The 62kWh Battery Topic

[SageBrush]

I think leaf owners have been so bruised (though my experience has been great) that they are somewhat numb by now.

The active LEAF community has shrunk to a remnant of its former self. You just have to look around this forum to see that once you exclude the top 5 prolific posters, very little activity remains and most of the 'new' people are here to buy cheap beaters. Expertise is mostly gone. A large fraction of the 'bruised' are healing up nicely over in Tesla land.

MNL and CHAdeMO are following similar paths

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I think leaf owners have been so bruised (though my experience has been great) that they are somewhat numb by now.

The active LEAF community has shrunk to a remnant of its former self. You just have to look around this forum to see that once you exclude the top 5 prolific posters, very little activity remains and most of the 'new' people are here to buy cheap beaters. Expertise is mostly gone. A large fraction of the 'bruised' are healing up nicely over in Tesla land.

MNL and CHAdeMO are following similar paths

This is true to a point but the larger LEAF pack is gaining a new audience. Too early to tell even with 2½ year old 40 kwh packs but prelim info seems good. No bars lost (or at least admitted on social media) We have people over 60,000 miles and anywhere from 86% (disappointing but done under VERY severe conditions) to a 90¾% and have seen degradation rates plummet in the 2nd year.

We can debate whether no TMS for a cheaper product was a good or bad idea but what is obvious is that 24 kwh was simply not enough battery. Every manufacturer who put out the smaller pack had significant degradation that didn't slow down after the "break in" period.

Either way if the Gen One LEAF ends up only being known as having stocked the low end used EV market, i am ok with that. For many, it is the taste that will get them over that last hurdle.

 

[SageBrush]

Too early to tell even with 2½ year old 40 kwh packs but prelim info seems good.

Do you know of any fleet data ? I was looking at the plug-in america database the other day and saw too few 40 kWh pack entries to bother with. I took it to mean that there relatively few owners, and even fewer that are interested enough to provide reports, but it is possible that a different database has become popular. I'm not sure who the audience of 40 kWh LEAFs is, but there are multiple hints that it is not the EV enthusiast/Geek crowd.

Perhaps the author of LeafSpy would be willing to collect SOH health from the users -- assuming of course that 40 kWh owners use LeafSpy in adequate numbers.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Too early to tell even with 2½ year old 40 kwh packs but prelim info seems good.

Do you know of any fleet data ? I was looking at the plug-in america database the other day and saw too few 40 kWh pack entries to bother with. I took it to mean that there relatively few owners, and even fewer that are interested enough to provide reports, but it is possible that a different database has become popular. I'm not sure who the audience of 40 kWh LEAFs is, but there are multiple hints that it is not the EV enthusiast/Geek crowd.

Perhaps the author of LeafSpy would be willing to collect SOH health from the users -- assuming of course that 40 kWh owners use LeafSpy in adequate numbers.

No fleet info and most of the 40 kwh data I have gathered is too vague to evaluate other than basic numbers despite several requests for clarification.

But we have Jennifer who has a 40 @65k miles and 86% SOC who was a gig driver in Phoenix and has chronicled a lot of her efforts in cooling the battery (ice packs, etc) because she was doing full charges in the afternoon to drive at night.

But we also have Gregory who is just under 60K living in WA State who is just below 91% who lost (like most of us) about 7% in the first year

Then there is a real estate guy in Atlanta who "should" be nearing 70,000 miles who was at 92% last report (back in Feb-mar) VERY interested in where he is at now but haven't seen recent updates from him.

Most of the rest i am tracking are between 89-93% but with significantly less mileage. A few are just now hitting 30,000 miles but mileage doesn't seem to matter as I know a Canadian with just over 10,000 miles who is also at 91% SOC so...

