The 62kWh Battery Topic

[cwerdna]

, in my ownership of the Volt, I have confirmed a few things. I do think if it was flex-fuel, I was be trying less hard to ditch it, because technically I could make it nearly-zero-carbon even if a lot of E-85 is presently higher carbon than it should be.

Re: flex-fuel, I can't speak to now but in the past, the reasons for automakers adding flex fuel was to give an artificial CAFE mileage boost for an automaker and the CAFE fleet that would need it most is "light trucks". The 3 fleets for CAFE are DP, IP and LT. (DP = domestic passenger cars, IP = imported PC).

I've posted about this before at https://priuschat.com/threads/e-85-ethanol.93588/#post-1321569 and post 24 of https://web.archive.org/web/20120808101122/http://my350z.com/forum/other-vehicles/221422-altima-hybrid-pics-2.html.

There used to be a great table of which vehicles were FFV but it might be gone now. https://www.michigan.gov/documents/How_to_Identify_Flexible_Fuel_Vehicles_161774_7.pdf is from 06. Notice it's mostly vehicles that fall in the "light truck" (includes SUVs and minivans) class? Of the few passenger cars, they tended to focus on larger sales volume cars (e.g. Taurus).

The corn lobby was also in favor of E85...

 

[jlsoaz]

^^
I'm following now (I think). Thanks for the insight. I pulled two majors:

1. Your specific car is a bit flaky, and GM has been GM-ish.
2. You average 60 miles between charges and the car can EV ~ 30. You would like a larger fraction to be EV

----
As a former PHEV owner, I am not surprised by your stance and I found myself in the same position as you in regards to (2). It is in a way amusing that (2) has three different groups: those that like driving EV to save money; those that want EV to reduce pollution; and lastly, those that learn to *really* dislike ICE driving due to the noise and driving dynamics. Often there is overlap.

Since you seem to fall into the environmental group, I would like to mention that your money will go farther with PV and some home improvements than upgrading your car.

Anyway, Good Luck and thanks for the discussion

While I'm not that happy with the PPR stuff, it's not the end of the world, and it is gen1 technology and GM hasn't completely botched it, and I should be (and am) grateful for the vehicle's many excellent cutting edge virtues. I don't give them a fail on their response to this one more serious issue I've had, but I also can't give them an A. Auto companies making EVs should, in my fallible view, really think through how to keep customers happy during the 5th, 10th, 20th and 30th (and beyond) years of the lives of their EVs, and this will include being progressive and innovative on models around how they deal with battery issues.

(Note that I did spend time protesting and writing about the demise of the EV1, so in getting into a Volt there was some element of compromising and giving GM another chance. I didn't want to be an angry anti-GM grudge holder. It's a small world, a small immature selection of good EVs, beggars can't be choosers, and virtually all of the established automakers have played their role in dragging feet toward EVs).

On point number two, that's an interesting list of categories, and yes, overlap. I think a fourth group driving to participate in the EV driver community? Anyway, it's a good list.

Home improvements:
The last time I had money I spent it to get out of an ICE that was dying (the gasoline vehicle I had kept in order to supplement my short-range Leaf.... now that I think about it, my ~35 months of Leaf leasing ended up 50/50 gasoline and EV miles also) and into this PHEV. Before that, I spent a chunk on installing a new inverter and stationary lead-acid batteries in my garage (the 2.7 kW of solar was supposed to get bigger, but that goal fell by the wayside).

Other:
I haven't had time to keep track exactly of which posters say what on MNL, but my impression is that I think I remember your posts as to being rural, and going by your sig, yes, it seems there was Colorado and now NM. A portion of my EV ownership time has been spent well away from any public charging in a semi-rural situation, so that's a key point I think I remember reading your posts for - that you have paid your dues in trying to own a short range BEV in a rural situation. This was a personal driving experience interest, but also I think there are multiple interesting economics and industry issues that come up in regards to the different-ness of e-mobility issues away from the big cities.

