes less than a sec.

 

[BestPal]

That's right, but I guess what he was referring to is that it would be great to have a shiftier position where a let off gas would be equivalent of "Neutral". I too think that would be a fantastic mode to have vs. just switching to neutral that:
1. Takes a second to get into by holding the shifter to the left
2. No acceleration if you need it, so you have to switch back to D or ECO

How great would it be to have the shifter position kick to the right and you're in a NO regen mode. Tap left-down and you get the normal ECO mode or D mode with regen as usual. Eh? That's in my dream LEAF It would also have a 250 miles range in that dream

1. If you hold it to the left, it takes a few secs, but throwing it in R (over 7mph) takes less than a sec.

Hold on now. I want to make sure I read it correctly. Do you mean to say I can SAFELY throw it in reverse at any speed above 7mph and it will instantly go to N and not ruin anything in the car?
I don't see why it wouldn't be possible, not like it has any gears to switch or ruin... I just wanna know for a fact before I try it on my car. Thanks.

 

[TimLee]

Hold on now. I want to make sure I read it correctly. Do you mean to say I can SAFELY throw it in reverse at any speed above 7mph and it will instantly go to N and not ruin anything in the car?
I don't see why it wouldn't be possible, not like it has any gears to switch or ruin... I just wanna know for a fact before I try it on my car. Thanks.

It works. The LEAF software will not let it go into R above 7 mph, and it very quickly, a lot <1 second goes into Neutral.
I've done it several times after reading this thread a few weeks back.

 

[Stoaty]

Hold on now. I want to make sure I read it correctly. Do you mean to say I can SAFELY throw it in reverse at any speed above 7mph and it will instantly go to N and not ruin anything in the car?
I don't see why it wouldn't be possible, not like it has any gears to switch or ruin... I just wanna know for a fact before I try it on my car. Thanks.

I have done it hundreds of times at freeway speeds. The only time I ever had a problem was when I forgot about the 7 mph limit and unthinkingly put it in reverse when going about 5 mph. Leaf stopped abruptly on the freeway and I almost got rear ended. For faster speeds, never a problem.

 

[BestPal]

I just had to run out and try it - so much faster than holding it to the left THANK YOU! Gotta be careful switching between a 5 speed manual ICE car and the Leaf now... I did throw it in Reverse coming up to a stop light - it's a second nature to me to be in N at a light. That was embarrassing even though i only moved back a foot or so before realizing my mistake, but I did get a WTF honk after I stopped my move.
I still would love to have a "no regen" mode though - as easily accessible as the Neutral. Yes I can keep one eye on the center power circle and not let it move left or right but it takes a lot of concentration. Kick to no regen and easy kick back to ECO would be a phenomenal option - kinda like driving a manual, only using regen as brakes... for the most part, of course.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I just had to run out and try it - so much faster than holding it to the left THANK YOU! Gotta be careful switching between a 5 speed manual ICE car and the Leaf now... I did throw it in Reverse coming up to a stop light - it's a second nature to me to be in N at a light. That was embarrassing even though i only moved back a foot or so before realizing my mistake, but I did get a WTF honk after I stopped my move.
I still would love to have a "no regen" mode though - as easily accessible as the Neutral. Yes I can keep one eye on the center power circle and not let it move left or right but it takes a lot of concentration. Kick to no regen and easy kick back to ECO would be a phenomenal option - kinda like driving a manual, only using regen as brakes... for the most part, of course.

A nice thing about shift-to-reverse-for-neutral is that the car beeps at you so you know you've really shifted to neutral without having to look at the dash.

But, otherwise, I rather like your idea of a new mode where there is no regen and off-the-A-pedal is neutral. But it could be dangerous to have no braking if you didn't remember that you were in that mode. The time it takes to get off the A pedal and apply brakes means the car travels farther before slowing. This is similar to having no regen at 100% charge (or very cold conditions): it is pretty disconcerting to have no braking when letting off the A pedal. Most of us are used to engine braking in ICE cars.

The advantage of actually shifting to neutral is that one does it consciously and, usually, for a limited period of time. The lack of regen braking is less likely to be a surprise.

 

[Arvind]

Stoaty, thank you for the original detailed post. There are 14 pages of comments and it will take time to search through all of them. Can you explain:

How does ECO mode affect the range? What do you use?

How does the B "gear" setting affect the range? What do you use?

Thank you for this valuable thread and for maintaining the original posting.

 

[Stoaty]

How does ECO mode affect the range? What do you use?

ECO mode has no effect on the range if you drive properly. However, I find it easier to maximize range in ECO mode, as there is stronger regen when I need it (although I try not to need regen much at all, sometimes there are sudden changes and it can't be avoided). I also tend to accelerate more slowly in ECO mode since it requires more push of the pedal. The main advantage of this is lowering your overall speed (especially in traffic) so you don't need to use regen as much. Again, the bottom line is that either D or ECO will work and can achieve the same result.

How does the B "gear" setting affect the range? What do you use?

I don't use the B gear, since it was only made available in the 2013 model year. However, any time you are slowing by a method other than air resistance, rolling resistance of the tires or an uphill grade on the road, you are losing some extra energy (because regen is not 100% efficient).