Understanding the EV haters

[jkirkebo]

I'm sure we will see a LEAF with 20's.

I don't think you can get tires with low enough profile. It's hard enough to get 19", 215/35-19 fits but very little selection.

For 20" you would need something like 205/30-20 or 245/25-20. I haven't seen any of those sizes around

 

[mwalsh]

ya, its the "chicken/egg" thing. we are moving towards communism and like them we will implode under the cost of monitoring our own citizenry.

I only differ with you in that I think we are moving more towards fascism. Or at least we would, if the neocons had (or ever again get) their way.

But as Doctor Evil said "...the snake to my mongoose. Or the mongoose to my snake. I don't know animals, but either way, it's bad."

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

ya, its the "chicken/egg" thing. we are moving towards communism and like them we will implode under the cost of monitoring our own citizenry.

I only differ with you in that I think we are moving more towards fascism. Or at least we would, if the neocons had (or ever again get) their way.

But as Doctor Evil said "...the snake to my mongoose. Or the mongoose to my snake. I don't know animals, but either way, it's bad."

actually what i really believe is that George Orwell was a lot smarter than he realized. what we have already become is pawns manipulated by big business

a lot of people say that is country is becoming a welfare state and i find that difficult to fathom since the only entities not paying their fair share is companies allowed to operate on American soil who pay corporate taxes to another country

 

[mwalsh]

actually what i really believe is that George Orwell was a lot smarter than he realized. what we have already become is pawns manipulated by big business

a lot of people say that is country is becoming a welfare state and i find that difficult to fathom since the only entities not paying their fair share is companies allowed to operate on American soil who pay corporate taxes to another country

Well those are sentiments for which I DEFINITELY agree with you.

 

[NewCalifornian]

simply put...it is just plain ignorance! It seems that there are too many people that don't realize that they "don't know what they don't know"! I picked up a LEAF for purely economical reasons...never once considered it "political"...however, this conservative, right wing guy was quite surprised by the "ribbing" I received after getting my spiffy LEAF. Even my son said he was getting me an Obama sticker to put on the car and if anyone has a spare bedroom I will send him your way! ;o)

I enjoy the heck out of my EV...so much that I am VERY concerned about running well over the 15K annual miles for the 39 month lease. But as I said...nothing to do with politics, global warming, pollution etc...just a selfish way to save a buck!

I was also surprised to see there were HOV Haters who think it isn't right to be allowed to drive in the HOV lane just because you have a zero emission vehicle. This all is quite humorous...I am just a consumer making what I feel to be excellent choices...I didn't invent the subsidies but I openly admit that I am looking forward to receiving my $2500 rebate from California...why not take advantage of systems in place!?!? I may just drive down the HOV lane and go buy a second EV and get me $10,000 more in rebates...but of course, after I hug a tree...well...maybe not the tree...

 

[kubel]

I think prejudice plays a huge part. Green things have become almost like symbols of a certain political affiliation or movement. I'm guilty too. When I see a Prius, I prejudge that driver as a liberal Democrat. When others see my car, they probably think the same of me (until they see my back window, then that really confuses them). When something becomes affiliated with a political ideology, the other side will be motivated to hate it. People shouldn't be offended when others with contrasting political views decide to purchase a LEAF. Smashing the prejudice can only help.

Ignorance is another part. Some people are unaware that their addiction to oil is causing our nation to go mingling in oil-rich areas of the globe, resulting in people in those regions hating us, which causes terrorism against us, resulting in more war, and with war comes loss of liberty, government and big-oil collaborating- resulting in corporatism, etc... And that's just touching on the political implications of oil addiction. What about impacts to our health? Impacts to our economy? Oil is a huge mess- and people are ignorant to all of it, except the fact that they don't like paying over $4/gal for gas. I can't fault them for it. I'm one of them.

Finally, I think our own smugness isn't helping. A lot of us here are over emotional babies. Just take a look at the Volt thread. Grow up. Seriously... I like my car, but I try to refrain from projecting an 'I'm better than you because of the car I drive' attitude. In fact, I don't even go as far as to say my car is better. There's nothing inherently wrong with gas cars. They are marvels of engineering to me. When we start doing what others are doing to us (judging them based on the cars they drive), people see that, and they don't like it.

 

[September]

I'm afraid Obama has little to do, he is not being elected in Ireland but there is still some considerable number of EV haters. Actually many people who are my friends tried to prove me that I did wrong getting a LEAF. I think reason is that people are afraid that EV would be forced upon them and I believe they are actually right, at least in Ireland, maybe in some other European countries.