 

[SageBrush]

I went back to the PIA data and found LEAFs that are at least 3 years old and still have 12 capacity bars. Of the 650 entries in the database, 45 matched that criteria. Then I made a map of those entries
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16i0lb2lEtrSP4qrwRSLCAb5U7dvPAgYT/view?usp=sharing

(The map is too big to fit comfortably in a message, so click on the link instead)

One should not calculate 45/650 as the ratio of cars that lose less than 15% SoC in 3 years because it is possible that an owner e.g. had 12 bars at 4 years old and then subsequently reported 11 bars at 5 years old. The database I used only includes the most recent report of each car. The map can be used to say something about where healthier batteries live. However, I cannot distinguish between a location where the LEAF has lived its entire life Vs only the most recent part of its life. I would be skeptical of locations with only one pin unless a wider area has multiple pins.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I just saw a post today on facebook under the thread asking for families with 2 Evs that mentioned his/her 2018 Leaf was already over 100K miles. I have inquired about battery status.

I do wish Nissan (don't want to say hope for a hacker like what happened to Tesla) would share some of that data on the 2018 and 2019 Leaf and Leaf Plus degradation.

 

[jlsoaz]

These may be outliers, but quite a few threads of M3 owners down 15% or more within first 2 years.

One of the reasons I am a bit wary of a used non-mid- or long-range model three is that the vehicle is highly efficient and they are doing more with less kWh, which is great, except I remain aware that there are less kWh there, so when it does start to degrade, I don't know what to expect. Even when new, the range is at the lower end of what I would regard as acceptable for my needs, so I have been careful not to get too wrapped up in thinking around buying a used M3. They have been over-priced (in my view) anyway, so that has made it easier to lay off of them. In that video I posted, it also talked about one of the factors in battery pack degradation was keeping the range of discharge in a narrow band. Perhaps in theory this is not harder to do in a somewhat smaller pack when each kWh is being used much more efficiently, but in my mind, at some point a smaller pack is a smaller pack, so it got me to wondering a little bit.

To tie this into 62 kWh Leaf, here again, the range when new is in theory good, but it is at the lower end of what I'd prefer, and assuming the degradation may (or may not) be worse than what I'd like (given the lack of liquid cooling, and the climate I am in), so far the 62 kWh for me is a no-go (even for serious consideration), whether used or new.

 

[cwerdna]

so I have been careful not to get too wrapped up in thinking around buying a used M3. They have been over-priced (in my view) anyway, so that has made it easier to lay off of them. In that video I posted, it also talked about one of the factors in battery pack degradation was keeping the range of discharge in a narrow band. Perhaps in theory this is not harder to do in a somewhat smaller pack when each kWh is being used much more efficiently, but in my mind, at some point a smaller pack is a smaller pack, so it got me to wondering a little bit.

Since you mention over-priced... used Bolts are cheap, in comparison: https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?mdId=36274172&mkId=20053&page=1&perPage=20&rd=99999&searchSource=GN_REFINEMENT&sort=price-lowest&stkTypId=28881&zc=85641.

Unfortunately, you need a '19+ Bolt to get the charger limiter tab (1:55 into https://insideevs.com/news/339311/video-overview-2019-chevy-bolt-gives-drivers-more-control/).

Bolts before '19 only have a hilltop reserve on/off toggle, so you'd have to terminate charging early via other means (e.g. timers, unplugging early, etc.) if you don't want to get too full. And, unfortunately on Bolts before '19, if you want thermal management to cool to 27 C (80.6 F) while plugging in (https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/battery-conditioning.33279/#post-512173), you have no choice but to let the car charge until it reaches hilltop reserve or full or you unplug early/cut it off w/timer. But when inhibited via timer or unplugged (and car off), who knows when the Bolt cools the battery and to how low?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

These may be outliers, but quite a few threads of M3 owners down 15% or more within first 2 years.

One of the reasons I am a bit wary of a used non-mid- or long-range model three is that the vehicle is highly efficient and they are doing more with less kWh, which is great, except I remain aware that there are less kWh there, so when it does start to degrade, I don't know what to expect. Even when new, the range is at the lower end of what I would regard as acceptable for my needs, so I have been careful not to get too wrapped up in thinking around buying a used M3. They have been over-priced (in my view) anyway, so that has made it easier to lay off of them. In that video I posted, it also talked about one of the factors in battery pack degradation was keeping the range of discharge in a narrow band. Perhaps in theory this is not harder to do in a somewhat smaller pack when each kWh is being used much more efficiently, but in my mind, at some point a smaller pack is a smaller pack, so it got me to wondering a little bit.