The situation near me: as far as I know, there are no EVs of any sort for sale at the two major dealerships in the county, though they may at this point have snuck in selling a PHEV without my being aware. There are also no good BEVs for sale at a dealership 10 miles north of the county line. There is also only one full-blown publicly-accessible J1772 (aside from a few enabled plugs). There are no hotels with L2, though there is a bed and breakfast with an inviting host and a NEMA 14-50 that has had some good reviews. There is one hotel across the international border about 10 minutes which has both Tesla destination and Clipper Creek L2, so technically our sister/border town beat those of us in the US to the punch. There is no DCFC. I do see the occasional EV on the road around here, and I think at some point in the next 5 years things will change in a dramatic way. It's just that right now, they continue with very little of the EV activity I read about in other cities here on these boards and elsewhere.

 

[jlsoaz]

Going back to a few of the posts that were made a page or two back in this thread, regarding the challenge of getting a realistic comparison of how the packs hold up from Tesla, Chevy, Nissan, etc.:

I spoke yesterday with a seller of a 2013 Tesla. The vehicle had a recently replaced pack and at one point had a replacement motor. The seller, who appeared to have some background that contributed to his knowledge levels, gave me his view that the 2012-2013 Tesla motors and packs were not engineered to hold up as well as might be hoped, but that if they had been replaced after a certain point, then they should hold up better. This jibed a bit with my own (wishful) thinking, and it is not the first time I have run into indications that Teslas from that era may need replacement motors and packs. However, it's somewhat rough because when I have spoken with other Tesla owners, some of them have not been willing or able to offer me anything to watch out for. Their ranges on their packs have held up, they haven't had any issues, and some of them may then get a bit pushy about saying this applies largely across the board for other Teslas.

I don't know if there's a grey area here where Tesla packs hold up with little degradation but in a few cases may suffer a binary issue which necessitates a replacement. I also don't know how to reconcile the conversation or two I've had here or there with knowledgeable owners or experienced repair personnel where they gave me a more realistic idea of degradation I should expect.

Should I perhaps post this in a different thread? I don't know. I think part of the point I want to make here is that while I do believe that it is fair for some of us to be skeptical of Nissan's efforts to address degradation concerns until they can really prove to us that they have addressed this, I think it's also fair to challenge the more sweeping everything-is-rosy claims from some of the other manufacturers, if we think there is reason to challenge those claims.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

agreed. I do watch the Tesla forum just to learn, and many owners report in the neighborhood of 10% range loss in their first few years and are quite frustrated.

As older Leaf owners have lived the degradation life cycle, when looking across the spectrum Teslas and Leafs right now feel like they have similar curves...when you account for a few percent due to pack sizes. They carry the same battery warranty which should be a clue as to confidence.

The Bolts appear to be doing fantastic, but some believe that they may have a bit hidden to mask a little degradation. A couple more years in those packs needs to be seen. Kona and Niro owners also report low loss, but the US size of that population is small. Again, need a couple more years to evaluate, but early signs are good.

As most of the cars move up from 200 to 300 and abovd, that 10% matters less and less.

 

[jlsoaz]

fwiw:

Not to be disagreeable, but to make sure my own point is understood, based on my recollection of the PIA and other data, and some discussions over the years with drivers here in Arizona, I think the indications are that Tesla pack ranges overall hold up better in the heat than Leaf packs. To be fair, I haven't kept strict track of it and would be open to revision, but I've been going on that working hypothesis. My own point was that Tesla packs have their own share of issues, notwithstanding some of the more optimistic comments of some. It was interesting to run into comments about the 2012-2013 packs which are highly relevant if one is trying to purchase a (relatively) affordable used Tesla.

Separately, fwiw, note that neither the Kona EV nor the Niro EV are widely for sale in Arizona, used or new. So, while we will be able to get some data points on degradation from very hot climate areas, they largely will not come from Arizona. I am going by a couple of things here, including a 250 mile or so radius search I use on one of the usual suspect car sales websites, and a sit-down with a dealer or two, including one Hyundai dealer who expressed to me he thought it might be 2022 or so before I am able to speak with him about buying one (based on some of the communication they had from corporate).

agreed. I do watch the Tesla forum just to learn, and many owners report in the neighborhood of 10% range loss in their first few years and are quite frustrated.

As older Leaf owners have lived the degradation life cycle, when looking across the spectrum Teslas and Leafs right now feel like they have similar curves...when you account for a few percent due to pack sizes. They carry the same battery warranty which should be a clue as to confidence.

