Tell Nissan to open other US markets NOW!

[tps]

If Nissan had not closed the reservation list would you still feel that you were somehow wronged? Reservations would still be coming in, the initial states would still be placing orders and receiving the first vehicles. I don’t think it matters how many times the list is opened or closed.

You're right. The problem is that Nissan's reservation website promised all of us initial reservation holders a 2011 LEAF. I saw it as somewhat strange when their timetable had me ordering my 2011 LEAF during fall/winter of 2011, because that would place me squarely in MY 2012. So I "read between the lines" and assumed I would be ordering a 2012 LEAF which would most likely be delivered sometime in spring to summer of 2012. With Nissan's latest statements, it appears that may no longer be the case; there's now the possibility I'll be ordering a 2013 LEAF, built at Smyrna, which is so far in the future I'll no try to guess when delivery might be expected.

I think everyone's frustration is that Nissan's reservation website promised us that we were in line for ordering 2011 LEAFs. The reality is that, based on Nissan's latest statements, those of us in the forgotten 36 may not really be in line at all. I think that as a start, we'd like to have some understanding of what Nissan thinks our $99 reservations mean, because it is obvious they don't mean what their website says they mean, that we're in line for 2011 LEAFs...

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Since this complaining just won't stop, let me ask one thing. If Nissan had not closed the reservation list would you still feel that you were somehow wronged? Reservations would still be coming in, the initial states would still be placing orders and receiving the first vehicles. I don’t think it matters how many times the list is opened or closed.

Complaining or being passionate about EV. To me that is a big difference. Passionate and eagerly waiting for the moment to own EV, talking and getting others to understand EV, prewired house, bought EVSE, and for some have PV system up and running. To me it means – EV big enthusiast and advocate.

Very pessimistic prediction about EV market, looks like poster believes that EV market will never gain speed and will be on reservation even during nationwide rollout.

 

[tps]

To further explain my apparently incorrect understanding of the situation, I thought that Oppama was to produce 50,000 LEAFs in MY 2011, 20,000 of which were to go to the US market. When they cut off reservations at 20,000, I (and probably others) assumed that the 20,000 production projection was connected to the 20,000 reservations they had taken. So far as I can tell, their prodution projection for MY 2011 for the US market may have dropped somewhat below 20,000, while restarting the reservation process will increase the reservation pool above 20,000. OK, if their conversion rate was 50%, maybe they need more reservations to sell all the cars Oppama will produce.

But that's not how it seems to be panning out. They are clearly delaying the forgotten 36 even further than they said last time: fall/winter of 2011. Now it's 2012, which could mean January 2012, which wouldn't really be a change, or it could mean December 2012, which would be a BIG change. And then there's the ominous rumor connecting the forgotten 36 to Smyrna, which might bring us to a 2013 order date.

Since we have no hard infomation from Nissan as to what the $99 deposit means for someone like me in the forgotten 36, I'll crank up the rumor mill a bit here. Nissan has had 2 rollout problems already which have set back their rollout, the tsunami and the A/C restart problem, so maybe they won't make it to their original goal of 20,000 US 2011 LEAFs. Add to this the strong yen, which cuts into their profit, or, if they're selling at a loss, increases their losses. When you look at it this way, it makes some business sense for Nissan to concentrate their Oppama efforts on the rollout states. They've started the ball rolling in those states and it would look bad if the pipeline were to dry up. My guess is that they'll stall the Tier 2 states as long as they think they can get away with since that ball is not in-play yet, and that the forgotten 36 are not even on their radar right now. This would allow them to shift as much of the US production to Smyrna as possible, which makes econonic sense.

Note that all of this speculation is strictly rumor-mill stuff, I don't have anything to back it up. However, I'd still like to know what Nissan thinks my $99 deposit means...

 

[garrytman]

Here's an email I received this morning.

"I understand your concerns and frustrations. I wish I had a better answer for you at this time. What I can say is, if CT starts to show an abundance of interest in the LEAF, then we would change our order of distribution. At this time, when we say the infrastructure is not in place, we are referring to the fact that the state doesn't have charging stations out in the public area, they don't yet have plans to do this, or the Nissan Dealers are not yet certified for service on the LEAF.
 