To tie this into 62 kWh Leaf, here again, the range when new is in theory good, but it is at the lower end of what I'd prefer, and assuming the degradation may (or may not) be worse than what I'd like (given the lack of liquid cooling, and the climate I am in), so far the 62 kWh for me is a no-go (even for serious consideration), whether used or new.

What range are you using when you say the Plus is "barely acceptable" when new? Realize the EPA rating should be used as a guideline only and if driving conservatively, you can expect more. IMHO, I think Nissan wants us to limit our driving to the 226 mile rating but there is nearly 10% hidden.

Its kinda funny because the Model 3 being overpriced is the reason I have the Plus. It was "one" of my plans to return the 40 at the end of the lease (which would be this coming Feb) and get a used Model 3 but seeing the crazy used car prices, I realized that was not going to work so the Plus became an option especially with the deal I got.

 

[jlsoaz]

so I have been careful not to get too wrapped up in thinking around buying a used M3. They have been over-priced (in my view) anyway, so that has made it easier to lay off of them. In that video I posted, it also talked about one of the factors in battery pack degradation was keeping the range of discharge in a narrow band. Perhaps in theory this is not harder to do in a somewhat smaller pack when each kWh is being used much more efficiently, but in my mind, at some point a smaller pack is a smaller pack, so it got me to wondering a little bit.

Since you mention over-priced... used Bolts are cheap, in comparison: https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?mdId=36274172&mkId=20053&page=1&perPage=20&rd=99999&searchSource=GN_REFINEMENT&sort=price-lowest&stkTypId=28881&zc=85641.

Unfortunately, you need a '19+ Bolt to get the charger limiter tab (1:55 into https://insideevs.com/news/339311/video-overview-2019-chevy-bolt-gives-drivers-more-control/).

Bolts before '19 only have a hilltop reserve on/off toggle, so you'd have to terminate charging early via other means (e.g. timers, unplugging early, etc.) if you don't want to get too full. And, unfortunately on Bolts before '19, if you want thermal management to cool to 27 C (80.6 F) while plugging in (https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/battery-conditioning.33279/#post-512173), you have no choice but to let the car charge until it reaches hilltop reserve or full or you unplug early/cut it off w/timer. But when inhibited via timer or unplugged (and car off), who knows when the Bolt cools the battery and to how low?

Thanks, I wonder why Chevy made such a basic feature not available on the 2017-2018 versions? That point about cooling also is something I didn't know, and would be relevant to me (in Arizona) thanks.

Still, yes, I would consider (once my funds are replenished from needed work on my house) a used Bolt, and I"m aware they're lower priced than a used Tesla, but I would also have to grit my teeth. Chevy and GM could have (in my view) done way (way) better in terms of segment and luxury and driveability and so-on... and in my view they chose not to. Not my fault. The only reason I would even allow a used Bolt into the conversation at this point is price, and yes, so far reportedly they are holding up relatively well, on balance.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
As for feature, beats me. At least Bolt's hilltop reserve toggle is better than Nissan axing the 80% toggle starting with model year '14 Leaf.

Some folks in hot climates have sworn their Bolt battery thermal management has kicked in when unplugged and car is off, but if anyone said they knew the temp thresholds (battery temp needed and what it'd cool to), I've missed it.

I guess a mitigation from the battery getting to full is to use the L1 120 volt EVSE amps, leave it at the default of 8 amps and don't start with the battery too full. As you could imagine 120 volt * 8 amps = 960 watts --> very long time to fill a 60 kWh battery, esp. if some energy is used to run thermal management.

 

[jlsoaz]

These may be outliers, but quite a few threads of M3 owners down 15% or more within first 2 years.

