The 62kWh Battery Topic

[danrjones]

To me "visionary" is when Space-X puts the first manned EV (Rover) on mars. Let's just hope it doesn't leak as bad as some of the Model Ys I have seen on YouTube.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Heh! Or have just dangling connectors where something was obviously supposed to be plugged in - like the oxygen tank valve.

 

[GerryAZ]

does your car ever see even 6 bars during this time of year?

It varied between 7 and 9 bars so far today--8 when I first started driving this morning, dropped to 7 when I stopped at a construction site for a few minutes, up to 9 after hard acceleration off a few stop lights, and back down to 8 a few minutes later (there is a lot of overlap and deadband in the bars so I normally don't pay much attention to them). I used to just record the temperature in my charging log book as < center, = center, or > center until I decided I could look closer and interpolate the segments. The last entry in my log book that shows center line (or 6 bars) was on June 8th. It normally runs at 7 or 8 bars this time of year.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Considering the heat, your battery has done very well.

Here was a post from the Model 3 forum today:

The average Teslafi degradation is 6.7% on my ODO (10mo old car 29k km) So I’d say my examples are pretty on point.
If the average is already ~7% capacity loss, there must be alot of people above 10% loss also.

 

[GerryAZ]

To look at my battery capacity another way: It has lost 2.01 kWh of storage capability and it has averaged 2.98 miles/kWh from the wall. Multiplying these numbers together yields 2.01 kWh*2.98mi/kWh=5.99 miles. I am happy with the actual range loss after one year of only 5.99 miles.

 

[Learjet]

latest data after a full charge today.

FYI...I reset the energy efficiency data on the dash...car shows the same as day 1 on the GOM 220 miles range

 

[jlsoaz]

On the numbers you try to provide, I don't think it's necessary to suppose 80 kWh in 2010. Tesla only had about 50 kWh in 2008, right? and they came out with 40/60/85 in 2012.

Few people who spend $100k on a car (or even a measly $50k) are inclined to spend an hour at a charger for every hour they drive. Without a supercharging network the only solution for a Nissan is to fit the car with a large battery. Moreover, Nissan has never approached Tesla in highway speed Wh/mile efficiency. Put those two things together and an 80 kWh pack for Nissan is on the puny side.

Why go so far out of your way to assume that Nissan could not have also committed itself to faster-paced better-attitude innovation in batteries, efficiency and all other areas and made the progress that would have allowed it to compete in other segments sooner than it has? I think I've made a point about what I consider to be the broader issues here, and a big one for me would be, notwithstanding where Nissan found itself with battery strengths and weaknesses, segment choice, etc., they did have some early mover advantage and I would like to have seen them make and keep a commitment to a faster pace of innovation and open-mindedness to opportunities.

[....]
Last point: I read your monologues as saying the following: Nissan should have built a general purpose EV at prices middle America could afford and taken whatever losses came along with the decision for as long as it takes.

I suspect you have made some sort of honest effort, and if you did then I appreciate that, but I think it's fair to say this is still at least somewhat, unfortunately, a misstatement of my views. I did try to clarify them, but sometimes, (in my opinion) you muddy the waters of what others have taken the time and trouble to offer as their views. I don't remember if we may have had a sharp disagreement years ago in how to approach discussion, and maybe I forgot about it. In any event, in the here and now, I would have to say there is an issue here, not of industry disagreement, but of discussion forum ethics and maintaining reasonably good will where possible.

In any event, as you know, I have set up this link for some fresh approach to the industry discussion.
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=588828#p588824

This link should allow reduced footprint by me on the 62 kWh battery thread for the industry discussion I have sought, though to be sure, some of it seems relevant here, and I do see many others offering up various views, so I'm thinking some of that will continue here as well.

 

[SageBrush]

Why go so far out of your way to assume that Nissan could not have also committed itself to faster-paced better-attitude innovation in batteries, efficiency and all other areas and made the progress that would have allowed it to compete in other segments sooner than it has?