The good news is, that you said your Governor is trying to get the state ready for EVs. I'd ask that you try and be patient, since this is a new process for all of us. We were testing the water, starting on the West coast, and didn't realize that so many people all over the U.S. would be so interested in the LEAF.
 
In summary, Mr. Thibodeau, I want you to stay excited about the LEAF. The LEAF is coming to you, it just may take some time. We got word that the time from order to delivery has been shortened to 90 to 120 days. This is great because we are going to get the LEAFs out sooner and move to the East coast that much quicker. We appreciate you as a potential customer. We want you as a customer. I hope you stay with us and wait to get your LEAF."

 

[tps]

Here's an email I received this morning.

"I understand your concerns and frustrations. I wish I had a better answer for you at this time."

But they still didn't answer the question: "What does a $99 deposit in the forgotten 36 mean?"

 

[NullPointer]

But they still didn't answer the question: "What does a $99 deposit in the forgotten 36 mean?"

It means you'll get to order before others in your area who have not put down a $99 deposit. When your area opens up for orders. Which is essentially what they've said all along. This could still be valuable if production is limited at that point.

How exactly do you think they should answer your question? There could be too many unknowns for them to be more specific than what they have already said.

I think anyone expecting guarantees on delivery date or a specific model year based on just a refundable $99 deposit is deluding themselves, especially for the launch of a new product. It's not like you're putting down $5K for a Model S. Nissan probably just wanted to gauge interest by geographic region.

 

[tps]

But they still didn't answer the question: "What does a $99 deposit in the forgotten 36 mean?"

It means you'll get to order before others in your area who have not put down a $99 deposit.

Can you point me to a place where Nissan actually says that? At the bottom of my dashboard it shows "My 2011 Nissan LEAF", which I've supposely reserved. That's what the official Nissan reservation site says my $99 was for... I guess Nissan is deluding me.

Given what Nissan has said lately, my reservation is likely not for a 2011 Nissan Leaf. What will Nissan do with those of us who hold reservations for 2011 LEAFs as MY 2012 approaches? Do we go through the process or selecting trim level, options (if available), and color again so that our web pages can now show "My 2012 LEAF"? If those of us who are in the forgotten 36 have to wait for Smyrna, what makes you believe that Nissan will keep the existing reservation system alive that long?

I'm willing to wait, unless something better comes along. But I can understand the frustration of others, who like me thought that we'd be getting a LEAF out of the first 20,000 made for the US at Oppama. If Nissan's plan is now to make us wait until Smyrna, and even if it isn't, we'd just like to know what we can expect.

 

[charlie1300]

I'm trying to figure what facts got us to "the forgotten 36 have to wait until Symrna". Because some random Temp hired by Nissan for the weekend at the DC drive event decided to say that? I went to the Tampa event and 50% of what the Temp said there was total BS. The drive event temps and the hired guns at CS are very nice people, but there is no evidence I've seen that they really have any "inside" information. Certainly the disaster in Japan threw Nissan back several months or more in terms of production, but they will still be able to produce a lot of Leafs in Japan before Symrna comes on line. Where are they going to send them if not to the US?
It's been clear to me for a long time that as a member of the forgotten 36, I would be ordering a 2012MY Leaf, regardless of what the silly website said.
and what do I get for my $99 deposit? Not much, because it's not much of a deposit. If I had plunked down 10% of the MSRP (rather than 0.2% of MSRP), I would be a little more perturbed. As it is, my expectations are along the lines of what NullPointer said.

 

[NullPointer]

At the bottom of my dashboard it shows "My 2011 Nissan LEAF", which I've supposely reserved. That's what the official Nissan reservation site says my $99 was for...

Nissan never said your $99 was for a MY 2011. At the bottom of your dashboard, click on "view trim levels & pricing" and read the fine print:

"Initially available only through online reservation process in limited quantities in select markets and states. Increased availability in late Spring 2011 with full market rollout through 2012. ... MSRP subject to change. MY 2012 MSRP to be announced later."