One of the reasons I am a bit wary of a used non-mid- or long-range model three is that the vehicle is highly efficient and they are doing more with less kWh, which is great, except I remain aware that there are less kWh there, so when it does start to degrade, I don't know what to expect. Even when new, the range is at the lower end of what I would regard as acceptable for my needs, so I have been careful not to get too wrapped up in thinking around buying a used M3. They have been over-priced (in my view) anyway, so that has made it easier to lay off of them. In that video I posted, it also talked about one of the factors in battery pack degradation was keeping the range of discharge in a narrow band. Perhaps in theory this is not harder to do in a somewhat smaller pack when each kWh is being used much more efficiently, but in my mind, at some point a smaller pack is a smaller pack, so it got me to wondering a little bit.

To tie this into 62 kWh Leaf, here again, the range when new is in theory good, but it is at the lower end of what I'd prefer, and assuming the degradation may (or may not) be worse than what I'd like (given the lack of liquid cooling, and the climate I am in), so far the 62 kWh for me is a no-go (even for serious consideration), whether used or new.

What range are you using when you say the Plus is "barely acceptable" when new? Realize the EPA rating should be used as a guideline only and if driving conservatively, you can expect more. IMHO, I think Nissan wants us to limit our driving to the 226 mile rating but there is nearly 10% hidden.

Its kinda funny because the Model 3 being overpriced is the reason I have the Plus. It was "one" of my plans to return the 40 at the end of the lease (which would be this coming Feb) and get a used Model 3 but seeing the crazy used car prices, I realized that was not going to work so the Plus became an option especially with the deal I got.

Since I will likely be buying used, I try to assume some amount of degradation from the range-when-new claims. So, I use a range of about 250-300 miles to say what I want, and then if it only degrades about 10-[edit] 15% by the time I buy it, 5 or 8 years after it is new , then I can have a decent 200+ mile real-world car. I drove a 2012 Leaf, in a hilly county with not a single public station, so I have a have developed a pretty good idea of what my needs and wants are in this arena. I seldom take long road trips, but once in awhile I am in a situation, sometimes not near DCFC, where I really need that flexibility to drive another 50-100 miles in a different direction.

As to pressing the limits, if I spend more than I have any business spending on a car that is a want and not a need (I have a Volt, it works, I have the pink slip, so I can't claim I need basic transport), and take out for me what is a massive loan, I'm not likely to drive it particularly slowly to save a few kWh here or there. Fortunately my Volt is still working ok, so that leaves me in a position to bide my time a bit longer and see if I can get my hands on something better for my needs, or perhaps a bridge vehicle such as a used Bolt that would allow me to drive BEV until finally I can get something that is more my speed. I'd like to consider an i-Pace in a few years, depending on how the batteries hold up.

edit/addendum: pehaps a different/less-argumentative way for me to state what I want/need in a used BEV is that, going by the EPA ranges-when-new on the mid- and long-range M3, yes, I could go for that, whereas the range on the standard+ M3 is not as interesting to me. Likewise, when I look at used model S, I basically don't consider 60 kWh ones unless it's a particularly good deal, but the 70, 75, 85 variants have epa ranges-when new that make me think they would be better for my needs when bought used *if* the batteries have held up well, or have been replaced and the new ones are holding up wel.

 

[SageBrush]

I have a Volt, it works, I have the pink slip, so I can't claim I need basic transport

Why aren't you satisfied with the Volt ? You seem like the perfect owner, motivated to use the EV part of the car daily
I think I was the one who steered you towards a plug-in hybrid, so I have to take responsibility

 

[jlsoaz]

I have a Volt, it works, I have the pink slip, so I can't claim I need basic transport

Why aren't you satisfied with the Volt ? You seem like the perfect owner, motivated to use the EV part of the car daily
I think I was the one who steered you towards a plug-in hybrid, so I have to take responsibility

The Volt has been a decent compromise until I can get my hands on a used proper long-range BEV, move to a city that doesn't require me to own a vehicle, or maybe society will evolve enough away from vehicle ownership (perhaps I can subscribe to a polestar BEV someday?). It has also helped me keep up my EV driver community involvement, which I like, and to administer to a charge station that I help with. It's a longshot, but it's slightly possible that someday I would have it modded to burn biofuels, and so make it lower or zero carbon.