The short answer is that Nissan is not Tesla. No Elon Musk. No JB Straubel. No Supercharger network. No industry cooperation agreement with Prof. Dahn. No industry leading motor R&D. No industry leading battery R&D. No SpaceX tie-in. Way different consumer demographics. Way different stockholder views. The list goes on and on ...

Say you have a group of 10 kids set to a task. Even though they all do their best, One kid will do better than the other nine. One kid will be at the back of the pack. Your argument is that every kid should be able to match the top kid, and any failure was a lack of 'commitment.' That is no more convincing than the poor GM fanbois of Volt/Bolt who are sure that the failure of their car in the wider market is simply due to a lack of advertising dollars.

You should give these executives a lot more credit. They are *all* very good at managing company resources and marketing. They are certainly 100x better at it than either you or me. Take a teaspoon of modesty. jlsoaz as CEO of Nissan in 2010/2015/2020 would not have worked out well. If we analyze very carefully, we *might* identify mis-steps after the fact but 'lack of effort' or 'lack of commitment' is a trite, insight-less conclusion.

 

[alozzy]

Or you could adopt the more cynical view that conventional automotive manufacturers wish they could go back to the good old days when Tesla wasn't a thorn in their sides and making EVs was just a convenient means to achieving EPA compliance (in as few markets as possible and with zero marketing effort to promote them).

The entire industry knew that R&D into EV technology could drastically reduce emissions, but they colluded to make sure that that R&D didn't happen, because they didn't want to make less profitable EVs nor upset their oil industry buddies. It's a long road to EV profitability, with big E&D capital costs to get there - why bother, when ICE cars are more profitable.

Thanks to Elon Musk and Tesla for disrupting the entire industry, consumers are slowly realizing that EVs are better technology and have a lower TCO. Without Tesla, mass adoption of EVs would never have happened. It's still an uphill battle, thanks to the Trump Administration and a paper tiger EPA.

 

[goldbrick]

As much as I love my Leaf the TCO thing has a way to go I think. It's not hard to find a reliable ICE vehicle around here for $2k. I do my own maintenance as do many others. Even with the 'free' charging I get at work my ICE vehicles are still lower in TCO than the Leaf, excluding the $22.5k in rebates and credits I got when I bought the car, of course :mrgreen:

 

[alozzy]

@goldbrick Probably because you don't consistently pay >$4 per gallon for gas, like I do in Vancouver, Canada.

Also, as a DIY mechanic, you are becoming a rare breed. Most people will reduce their maintenance costs significantly more than you do with an EV vs an ICE.

 

[jlsoaz]

As much as I love my Leaf the TCO thing has a way to go I think. It's not hard to find a reliable ICE vehicle around here for $2k. I do my own maintenance as do many others. Even with the 'free' charging I get at work my ICE vehicles are still lower in TCO than the Leaf, excluding the $22.5k in rebates and credits I got when I bought the car, of course :mrgreen:

The TCO on my 2012-2015 Leaf Lease was very large for me, far higher than I had experienced in driving a non-guilded-chariot reliable beater around town. I had to retain ownership of a gasoline car to do about half my miles since the range just didn't cut it. This was also a time-suck compared to having the two vehicles combined into one PHEV. After about 3 years I calculated I had done about 16k miles electric and 16k gasoline. As well, the extra cost of insuring two cars and not one, the extra cost of insuring a new car I didn't own instead of just a clunker I didn't care about, etc.) In the end, even with the gasoline vehicle repair negatives (which did eventually assert themselves) a lesson from the the whole project for me was that within my range needs, the gasoline vehicle cost of a short-range Battery Electric Vehicle can be very high.

This was not the only consideration for me in how I thought about driving the Leaf. I did have the valuable (to me) experience of being a pioneer, and I learned a lot, and I really liked how the Leaf allowed me to make use of my solar-derived electrons, and it was quiet (I really value low NVH), and probably some other factors. And there were a few other lesser negatives as well (I'm not a big fan of the looks). I'm just saying that if I look for a moment at TCO of that initial experience, and temporarily ignore the cost advantages it would have allowed me in a society which puts higher cost on co2 damages, the impact on my own isolated financial bottom line was quite high for me.