Given what Nissan has said lately, my reservation is likely not for a 2011 Nissan Leaf. What will Nissan do with those of us who hold reservations for 2011 LEAFs as MY 2012 approaches? Do we go through the process or selecting trim level, options (if available), and color again so that our web pages can now show "My 2012 LEAF"? If those of us who are in the forgotten 36 have to wait for Smyrna, what makes you believe that Nissan will keep the existing reservation system alive that long?

If Nissan's plan is now to make us wait until Smyrna, and even if it isn't, we'd just like to know what we can expect.

They'll update the website with MY 2012 pricing, trim levels and colors, a new email will appear in your inbox stating "FANTASTIC NEW OPTIONS" and you'll be able to update your reservation. Possibly the existing reservation system won't be needed at some point, in which case I imagine they would throw existing reservation holders some kind of bone by allowing them to order earlier than others.

For competitive reasons, they are not going to tell you anything until they are ready to do so.

 

[N952JL]

I have a question. My last two post to this topic show up right after I post, but do not show up on the lists. Why?

 

[tps]

I'm trying to figure what facts got us to "the forgotten 36 have to wait until Symrna".

There are no facts which get us there, and no one seems to have come up with a fact that explains exactly what our $99 gets us. Most everything, including my speculation about Smyrna, is purely rumor and speculation, so far as I can see.

A fact we have is that Nissan intends to reopen reservation in the initial rollout states. We do have evidence, from previous reservation holders in those states, that a $99 reservation in a rollout state puts one into a sometimes crooked line to order a LEAF.

I do want a LEAF and I will keep my reservation in case Nissan, in the future, defines it to mean something specific, such as "I get to order ahead of non-reservation holders in my area", but this too is speculation and wishful thinking, at this point.

To quote from "Plan 9": "We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I will spend the rest of our lives. And remember, future events like these will affect you, in the future!"

 

[N952JL]

I have found this tread very interesting to read. I have also found that two of my more lengthy posts did not make it into the thread, but my short one and two medium ones did.

Everyone is now wondering what exactly did our 99 deposit buy us if anything? With the exchange of money, most of which was collected a year ago, there is a legally binding contract. What that contract is, I guess is up to everyone's interpertation.

I have called Nissan, and have sent them an email asking what this contract is. If and when I receive a reply I will be happy to post it.

 

[charlie1300]

Your $99 got you the right to request a full refund at any time. You could certainly take legal action if they refused your request for a refund. As far as anything else, Nissan decides what you reservation gets you, and your recourse if you don't like it is to request a refund. If you read carefully, there aren't any other commitments. There may be comments or allusions that you may have optimistically interpreted as commitments, but that's just clever marketing.

 

[relytgerg]

People seem perplexed about how some of us ever got the impression that Tier 2 and Tier 3 registrants would get their Nissan Leafs any earlier than it now appears they will. Let me explain how we got that impression.

To make sure I didn't imagine it, I did a quick five minute search on the topic and found the following quotes:

"Speaking at a Saturday press conference in front of San Francisco city hall, Tavares said that all 20,000 Leaf reservations will be filled by the end of summer 2011." - http://www.autoweek.com/article/20101213/CARREVIEWS/101219986

"Customers registered to buy a Nissan Leaf electric car will take delivery before summer is over, the carmaker said yesterday.'" - http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20030966-54.html

"Nissan is 'still targeting 25000 reservations by December 2010 and will be able deliver most during (the) model year.' Mark also added in respect to the reservations themselves, and how many actual orders this process could lead to, that Nissan '…expects and are planning for (a) high percentage of reservations to convert to orders but will have solid forecast in a few months.'” - http://www.mynissanleaf.com/posting.php?mode=reply&f=4&t=3466

Call these misquotes by the bloggers or websites involved if you want, but you can see how those of us who have followed the Leaf looking for some indications of when ours might arrive would be led to the conclusion that we'd get it by "summer of 2011."