The Bolts appear to be doing fantastic, but some believe that they may have a bit hidden to mask a little degradation. A couple more years in those packs needs to be seen. Kona and Niro owners also report low loss, but the US size of that population is small. Again, need a couple more years to evaluate, but early signs are good.

As most of the cars move up from 200 to 300 and abovd, that 10% matters less and less.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

It does appear that many are seeing the same degradation within a few % of one another. The reality is 24 kwh packs were simply too small for the mainstream. Yeah, several here will dispute that statement but several will agree.

Tesla owners are happier because 10% off of 85 kwh is still a GREAT transportation option not to mention the several other perks Tesla has that distinguishes them from the pack.

I had the 40 kwh and now I have the 62 kwh. I now have to hope its more than say 7-8 years before my Plus drops down to the 40 kwh level. If things hold true for me as they have so far for 40 kwh cars, I should make my estimated 135,000 miles with plenty to spare,

TBT; it is my long term plan to keep the S Plus for another 6 years then get something else. If I am lucky, I will still have 12 bars by then and over 100,000 miles. If I am not? Well it will be embarrassing to explain why a 2015 24 kwh LEAF went 150,000 miles in my neighborhood before losing its first bar :lol:

 

[cwerdna]

Going back to a few of the posts that were made a page or two back in this thread, regarding the challenge of getting a realistic comparison of how the packs hold up from Tesla, Chevy, Nissan, etc.:

I spoke yesterday with a seller of a 2013 Tesla. The vehicle had a recently replaced pack and at one point had a replacement motor. The seller, who appeared to have some background that contributed to his knowledge levels, gave me his view that the 2012-2013 Tesla motors and packs were not engineered to hold up as well as might be hoped, but that if they had been replaced after a certain point, then they should hold up better. This jibed a bit with my own (wishful) thinking, and it is not the first time I have run into indications that Teslas from that era may need replacement motors and packs. However, it's somewhat rough because when I have spoken with other Tesla owners, some of them have not been willing or able to offer me anything to watch out for. Their ranges on their packs have held up, they haven't had any issues, and some of them may then get a bit pushy about saying this applies largely across the board for other Teslas.

I don't know if there's a grey area here where Tesla packs hold up with little degradation but in a few cases may suffer a binary issue which necessitates a replacement. I also don't know how to reconcile the conversation or two I've had here or there with knowledgeable owners or experienced repair personnel where they gave me a more realistic idea of degradation I should expect.

Re: the bolded part, yep. See my links at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=586663#p586663.

BTW, in my bookmarks, I have links to 47 different posts (hope I don't have a few dupes in there) of Model 3 drive unit failures as in, DU required replacement. It wasn't just noise. The car either became undrivable or put up error messages that caused Tesla service to replace it. Most are ones that I stumbled across while browsing TMC. I normally don't care enough to actively seek them out.

I can put them up in the Model 3 thread if I get a chance, I still stumble across Model S, X, 3 and possibly Y DU failures every now and then (happening in 2020) even though I don't read TMC much any more. No time.

It's funny that my thread at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/automotive-reliability-and-durability-testing.56176/ is crickets.

Re: italicized part, yes... some get defensive and others like to explain away or ummm.... hide issues. Some like to make comparisons to say BMW, Mercedes or Audi or some other not very reliable brand. The first two have never been known for good reliability. Audi also was in that boat but miraculously have improved in the last few years, IIRC.

Roblab at TMC often seems to either forget or ummm... misrepresent how much/little work Teslas need. I've called him out multiple times on this, like at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/2017-model-3-reliability.127618/page-2#post-3137992 and https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/so-whats-with-the-extended-warranty.184309/page-3#post-4482805. Either he has terrible memory or judging by the tone of his posts (in general), he's trying to paint a rosy picture.

 

[GerryAZ]

jlsoaz is correct--EV availability in AZ is limited. Neither Kia nor Hyundai offer their cars for sale here through dealers (may be possible for an individual to bring one in from CA, but obtaining service and warranty repairs could be difficult).

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I have noticed that many/ost of the high mileage Teslas have gone through both a motor and battery replacement. Somehow that gets underplayed when the praise is lavished.