In 2008 Green party of Ireland has introduced taxation based on CO2 emissions bands, that replaced old one based on engine capacity bands. On a side note, some old taxes were better for EVs, which only proves how greens cannot even follow own policies. This has caused a major shift in car market, as low CO2 cars were at such big advantage that certain models became almost non-existent. In 2010 and 2011 only 462 of ~37000 new passenger cars registered were emitting over 225 grams of CO2 per km, in current year cars that have over 140 grams of CO2 per km emission are about 8% of market. So all petrol heads and V8 fanatics suddenly became even more marginalized and seriously penalized for their purchasing choices - currently 225+ cars pay 3000$ annual tax and 36% of value of car when it is first registered in country, cars with less than 120g are about 200$ per year and only 14%. Certain types of cars have suffered and I think now people with this experience in mind are basically afraid of that again EVs would get so preferential treatment which should cause another shift and they would be forced out of ICE cars like they were and are forced from sports cars and SUVs now. It could be this fear of radical government intervention that drives EV hatred.

 

[Herm]

a lot of people say that is country is becoming a welfare state and I find that difficult to fathom since the only entities not paying their fair share are companies....

too many damn tax loopholes, time to go to a flat VAT (Value Added Tax) in the US on everything, food, mortgages, everything, no breaks or exceptions....

Its a scandal that half of everyone depends on government for their income somehow.. and that the bottom 50% only pay 2% of Federal income taxes.. this is not economically sustainable folks and promotes bad habits (such as demanding more free bennies or else).

I think Ireland is doing pretty good if they only have 225 new cars with V8s in the whole country.

 

[Alric]

Its a scandal that half of everyone depends on government for their income somehow.. and that the bottom 50% only pay 2% of Federal income taxes.. this is not economically sustainable folks and promotes bad habits (such as demanding more free bennies or else).

It would be a scandal if it was true. Like most republican talking points this is false:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/09/17/romneys-theory-of-the-taker-class-and-why-it-matters/?wprss=rss_ezra-klein" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Herm]

It would be a scandal if it was true. Like most republican talking points this is false:

That link did not convince me.. what percentage of Americans receive their income from Federal, State or local governments?.. this includes welfare, social security, cops, teachers, soldiers etc?.. the only thing in common with all those is where the money is coming from. Is this statement not true? : "and that the bottom 50% only pay 2% of Federal income taxes"

 

[Alric]

It would be a scandal if it was true. Like most republican talking points this is false:

That link did not convince me.. what percentage of Americans receive their income from Federal, State or local governments?.. this includes welfare, social security, cops, teachers, soldiers etc?.. the only thing in common with all those is where the money is coming from. Is this statement not true? : "and that the bottom 50% only pay 2% of Federal income taxes"

Entirely proportional to income.

I do not post this information for you since you are likely "epistemologically closed", that is, unwilling to accept new information that may falsify your current conclusions.

"In fact, when all taxes are considered, the share of taxes that each fifth of households pays is similar to its share of the nation’s total income.[22]   ITEP data show that in 2011, the bottom fifth of households received 3.4 percent of the total income in the nation and paid 2.1 percent of the total taxes.  The middle fifth of households received 11.4 percent of income and paid 10.3 percent of taxes.  The top 1 percent of households received 21.0 percent of income and paid 21.6 percent of taxes.  The tax system as a whole is only mildlyprogressive.[23]"

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3505" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[edatoakrun]

It would be a scandal if it was true. Like most republican talking points this is false:

That link did not convince me.. what percentage of Americans receive their income from Federal, State or local governments?.. this includes welfare, social security, cops, teachers, soldiers etc?.. the only thing in common with all those is where the money is coming from. Is this statement not true? : "and that the bottom 50% only pay 2% of Federal income taxes"

Entirely proportional to income.

I do not post this information for you since you are likely "epistemologically closed", that is, unwilling to accept new information that may falsify your current conclusions.

"In fact, when all taxes are considered, the share of taxes that each fifth of households pays is similar to its share of the nation’s total income.[22]   ITEP data show that in 2011, the bottom fifth of households received 3.4 percent of the total income in the nation and paid 2.1 percent of the total taxes.  The middle fifth of households received 11.4 percent of income and paid 10.3 percent of taxes.  The top 1 percent of households received 21.0 percent of income and paid 21.6 percent of taxes.  The tax system as a whole is only mildlyprogressive.[23]"

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3505" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you receive most of your income from investments, rather than from "earned income", you have a great deal of leeway in controlling your taxable "income", from which those figures are based.