That search took about five minutes. I'm sure with a little more time I could come up with dozens of similar quotes to prove my point.

Nissan obviously has not done a good job of being consistent with their message, nor clarifying their message when needed. From where I sit Nissan has been particularly quiet and has communicated little or nothing to me as a registrant. Even a "please be patient while we figure this out" type of message would be better than no message at all.

Those types of messages from Nissan followed by an announcement contradicting those statements and allowing others to leapfrog me is what upset me and prompted me to contact Nissan via multiple channels about this situation.

No, I didn't imagine it.

I still think the Leaf is an excellent product and needs to be rolled out ASAP. I'm just not happy with Nissan being (from my point of view) unfair and dishonest with the customers they registered in the first 20,000 that will now have to wait even longer and be even further back in the overall line.

 

[tps]

Your $99 got you the right to request a full refund at any time.

That is about as useful as a sign which says "Please keep off this sign." I don't think anyone signed up with the idea that the only thing they were getting ws the right to request a refund...

 

[Stoaty]

That is about as useful as a sign which says "Please keep off this sign." I don't think anyone signed up with the idea that the only thing they were getting ws the right to request a refund...

OK, you also got a place in line to order a Nissan Leaf once Nissan opens up orders to your state. Unfortunately, Nissan has decided (probably for business reasons) to limit the rollout area for a longer time than they had previously anticipated. Seriously, this is really beating a dead horse.

 

[tps]

Nissan is 'still targeting 25000 reservations by December 2010 and will be able deliver most during (the) model year.

I think that Nissan's original intent was that all of the original reservation holders who converted to buyers would get MY 2011 LEAFs. But somewhere the plan changed. Maybe the first that we saw of their change of plan was when they abruptly cut off reservations at the 20,000 mark at the end of September, rather than continue toward their original goal of 25,000. Remember their statement then, about response being greater than anticipated? Maybe the unspoken part was that the response in the non-rollout states exceeded their expectation, because the total number of reservations was probably on-track to their goal of 25,000. If this is true, maybe they felt they just couldn't roll out the service infrastructure quickly enough to support the number of LEAFs which had been reserved outside the rollout area. While this may have been the beginning of their change-of-plan, I'm guessing that they've made some other changes between then and now in response to the Japanese diversion, the strong yen, and the technical glitches. For the few who try to read more into my posts than intended, this is all speculation on my part, because Nissan has given us no real information...

 

[evnow]

I think it is quite clear that Leaf delivery for non-launch states have been postponed by Nissan. Afterall they had given months in which various states would be allowed to order which they cancelled, at the last minute.

I still think it is a combination of
- Cold weather package
- Logistical problems within Nissan / dealer network
- Non-response or non-enthusiastic response from local authorities
- Low response in particular states

Nissan can only talk about 1 & 2, even though they have inted at the 3rd as well.

In some of the states, if the response so far is low, it is possible they won't yet spend the resources/time needed to rollout the car.

But, I'm completely behind any effort to force Nissan to speed up the process. Enthusiasts in these states deserve to get cars early, just like in the launch states.

 

[tps]

OK, you also got a place in line to order a Nissan Leaf once Nissan opens up orders to your state. Unfortunately, Nissan has decided (probably for business reasons) to limit the rollout area for a longer time than they had previously anticipated. Seriously, this is really beating a dead horse.

But my whole point is that Nissan doesn't say that. They let us assume that, or whatever we want to assume. The point of my last few posts is that Nissan needs to tell us what the $99 reservation actually means, because it apparently doesn't mean what they originally told us it meant.

 

[Stoaty]

But my whole point is that Nissan doesn't say that. They let us assume that, or whatever we want to assume. The point of my last few posts is that Nissan needs to tell us what the $99 reservation actually means, because it apparently doesn't mean what they originally told us it meant.

I doubt they are going to give you any information, since their plans could change again and they don't want to be held to promises they can't keep. So, the assumption is probably the best you are going to get. Frustrating, but I can see their side of it too.