 

[WetEV]

Or you could adopt the more cynical view that conventional automotive manufacturers wish they could go back to the good old days when Tesla wasn't a thorn in their sides and making EVs was just a convenient means to achieving EPA compliance (in as few markets as possible and with zero marketing effort to promote them).

The entire industry knew that R&D into EV technology could drastically reduce emissions, but they colluded to make sure that that R&D didn't happen, because they didn't want to make less profitable EVs nor upset their oil industry buddies. It's a long road to EV profitability, with big E&D capital costs to get there - why bother, when ICE cars are more profitable.

Thanks to Elon Musk and Tesla for disrupting the entire industry, consumers are slowly realizing that EVs are better technology and have a lower TCO. Without Tesla, mass adoption of EVs would never have happened. It's still an uphill battle, thanks to the Trump Administration and a paper tiger EPA.

EVs are better technology, but TCO isn't the compelling reason why. Yet. Performance is. Or the iMiev would be the leading electric car. Sure, $4 gasoline in Canada makes TCO for any electric look better.

Without Musk, the world would have been similar as well as different. Perhaps Tesla didn't survive without Musk's Paypal fortune. But high end performance EVs were going to come... Audi? Nio? Someone else?

Don't minimize Nissan's part in this. The LEAF helped Tesla sell EVs, and was never a compliance car. As was the GM Volt, and to a lesser extent the Ford PHEVs. Without Tesla, these alternatives would have more market acceptance. These efforts don't quite fit the cynical view.

Audi R8 etron might have been more than the historic less than 100 in sales in Europe only, without Tesla's market presence. And Audi would have a clear path to increase volumes by just reducing the price and releasing new versions. And so on. Tesla and Musk were not the only path forward.

 

[jlsoaz]

[...
Thanks to Elon Musk and Tesla for disrupting the entire industry,

I more or less agree with this. Say what one will about all of the pros/cons/warts of Tesla Musk, but they (and a few others, to be sure, but with Tesla taking the lead for the most part) had not been there we would still be sitting around having inane conversations about whether 90 miles of range should be good enough for most people, and listening to condescending nonsense that buyers have not taken the trouble to understand better how markets work.... basically MBAs ignoring and disrespecting a portion of their customers who think they might be able to find a better product. Tesla/Musk/et. al. allowed those disrespected customers to have a different path than listening to that nonsense.

 

[umdkevin]

Well past when I would have expected another quarterly update (08/2020) to battery SOC but still haven't seen anything, maybe after a year the adjustment algorithm changes.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

That would be facinating if the quarterly updates stop after 18 months.

My last quarterly in my 5/2019 build SV+ gave me .6% back (well appreciated). It looks a little like yours did the same. I would be fine if the quarterly adjustments stopped (or only gave back capacity) at this point.

My 9/2019 S+ hasn't had an adjustment yet since I bought it, so watching closely.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Board,

I just ran across another Facebook Leaf thread where some one (this case in Ireland) insists the 62 Leaf has a fan somewhere for the battery, and that it is just incredibly ineffective.

Anyone else know of a fan ostensibly for battery cooling...coolingish?

 

[GerryAZ]

The Nissan service manual for the USA 2019 SL Plus does not show a fan or other cooling means inside the battery housing, I have no direct knowledge of other 62 kWh models because I don't have those service manuals.

 

[SageBrush]

Board,

I just ran across another Facebook Leaf thread where some one (this case in Ireland) insists the 62 Leaf has a fan somewhere for the battery, and that it is just incredibly ineffective.

Anyone else know of a fan ostensibly for battery cooling...coolingish?

No noise -- no fan

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Yeah, that's what I have tried to suggest back, its just odd multile people in different countries think there is something.