I can't say i know of a single Leaf where the motor was replaced...

 

[cwerdna]

I have noticed that many/ost of the high mileage Teslas have gone through both a motor and battery replacement. Somehow that gets underplayed when the praise is lavished.

I can't say i know of a single Leaf where the motor was replaced...

Yep on the above.

I've been active here since mid-2011. I've been active on some Leaf FB groups for fewer years. I can hardly think of any Leaf motors/drive units that have been replaced. There has been at least one but I can't think of even five. Yet, Edmunds went thru 3 replacements within 30K miles (https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html) on their S:
noise: https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-ominous-noise-fixed.html and https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-ominous-noise.html
died: https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-is-the-third-drive-unit-the-charm.html - car died while accelerating. DU replaced again plus main battery pack.
milling noise: https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-drive-unit-iv-the-milling.html

And, as I've pointed to earlier, I know of three guys (one below) on TMC that each went thru 6+ DU replacements on their S.

As I pointed out at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=553832#p553832, David99 at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/how-reliable-is-your-model-s.117032/page-2#post-2788639 calls Model S "100% reliable" and "It terms or reliability the Model S is as good as it gets IMHO." but he was on his 8th drive unit!

Over there I wrote:

In short, it seems like every vehicle the Tesla puts out is a rush job, possibly w/insufficient validation and testing and possibly insufficient validation of changes. Or, they have manufacturing consistency problems or all of these. See https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/automotive-reliability-and-durability-testing.56176/, for comparison.

https://electrek.co/2020/07/13/tesla-former-vp-quality-explains-issues/ seems to confirm one of my hypotheses.

The one saving grace was the the Model S (except for the original 60 kWh and "40 kWh" cars) and X eventually got 8 year/unlimited mileage warranties on the battery packs and drive units. However, this never happened on 3 and Y + has gone away on S and X: https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty.

 

[SageBrush]

However, this [warranty] never happened on 3 and Y + has gone away on S and X

Troll much ?
You 'forgot' to mention that the replacements were for noise and not breakdown, and the problem has been resolved for years. The problem did not occur with the LEAF because LEAF torque is a small fraction of the Tesla muscle cars. Forewarned though, I mostly use maximum torque for passing. Goosing the car from a complete stop is fairly ridiculous anyway.

Bottom line, there is no reason to think that as current cars age the motor noise problem will occur in anything resembling normal driving, meaning avoiding routine 525 kW (700 HP) rabbit starts.

As for the other poster, I'm waiting for a reference to back up his claim that all/most old Model S have motor replacement.

 

[jlsoaz]

It does appear that many are seeing the same degradation within a few % of one another.

I believe we may have covered this ground before, but for the record, for the hot climates, I do not recall if robust evidence has been presented to support your claim of similarities of degradation levels on the newer batteries. On the older 2008-2012 batteries, for the hot climates, IIRC the evidence does not line up with your view.

The reality is 24 kwh packs were simply too small for the mainstream. Yeah, several here will dispute that statement but several will agree.

I tend to agree that the batteries were too small for many purposes, including my own (and it cost me a lot of money). However, there is a subtler point here that I'm not sure has been made (or perhaps it has been made but less often). In a link I recently posted, the various causes of degradation are explored, and one of the data points discussed was that keeping the state of charge in a narrow band apparently helps battery life. I am writing quickly and possibly mis-summarizing scientific data, but taking the point in this over-simplified way, my own point here is that perhaps larger-battery BEVs on balance experience somewhat less degradation due to the drivers being able to keep their charge depletion in a narrower band more of the time. So, I suppose this is yet another potential factor to sort out, as data is collected on degradation. I do think a lot of this will be rendered somewhat moot as next-generation batteries and pack architecture and TMS and such are introduced, addressing most or all of the concerns. In the meantime, buyers of used batteries and cars still may understandably concern themselves with some of these matters.

 

[gncndad]

moved edited post...

 

[jlsoaz]

2015 LeafS, (Lizard batt), just turned 40k, 11 bars around 28k, Dallas/Ft. Worth...HOT...still showing 82-85 on the GOM at startup.

Due to range anxiety for all other family members, I've kept this car on an almost daily charging to 100%, keeping the SOC between 40 and 100%...virtually every day.