Capital gains are only assessed on assets when sold, so it is quite easy to exclude much of your actual increase in wealth from asset appreciation, from the "income" category, and from taxation, by the selective realization of taxable losses on asset sales.

Mitt Romney, like virtually every one of the top 1% of households employs this entirely legal method of tax avoidance.

So do I, though on a rather less significant scale...

 

[thankyouOB]

a lot of people say that is country is becoming a welfare state and I find that difficult to fathom since the only entities not paying their fair share are companies....

too many damn tax loopholes, time to go to a flat VAT (Value Added Tax) in the US on everything, food, mortgages, everything, no breaks or exceptions....

Its a scandal that half of everyone depends on government for their income somehow.. and that the bottom 50% only pay 2% of Federal income taxes.. this is not economically sustainable folks and promotes bad habits (such as demanding more free bennies or else).

I think Ireland is doing pretty good if they only have 225 new cars with V8s in the whole country.

are you including dividends, capital gains and carried interest in that, sir???

 

[WetEV]

It could be this fear of radical government intervention that drives EV hatred.

Somehow, before burning all the fossil fuel, something or someone needs to stop us from burning fossil fuels.

There is enough carbon as economically recoverable conventional coal, natural gas and oil to double CO2 in the atmosphere about 3 to 4 times. Add the unconventional and currently uneconomic fossil carbon and there is at least another 2 doublings. As each doubling will increase the temperature and the dew point by about 3 C, the potential increase in temperature would be on the order of 15 C to 18 C. A fairly large amount of the land area will become hot enough to be fatal without mechanical cooling. Ireland might escape that and be just sort of tropical. Mean summer temperature is currently around 13 C, add 18C to that and would close to what Singapore is now. Of course, this is a very rough estimate, but even with climate models it's hard to improve this much, as this climate is so far away from from what we have good information about. It might be a less. It might be more.

This will take time, hundreds of years. Many people can't plan next years or even next month's budget. How would they care? Why would they change? I don't see it. And democratic governments must follow the people. Undemocratic governments are even worse (and have a lot of the fossil fuels). So I'm not sure that any governmental intervention, "radical" or not, will change this. Slow it, at best.

Now that's not the only reason for an EV. They are also fun to drive, smooth, quiet and responsive. Perhaps it's best to talk about that to an EV hater. After all, fun is something that almost everyone understands.

 

[Alric]

Actually the best arguments I've had with EV haters is the savings

A 30 mpg ICE car costs $0.13 per mile at $4.00/gallon

I pay $0.01 per mile with my LEAF.

 

[N952JL]

I believe 90% of the EV haters can be summed up as simply anti-Obama. And in their minds, anything Obama likes is bad. if Obama proclaims the cheeseburger as being the best food ever, then these guys would be ranting about how bad and stupid cheeseburgers are. If Romney is elected and by some weird chance 2 years later he talks about how great EVs are, then suddenly 90% of the EV haters will disappear.

I would imagine the rest of the EV haters (and probably some overlap with the Obama haters) probably feel like the entire EV movement exists only as a solution to environmental problems and that nobody could possibly have any other motivation to buy one. And since they do not believe global warming exists, and since they believe that all electricity is derived from coal power, which is supposedly dirtier than gas power.... that EVs are a dumb idea.

So that probably just about sums up most of the haters. Yes, a lot of it is just total ignorance. Nothing we can really do about it other than to correct their facts.

On the bright side - I have a lot of hope for Tesla. They have a product that is a appealing to a lot of people and it is very clear that you don't have to be an environmentalist in order to want one. So I'm sort of counting on Tesla to really change people's minds about EVs.

Please do not bring Obama into this. I feel Obama has been the worst president since Jimmy Carter. (As a person Jimmy Carter was very nice and about the most honest president we've had since Turman, but as a President, he resided over the worst four year period of American Histroy I have lived through.) I dislike Obama's policies and believe he missed the boat. I was on the waiting list for the Leaf since the day back in April 2010 that Nisan opened the list. I enjoy my leaf and it does exactly what I expected it to do. I await the time when the honest interestate range reaches 280+ miles @ 70mph.