I've been advocating and following and participating in the industry for awhile, so I don't remember who said what, and I appreciate it if you gave me thoughts on the Volt, but I had a decent idea going in of what I was getting .... basically I needed a bridge solution while I waited for the automakers to get off their behinds and start putting more choice of good long-range BEVs into the marketplace so they could age and I could buy one used and avoid the costs of depreciation.

Another thing that will impact my future decisions will be to observe how each of the automakers treats the issue of replacing batteries and other important potentially costly components, and how they treat used owners in general. I would be more reluctant to buy a used long-range BEV if I observe the manufacturer to be non-transparent or unhelpful in its treatment of owners of 5-10-20+ year old vehicles. On the other hand, if they are up-front and helpful and transparent and make an effort to address cost and maintenance issues, then I will be likely to consider them more strongly. Examples of this would be:
- making an effort to guard that well-maintained used long-range BEVs from this era still have access to DCFC in 5-10-20+ years.
- reasonable battery replacement terms, including moderate costs of labor, modular replacement if that will be advisable, up-front transparency on costs, and maybe a real effort is made to replace old packs with the latest higher-energy battery.
- Improved transparency on tracking identification numbers on packs, motors and other items so one can tell, readily and hassle-free, whether a used EV has had such items replaced.

I'm laying these points out because I want manufacturers to know that how they respond represents an opportunity for them to win my business. The purchase of the used vehicle might or might not be directly from them, but it will help buttress the market value of their new vehicles if their used vehicles develop a good reputation for having the manufacturer stand behind them, and it also helps their (or their dealer) business in long-term service and maintenance and parts relationships.

 

[SageBrush]

The Volt has been a decent compromise until I can get my hands on a used proper long-range BEV

Same question -- why are you not satisfied with the Volt ?

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I am starting to feel like that generational gap is starting to catch me. While I understand in concept the benefits of vehicle sharing, and for work have used UBER many many times, I don't want to share my car....maybe only begrudgingly with my young adult children.

Its a personal space, not an investment. Bad for environment for everyone to have their own car...yes, but still there is an emotional quotient about it.

 

[SageBrush]

I am starting to feel like that generational gap is starting to catch me. While I understand in concept the benefits of vehicle sharing, and for work have used UBER many many times, I don't want to share my car....maybe only begrudgingly with my young adult children.

Its a personal space, not an investment. Bad for environment for everyone to have their own car...yes, but still there is an emotional quotient about it.

I can see how that could happen.

I'm the opposite. I grew up with public transport and a bicycle so a personal vehicle feels like insanity to me. insane, as in 'why is this huge vehicle, hogging 30 meters of road, carrying only one person ?'

 

[jlsoaz]

The Volt has been a decent compromise until I can get my hands on a used proper long-range BEV

Same question -- why are you not satisfied ?

Sorry, I thought I had somewhat responded, and as well, in retrospect, I was overly-careful in my reply and did not speak freely.

1) I've advocated for and followed the EV industry for about 30 years, consider myself a long-time net-zero-carbon warrior, and have been industry-involved in an obscure way off and on for some time. So - there was absolutely no way a gasoline PHEV was going to be my final resting spot. BTW, about half my miles are gasoline. The previous owner lived in a different area and had a different lifestyle and used less gasoline per mile.

2) I am satisfied with the Volt as the compromise (on Carbon, on cost, on vehicle size, on anticipated maintenance concerns, etc.) I knew it to be going in. I needed it to bridge my gap to when the vehicles I want are ready. I'm also very satisfied though on one metric which is important to me, which is keeping involved with some in the EV community.

3) I'm dissatisfied, as you put it, in the same way that any person is dissatisfied with a solution they knew going in is a temporary stop-gap compromise measure. I had incandescent bulbs at one time, moved to CFL for a bit, but got into LED as soon as I could. Was CFL bad? Well, it was a compromise, and it had bad qualities, such as containing mercury.