I know that 20-80% is recommended, but could never manage to coordinate that with the other 3 drivers in the house.

Thanks, good to know. If you have time, could you take a moment to edit your post? It's a minor thing but the part that quotes me is missing some sort of bracket and doesn't convey accurately which text is yours and which is mine.

 

[SageBrush]

It does appear that many are seeing the same degradation within a few % of one another.

I believe we may have covered this ground before, but for the record, for the hot climates, I do not recall if robust evidence has been presented to support your claim of similarities of degradation levels on the newer batteries.

Dave does not have fleet data, reputable or otherwise, outside of Tesla so he uses weasel words to make LEAF anecdotes seem as if they mean something.

They do not.

In the last couple of years the LEAF owner community has lost interest in reporting degradation data for useful large scale data analysis. All that is left are trolls pushing anecdotes to serve personal agendas. Caveat Emptor

 

[jlsoaz]

It does appear that many are seeing the same degradation within a few % of one another.

I believe we may have covered this ground before, but for the record, for the hot climates, I do not recall if robust evidence has been presented to support your claim of similarities of degradation levels on the newer batteries.

Dave does not have fleet data, reputable or otherwise, outside of Tesla so he uses weasel words to make LEAF anecdotes seem as if they mean something.

They do not.

In the last couple of years the LEAF owner community has lost interest in reporting degradation data for useful large scale data analysis. All that is left are trolls pushing anecdotes to serve personal agendas. Caveat Emptor

For me it's kind of "caveat senility" because I know we've all talked about this at length in this thread, and it was a lot of work, but I tend to forget some of the nuances of names, positions, links, etc. I do seem to remember there were some harsh words last time, and sometimes they are not avoidable, but I think that was part of why I put this together (sometimes to respond with data and facts seems best).

With the permission of PIA:

http://jlaz.com/Files/2015_battery_pia/2015_PIA_battery_chart.html

I don't think this addresses anything recent, but at the time it seemed worth trying to pull it together, if only to memorialize some of the early 2010s battery considerations.

To zoom in on a point here that is more important to me in the here-and-now: If the Ariya has a bigger battery and it is liquid cooled, then:

a) it is what the doctor ordered and renders some of these discussions somewhat moot (though still relevant for some purposes, such as the present Leaf Plus and such as for used buying considerations)
b) there would seem to be some vindication (maybe just tacit, and maybe only partial for some model lines) of the point of view that Nissan should give a proper try to liquid cooling.
c) the "doctor" "ordered" this a long time ago and so I can't help but note that Nissan is coming out with this sort of battery approach about 9 years after Tesla. And no I am not going for some black-and-white anti-Nissan Pro-Tesla comment, with this comment. I'm more focused on the fact that some of us, back in 2010-2013 were concerned to try to urge Nissan in this direction. At the time though I was concerned that my quiet comments were falling on deaf ears, and I still kind of think that was true. Incredibly frustrating to see them squander so much opportunity to satisfy their customers.

 

[WetEV]

All that is left are trolls pushing anecdotes to serve personal agendas

Mirror, mirror on the wall...

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

It does appear that many are seeing the same degradation within a few % of one another.

I believe we may have covered this ground before, but for the record, for the hot climates, I do not recall if robust evidence has been presented to support your claim of similarities of degradation levels on the newer batteries. On the older 2008-2012 batteries, for the hot climates, IIRC the evidence does not line up with your view.

The reality is 24 kwh packs were simply too small for the mainstream. Yeah, several here will dispute that statement but several will agree.

I tend to agree that the batteries were too small for many purposes, including my own (and it cost me a lot of money). However, there is a subtler point here that I'm not sure has been made (or perhaps it has been made but less often). In a link I recently posted, the various causes of degradation are explored, and one of the data points discussed was that keeping the state of charge in a narrow band apparently helps battery life. I am writing quickly and possibly mis-summarizing scientific data, but taking the point in this over-simplified way, my own point here is that perhaps larger-battery BEVs on balance experience somewhat less degradation due to the drivers being able to keep their charge depletion in a narrower band more of the time. So, I suppose this is yet another potential factor to sort out, as data is collected on degradation. I do think a lot of this will be rendered somewhat moot as next-generation batteries and pack architecture and TMS and such are introduced, addressing most or all of the concerns. In the meantime, buyers of used batteries and cars still may understandably concern themselves with some of these matters.