I believe EV haters are the natural reaction to so some of the EV lovers. Two sides of the same coin, like love and hate. I know some of my friends point out the Government subtities I am enjoying. Like not paying for my roads since I don't pay the gas tax. And the 7,500 federal tax rebate, and the 30% rebate on PV etc. They feel I am getting handouts I did not earn.

(by the way all of these tax credits came about via Bushes energy policies, not Obama. Bush signed the Law after Obama was elected and before he left office. I don't even think they needed to be extended as I believe the Car tax credit is based on 200,000 units sold not a fix time frame.)

 

[dgpcolorado]

Actually the best arguments I've had with EV haters is the savings

A 30 mpg ICE car costs $0.13 per mile at $4.00/gallon

I pay $0.01 per mile with my LEAF.

You must have exceptionally low electricity rates. I am running about 3.4¢/mile at my local power co-op electricity rate of 13¢/kWh, measured "at the wall". (Except that I use solar panels to cover most of my electricity usage although they aren't remotely cost-effective here.)

That's still half the cost of a Prius and an even smaller portion of the cost of my backup car, 15¢/mile (Jeep Cherokee, 23 mpg, ~$3.50/gallon). But I don't drive enough for the savings in fuel cost to ever pay for my LEAF. I prefer the "fun to drive argument"!

 

[N952JL]

Actually the best arguments I've had with EV haters is the savings

A 30 mpg ICE car costs $0.13 per mile at $4.00/gallon

I pay $0.01 per mile with my LEAF.

I use the same argument, plus the one more. I cannot prove it, but I feel it in my bones, that at least 1.00 of every gal of gas I purchase goes to fun Terrorist groups around the world. And part of my part to fit this is to help stop it's funding. Now the ICE engine will not go away any time within the next 50 years. It has a purpose and while we might get more efficent (like a disel electric car or Class A motor home ((simular to the Disel/Electric locomotive that pull our trains))) we will not be giving up on them.

 

[ksnogas2112]

Back to the topic...I don't really understand the haters. I do think the FUD factor has something to do with it. I think that politics plays a part of it as well. I think in all cases it's a matter of ignorance. One of the senior engineers at the office adamantly refuses to even listen to the possibility that an EV is the right car.

I think sometimes those of us who love EV's forget that there are very real reasons to not have one. Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that a car purchase is a very personal decision and that as Americans we have a tendency to have vehicle use/purchase to be symbols of ourselves.

I spent 6 months in Budapest, Hungary last year and didn't see a single bumper sticker. Ok, excluding the sticker for country of origin. Certainly there were no 'my kid's better than your kid' stickers.

LTLFTcomposite had a great point earlier:

The funny part is EV buyers are exactly the same. Missing bars and limitations be damned, we need people to know we made a good choice, and want to see others make the same choice.

Nubo:

In much the same way, EV ownership doesn't simply orbit around the range, or charge times. It's about the whole experience and the pleasures of not dealing with gasoline and the associated hardware. Things that you don't really think about when you're accustomed to the existing way of doing things. Things that I didn't even fully realize until I started using the car.

And he's correct. Both sides are very experience oriented. There's a guy in office who's first activity on returning from Budapest was to buy a Camero because he wanted a vroom vroom wheee type of car. I would have purchased the Leaf then if it was available in KS but it wasn't and I had to wait a year.

You can't argue emotional attachment to a car when the person loves what he/she has. You can't argue a $300/month lease + $20/month electric cost to a person who's making 0 car payments and paying $100/month in gas and barely making ends meet.

What we can do is when people are genuinely interested is to provide the best information available without mud slinging.
Would I tell a single mom with 2 kids to run out and buy a Leaf? Absolutely not. Lease one? You bet,because around here a single person would be hard pressed to come up with the $7500 tax liability.

In the last week I've had three different people ask me about the car and were genuinely interested in what it could do for them. It would have replaced a pickup and two minivans as primary vehicles if they go through with it. Although the pickup guy would have kept the truck for hauling.

Bottom line, my Leaf is fun and meets my personal needs and desires for a vehicle. The $7500 tax credit is nice and hopefully will cover new windows for the house next year barring unforeseen IRS challenges.

 

[Alric]

Actually the best arguments I've had with EV haters is the savings

A 30 mpg ICE car costs $0.13 per mile at $4.00/gallon

I pay $0.01 per mile with my LEAF.

You must have exceptionally low electricity rates.

Yep. $0.05/kW off-peak.