The Battery Replacement Thread

[kolmstead]

That would hurt! I lost tenth bar very late... 46.01 Ahr. I blamed that on P3227 and cold weather. I won't see 41.01 until June. I could become the new record holder... lowest Ahr loss of 9th bar.

-Karl

 

[Arlington]

Are the 24kWh batteries being made on the same assembly line as the 30kWh batteries?

How will production of Leaf batteries play out in the long run? How is Nissan going to assure that 24kWh batteries continue to be available for warranty service (or replacements) on the 2011 - 2015 (and 2016S) in years beyond 2016?

Right now, you could imagine that somewhere there is an assembly line cranking out 24kWh Lizard batteries for
(1) Original equipment for new 2016 S models and
(2) Warranty replacements for 2011 - 2012
(3) Small volume defect/repair for the 2013 to 2015s

My 2013 S is doing very well...so well that I can't see needing warranty work, but I might very well want a new battery (if priced right) sometime before 2026 (when the last of the 2016 S no longer need some kind of battery-warranty coverage)

How long can they realistically be expected to keep both a 24kWh and 30kWh assembly line open? At some point, Nissan will face a choice:
(1) either they'll stockpile 24kWh and then stop entirely
(2) they'll make a universal 30kWh (to cover *all* models 2011 to 2016)
(3) they'll find a way to use flexible production to keep THREE battery variants in production 24, 30, and "60" (for the 200-mile leaf)
(4) past some point, all leaf replacements will be remanufactured, not new (eg. new cells or new battery modules in same-geometry cases)

Maybe part of what allowed them to start production on the 30kWh line is that they estimated that between the need to ...
(A) generally get economies of scale
(B) fewer than expected warranty replacements
(C) fewer than expected total new unit sales.
...they had manufacturing capacity above and beyond what the 24kWh market would need.

I'd guess that since we expect the 60kWh car to be highly desirable, that they want to have the factories sized now to be retooled to meet 60kWh demand. I would think that they'd want to get to a point where they are making a 30kWh battery (or at least its modules for remanufacturing) in some kind of swap-in/swap-out system.

How do you see it happening?

 

[kolmstead]

Stanton, your numbers were too depressing, so I averaged yours with those of mwalsh. Ignoring the loss of bar 12, which occurred way late for both of you (at about 19% capacity loss), the average capacity loss for bars 11, 10 and 9 was 3.7 Ahr, or about 5.58 % of original capacity.

My car lost its tenth bar last March at 46.01 Ahr, so I'm now predicting that it will lose the eight bar at 46.01 - 3.7, or 42.31 Ahr, which is exactly where it was on Thursday evening.

Here's a quick summary. all numbers in Ahr and assume 66.25 Ahr for new capacity.

mwalsh
Bar 12 54.01 (-12.18)
Bar 11 51.58 (-2.49)
Bar 10 47.17 (-4.41)
Bar 9 42.76 (-4.41)

Stanton
Bar 12 53.3 (-12.95)
Bar 11 50.3 (-3.00)
Bar 10 47.6 (-2.7)
Bar 9 42.4 (-5.2)

Mike averaged 3.77 Ahr per bar; you averaged 3.63. I'm guessing you had P3227 between bar 10 and bar 9. I had it performed prior to loss of bar 10, and it delayed loss of that bar by many months. I don't have good Ahr data until bar 9 for my battery.

-Karl

 

[Stanton]

Mike averaged 3.77 Ahr per bar; you averaged 3.63. I'm guessing you had P3227 between bar 10 and bar 9. I had it performed prior to loss of bar 10, and it delayed loss of that bar by many months. I don't have good Ahr data until bar 9 for my battery.

Good analysis, but we still have no idea exactly what triggers the bar loss. I can tell you a couple of things:
1) I had P3227 done very early on: between bars 12 and 11 (once I knew it was a requirement, I didn't wait).
2) There must be some kind of "soak" time once you get below a certain AHr number (and you're probably already there), but we still don't know what that number is or how many power on/off cycles it takes. One thing is for sure: the bar always drops at start-up.

I did hit a plateau in the last couple of weeks where I lost < 0.1Ahr before I dropped the 4th capacity bar.

 

[kolmstead]

You're right; bar always drops at startup. I don't think that the BMS ever updates capacity except at startup. I've never seen it change during a drive. After I stop, I restart in order to see updated capacity. Other things update too; I usually lose a GID or two. I've learned never to shut down car when below VLBW until I get where I'm going. If I stop and restart, the GIDs seem smaller and turtle happens two to four GIDs sooner than it normally does.