Should have been more clear that my comment "only" applies to the newer packs. It would make no sense to compare degradation rates with batteries 3X larger.

As far as "definitive" statements, I can say packs at or near 2 years old are running between 5 and nearly 14% degradation. The average seems to be 9%=10%. A large majority lost 7-8% in the first year. No one who lost less than the norm the first year had accelerated loss the 2nd year that I am aware of.

Ok that's that. Temperature is a factor but doesn't appear to be the main factor. Simply too many outliers and no there isn't a lot of outliers but the data pool is small. But the outliers are people in cool climates at the high end of the degradation scale. In my area alone, we have some pretty big differences. I have tried to gather data from LEAF Spy users but its pretty sporadic and it seems like people who have older packs post the most.

on the Tesla side, i don't do their forums. VERY little value there. In the early days, it was great as everyone was discovering their cars but the level of vitriol there has gotten out of hand. Could be better now but I wouldn't know. Nearly all my Tesla knowledge comes locally or a handful of households that have both.

The reality is Tesla has quality issues. PERIOD. When the main topic is getting a delivery with defects "hardly worth mentioning" you know that that hump under the rug is there for a reason. Look at any other car forums. Never saw so much discussed about errors, scratches, and missing hardware before in my life. But that is really a bump in the road. Call em up, get it fixed, you are golden.

Now does that reflect on them as a car company? Oh course it does but none of that speaks to their technology. Just simply a company playing catch up and pushing change at an unheard of pace in the automotive world.

Now, I know someone who went from a 2014 S85 to 2018 T3 and they say they never noticed any range loss on the S85 but the T3 they say they have a lost a little.

When I asked them how they determined this, they based it on miles remaining at the SC when they go to visit their daughter in OR. IOW, highly scientific. :lol:

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Dave dont go back to the tesla forum. Its now filled with bitter M3 owners now complaining about their range loss. It is a very different forum froma few yesrs ago as Yesla has moved from bleeding to leading edge adopters. The new set feels mislead about losing 5-10 miles of range a year. The SR+ battery is small enough that the 250 miles advertised range becomes elusive almost from the start. Cold weather crushes as the heat energy is take off a smaller stsrting point. I was reading one poster today that said before degradation in winter he is at 56% of range, and post making it essentially a 100-120 mile car.

Ok, the reading is fairly entertaining.

 

[gncndad]

It does appear that many are seeing the same degradation within a few % of one another.

I believe we may have covered this ground before, but for the record, for the hot climates, I do not recall if robust evidence has been presented to support your claim of similarities of degradation levels on the newer batteries. On the older 2008-2012 batteries, for the hot climates, IIRC the evidence does not line up with your view.

The reality is 24 kwh packs were simply too small for the mainstream. Yeah, several here will dispute that statement but several will agree.

I tend to agree that the batteries were too small for many purposes, including my own (and it cost me a lot of money). However, there is a subtler point here that I'm not sure has been made (or perhaps it has been made but less often). In a link I recently posted, the various causes of degradation are explored, and one of the data points discussed was that keeping the state of charge in a narrow band apparently helps battery life. I am writing quickly and possibly mis-summarizing scientific data, but taking the point in this over-simplified way, my own point here is that perhaps larger-battery BEVs on balance experience somewhat less degradation due to the drivers being able to keep their charge depletion in a narrower band more of the time. So, I suppose this is yet another potential factor to sort out, as data is collected on degradation. I do think a lot of this will be rendered somewhat moot as next-generation batteries and pack architecture and TMS and such are introduced, addressing most or all of the concerns. In the meantime, buyers of used batteries and cars still may understandably concern themselves with some of these matters.

2015 LeafS, (Lizard batt), just turned 40k, 11 bars around 28k, Dallas/Ft. Worth...HOT...still showing 82-85 on the GOM at startup.

Due to range anxiety for all other family members, I've kept this car on an almost daily charging to 100%, keeping the SOC between 40 and 100%...virtually every day.

I know that 20-80% is recommended, but could never manage to coordinate that with the other 3 drivers in the house.