4) The battery is showing some wear-and-tear, though I don't want to make overmuch fuss about it. Realistic EV range now hovers in the 30 mile area, give or take, in various seasons and I had enough "propulsion power reduced" error messages that I had to look into this with the local Chevy service. They took up enough of my time and GM or the dealer pushed back hard enough on making it a slog to fix permanently that I had to make a personal decision and I decided not to pursue it further. I just don't have the time or stamina right now for a battle to get a vehicle battery addressed. Also, I learned a lesson (from what little I understand) about staying in mountain mode more often and avoiding parking the vehicle in the middle of a trip when the EV miles are at zero (this seems to lead to the PPR errors more often). That is getting geeky, but the point here is that it increases my use of gasoline a bit, and raises concerns about
- battery life
- manufacturer battery repair and replacement policies.
- safety of car to the next owner who may not know better about how to avoid PPR and how to handle it when they occur (probably not safe if PPR kicks in at awkward moments, such as taking a left through an intersection).
- overall value of vehicle.

5) I mentioned Carbon. I fully expect and intend to continue to argue for, the price of carbon polluting to rise, and in general for pollution presently labeled as free externality to be re-categorized as costly and taxable harm to others' property. That may be fully in-line with the views of some others, and against the views of some, but I think what's additionally relevant here is that these are future cost considerations, and all vehicle owners have to take those into account. I am guessing (and advocating for) higher carbon pollution costs in the future, and this will mean that my Volt will be more costly than I want. (BTW, my Leaf license plate said 0 CO2, whereas my Volt license plate says LOW GHG).

6) Here and there I run into the maintenance aspects on the conventional gasoline/mechanical side. I would like to avoid those, as possible. It's going to bother me if part of the reason I have to put off purchase of a good used BEV is that I had to sink more money into gasoline-engine related stuff on my PHEV.

A minor probably-not-going-to-matter counter-argument to all this is that I can see paying someone to mod my vehicle so it will burn E-85. I suppose I could keep it, if I could pull that off, but I doubt I have anything resembling the time or money it would probably take to do that in a relaxed for the heck of it way.

Can I say with a straight face that the Volt is on balance one of the better vehicles I have owned and that I am quite satisfied it served my needs, and was quite reliable, for a few years? Yes I absolutely can. But the question here was (in my interpretation of the question) to lay out why it will not be my final resting point, so it may come across as critical and over-thinking it, but I was trying to answer the question. I (hopefully) don't dwell on the above points quite as much as it may sound. I did learn (hopefully) a lesson a long time ago that if I have the pink slip to a car I really like (in my case, it was a wonderful old Acura Integra stick that worked really well), then I should really appreciate it and value it and not over-think it, though eventually if there is a compelling reason I can move to something even better.

 

[jlsoaz]

Same question -- why are you not satisfied ?

One other point - From about 1998-2017, when I first started thinking about PHEVs until when I owned one, I developed a lot of ideas of what I liked about them. I did have a pretty good idea by 2017 of what I wouldn't like, but still, I was probably a bit more focused on what I could like. So, from 2017 through today, in my ownership of the Volt, I have confirmed a few things. I do think if it was flex-fuel, I was be trying less hard to ditch it, because technically I could make it nearly-zero-carbon even if a lot of E-85 is presently higher carbon than it should be.

 

[SageBrush]

^^
I'm following now (I think). Thanks for the insight. I pulled two majors:

1. Your specific car is a bit flaky, and GM has been GM-ish.
2. You average 60 miles between charges and the car can EV ~ 30. You would like a larger fraction to be EV

----
As a former PHEV owner, I am not surprised by your stance and I found myself in the same position as you in regards to (2). It is in a way amusing that (2) has three different groups: those that like driving EV to save money; those that want EV to reduce pollution; and lastly, those that learn to *really* dislike ICE driving due to the noise and driving dynamics. Often there is overlap.

Since you seem to fall into the environmental group, I would like to mention that your money will go farther with PV and some home improvements than upgrading your car.

Anyway, Good Luck and thanks for the discussion