-Karl

 

[PMev]

First time post here.

I have a 2011 LEAF. In November 2015 I dropped to 8 bars at 36,500 miles. Brought to dealership and left it there for a day. They said, this is probably a candidate for battery replacement under warranty. But they have to run extended diagnostics. They want to keep the car for 1.5 weeks to run diagnostics. Is that normal?

Would appreciate some input.

Thanks for organizing and keeping up this great forum.

 

[GerryAZ]

PMev,

The dealer should be able to run all of the diagnostic tests they need in a day. Tests should only take a few minutes, but they may need to make tests with battery discharged and charged (requiring time between). It is not normal to keep the car for more than a day to run the tests. The P3227 software update and battery diagnostic tests were run on my 2011 in one day. When the dealer received the replacement battery, I dropped the car off in the morning and picked it up in the afternoon. The new battery was about 50% charged when I picked it up--they would have kept it long enough to fully charge it I had not agreed that was enough charge to get home and for the rest of the day.

Edit: I realize that I left out an important step in my battery replacement process: I did not request a battery replacement when I took the car in for the P3227 software update and battery diagnostics. A week or so after the software update and diagnostics, Nissan Customer Service called me and asked me to take the car back to the dealer so they could perform some additional diagnostics and start the battery replacement process. The additional tests were performed during another drop off in the morning and pick up I the afternoon session. In all cases, I either had a loaner car or received free shuttle service home and back to dealer (motorcycle was available at home so sometimes I just used the shuttle).

Gerry

 

[PMev]

GerryAZ,

First off, thanks for the quick and clear reply. What you say makes sense. Even though the tech said that this is more than he has ever done, i.e. looking at battery replacement, still a week and a half for diagnosis sounds excessive. They are not offering a loaner car either, and pointed me to rentals only when I mentioned that I do need transportation for all these days.

I think part of the problem is that there aren't enough Leafs on the road in my town (4 may be), so the tech does not have much experience.

Do you have any suggestion as to how to approach them that diagnosis shouldn't take that long? Do you think I should try a different dealership?

Thanks once again. Your input is much appreciated.

PMev.

 

[Stanton]

I think part of the problem is that there aren't enough Leafs on the road in my town (4 may be), so the tech does not have much experience.

Do you have any suggestion as to how to approach them that diagnosis shouldn't take that long? Do you think I should try a different dealership?

It helps if you add your location to your profile. I see 3 red flags:
1) This dealer doesn't even understand the process to replace a battery pack (including something as simple as warranty verification)
2) They didn't offer a loaner car (really?)
3) It's obvious they haven't actually done one

I would consider going to a dealer that actually has done one, but I don't know what that means for you.
FWIW, I am going through this process right now with a dealer that has done a few of these (and my experience is nothing like you describe).

 

[TimLee]

They want to keep the car for 1.5 weeks to run diagnostics. Is that normal?

Not normal.
My dealer has only done one replacement.
Much faster than that, and they did not require keeping the LEAF till replacement pack was received and installed.

But they are very knowledgeable about the LEAF. Service manager and 1/3 of service writers drive one and LEAF technician is great.

 

[clarke]

Dealer was dragging feet getting back to me on test results. So I called the Nissan customer
support number

Nissan EV Customer Support Team 877-664-2738

and they looked up the case my dealer filed. Apparently the battery has been ordered. Its
hard to believe that something is actually going to go smoothly for once.

 

[Stanton]

Dealer was dragging feet getting back to me on test results. So I called the Nissan customer
support number

Nissan EV Customer Support Team 877-664-2738

and they looked up the case my dealer filed. Apparently the battery has been ordered. Its
hard to believe that something is actually going to go smoothly for once.

I'd say you're on your way then...

 

[PMev]

Stanton,

Thanks for replying. You are correct on all counts. The tech, and his manager today, told me several times that they have not replaced battery before, and that it is a major major operation, and it takes time for the process to start, etc.

As far as the loaner, I raised the issue today, and got my car back. Having to keep the car for 1.5 weeks to diagnose was a bogus claim. Interestingly enough, there was no paperwork when I took the car back, and no timeline as to when they will hear from Nissan to start the process of battery replacement. I wonder if they could just as easily let the warranty lapse by stalling for 4 more months (3/2011 manufacture date). I will be calling the Nissan EV Customer Support Team phone no. that CLARKE provided to see if they were even contacted.

TimLee, thanks for replying as well. When I was looking for a LEAF, none of the local dealers had one in stock. I don't know if the situation has changed lately, but I don't see that many LEAFs on the road here either, although the service manager today claimed there are 40 plus in town, and apparently one person has two that he uses for daily commute himself.

Thank you to CLARKE for the support phone no.

GerryAZ, thanks for PS. I was told that they have downloaded data from the battery, which someone will process now.

PMev

 

[mwalsh]

Interestingly enough, there was no paperwork when I took the car back, and no timeline as to when they will hear from Nissan to start the process of battery replacement. I wonder if they could just as easily let the warranty lapse by stalling for 4 more months (3/2011 manufacture date). I will be calling the Nissan EV Customer Support Team phone no. that CLARKE provided to see if they were even contacted.

GerryAZ, thanks for PS. I was told that they have downloaded data from the battery, which someone will process now.

PMev

That's common. The only paperwork you should have at this point is a work order from when you took your car in to be examined, which will probably read something like "Customer states range has diminished greatly. Status bar on dash indicates 8 bars".

Just as an FYI - my data was downloaded; the replacement approved by Nissan; and the order for the new pack placed while I waited the 1.75 hours for my car.

 

[TimLee]

... The tech, and his manager today, told me several times that they have not replaced battery before, and that it is a major major operation, and it takes time for the process to start, etc.
...
PMev

Good luck PMev in Metairie, LA, home of Drago's world's best grilled oysters. (Sure wish their expansion plans were going faster so there was one closer to me :!: But at least there are three now.)

It is a fairly major operation, particularly first time a dealer does it.

2011 / 2012 pack design was pretty involved effort on how it was put together.
It gets removed which may be a bit involved (not sure).
But adapter kit is added and the new pack is a much more single assembly that gets lifted up and bolted in place.

There is apparently a lot of confusion and difference of opinion between dealers on whether they should or need to keep the LEAF until pack replacement is completed.

 

[Stanton]

It is a fairly major operation, particularly first time a dealer does it.

I would imagine this is pretty profitable business for the dealer?? I don't know if they get a cut of the parts cost, but the labor is significant. How many times do they get a $6k repair job (that isn't body work)?

 

[RegGuheert]

The tech, and his manager today, told me several times that they have not replaced battery before, and that it is a major major operation, and it takes time for the process to start, etc.

Sorry, but they are full of it. With the proper equipment, a battery swap in a LEAF should not take very long at all. It is NOTHING like replacing an ICE. It's more akin to replacing the fuel tank, only heavy.

The bigger issue is ordering and waiting on the parts, storing the new battery before installation and storing and disposing of the old battery after replacement. There is no reason to hold the car while waiting for the parts to come in. Do they hold EVERY car when they order parts? No, they simply say "We'll call you when the parts come in."

 

[Evoforce]

Lost that hanging chad today at 37,453 miles! My lady was driving to work this morning when she said she lost the ninth bar. So now temporarily it is now (8 bar car). Need to contact the dealer. I will post the numbers after the charge tonight. So now I know what it feels like to be a big looser but still a big winner. My prediction of October-November barely came true. Happy Thanksgiving tomorrow! I dropped it at 41.78 AHr.

 

[mwalsh]

Packs are still 2015 "Lizard" and are coming out of stocks in TN via truck freight.

Some people are still getting packs quickly, some are taking longer. According to my guy, the difference is the cold weather package - those without (like mine) can take longer than those with.

Just got a keeping me up-to-date call from my dealer - still no word on a delivery date for me. He says the pack (w/o cold weather package) is on national backorder with no release time-frame as of yet.

 

[Valdemar]

Packs are still 2015 "Lizard" and are coming out of stocks in TN via truck freight.

Some people are still getting packs quickly, some are taking longer. According to my guy, the difference is the cold weather package - those without (like mine) can take longer than those with.

Just got a keeping me up-to-date call from my dealer - still no word on a delivery date for me. He says the pack (w/o cold weather package) is on national backorder with no release time-frame as of yet.

It is that time when many 11/12 batteries drop 4 bars. High demand due to the rise of warranty claims and low supply as production lines are churning out 30kWh packs?