ebill3
Well-known member
Make that 100 Amps and 240 volts.cdherman said:
What 240V outlet type do I need for a plug-in EVSE?
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smkettner
Well-known member
250v x 80 amps = 20,000 watts. Kind of pushing the voltage spec to get that round number.
A 100amp home EVSE would be complete overkill. That is what you need on a trip to add 80m range per hour. For your home who cares if it takes 1 hour or 16 hours to re charge? You have to sleep anyway! If the cable will reach the car, then just plug into the dryer outlet. If it doesn't, then you will need an electrician.
coolfilmaker
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Mel4EV said:
I guess you never have family over for the holidays?
schamberlin said:RonDawg said:
My car won't take advantage of the higher charging rate, and the quality and reliability of the Bosch is unknown since it's new. And it's not even available for sale yet.
The Bosch (and the other brands made by the same third party company) should be coming out within the next few weeks. You can also reserve the Bosch ones.
If you don't trust the Bosch, the Schneider and Leviton 30A models are about $250 more. When you're already spending around $1500 for just the Clipper Creek, having that extra 50% capacity helps to future proof your investment, even if your current EV can't take full advantage of it.
But that's just my opinion.
coolfilmaker said:
My point is that someone is giving advice to a new to EV person to gear up for home fast charging of a Tesla, when he has a Leaf and the smallest L2 charger right now.
Re family over holidays, his Clipper Creek will work over a day time night time rotation.
Let's not get carried away with future proofing. Upgrades can always come later.
coolfilmaker
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Mel4EV said:
And some people don't like wasting their time and money later doing things that could be done now.
coolfilmaker said:
Although I recommended to someone earlier in the thread to go for a higher capacity EVSE than he was originally thinking of getting, that was because he was already spending the money to upgrade his electrical that can take the higher current draw. I would not make the same recommendation if upgrading beyond a 20 amp service would be very expensive.
Just like with any home improvement project, you have to set your limits carefully, or pretty soon your bath makeover ends up being a whole-house gut job, also known as the "Now that I've done this much, I might as well..." syndrome. You should consider any reasonable future needs, but you also can't get carried away either.
EVDRIVER
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This forum is full of polarized opinions however if you speek to any EV advocacy group or anyone that has done EV consulting professionally you will find that even 3kw charging is adequate for most users and 6kw meets the needs of the majority of people. Besides, adding an insane power allocation to ones panel can also restrict their home from future electrical expansion. Before this forum few people knew anything about EVs and some had been driving them for a decade, now every person with a LEAF is a EV and charging expert all with their own idea of what is the best charging setup.
EVDRIVER: Do you have an opinion about how you think one ought to be able to cope with, say, a 3 Leaf household when the available electric capacity for charging is limited to, say, no more than 40a 240v? If this isn't the multi-EV hypothetical you would like to comment on, please supply your own, but I am interested in what you see as workable charging solutions for a problem that is likely to become (hopefully) much more common in the near future.
MikeD said:
In your scenario what are the conditions where the homes load calc would only have 40 amps extra available? My guess is it'll be a long time before people with homes that only have 40 amps available will have 3 EVs and if they do they can probably afford to upgrade their small/old service and/or panels anyway and they should do that to prepare for their solar PV install.
Now if instead of picking 40 amps you picked 48 the answer is as simple as 3 EVSEs at 16 amps each.
If this becomes a real problem the market will sell three headed EVSEs that will spread the available capacity out based on your preferences.
If EVs are causing small and outdated electrical panels and services to be upgraded to modern ones I think that's a net positive.
Why do you think three EVs is huge problem without easy solutions that already exist?
I think my personal situation could easily provide 50 amps of charging with my small heat pump and dryer as the only large 240 volt loads on a 125 amp service in a 200 amp panel. That would allow 3 EVSEs to charge at 16 amps each.
So AFAIC three LEAFs isn't a problem worth thinking about because anyone with that many LEAFs probably already has sufficient capacity and if they don't they could probably use a upgrade any way.
You start adding multiple Tesla's with long daily driving needs and maybe you have a problem but again if you can afford three Tesla's you can afford to upgrade to a 400 amp service.
Ingineer
Well-known member
I can say this with good authority, as we probably have talked to more EV owners about charging than anyone on the planet. EVSE Upgrade is the charging provider for about 20% of LEAF owners in the US.
For the bulk of all normal residential charging, ~3kW is sufficient, after all, there are well over 10,000 EV's on the road with as a limit! For most all situations an overnight charge meets the needs of EV ownership. As long as the car is ready for you when you leave, there is no problem. Where faster charging is really desired, is in public where you will likely be waiting patiently for each mile of precious range added. (rather than sleeping it away!) This is where >6kW makes sense.
I have the ability to QC my 2011 at home using my Microturbine Trailer (lots of info here), and I've only ever done it once outside of testing. I will say that about a handful of times I have charged at 6.7kW for a hour or 2 before running more errands, and it was handy. The most you can charge a 2013 LEAF at home is almost 6kW (actual power into the pack).
My advice is to go ahead and add a NEMA 14-50 if possible, as it's the most flexible. This week, We will be stocking matching molded high-quality adapters that fit the 14-50 (and most others) and connect tightly to the EVSE Upgrade. If you don't want an adapter, then install the wiring capable of a 14-50, but install the L6-30 outlet instead. Changing up later is easy.
-Phil
For the bulk of all normal residential charging, ~3kW is sufficient, after all, there are well over 10,000 EV's on the road with as a limit! For most all situations an overnight charge meets the needs of EV ownership. As long as the car is ready for you when you leave, there is no problem. Where faster charging is really desired, is in public where you will likely be waiting patiently for each mile of precious range added. (rather than sleeping it away!) This is where >6kW makes sense.
I have the ability to QC my 2011 at home using my Microturbine Trailer (lots of info here), and I've only ever done it once outside of testing. I will say that about a handful of times I have charged at 6.7kW for a hour or 2 before running more errands, and it was handy. The most you can charge a 2013 LEAF at home is almost 6kW (actual power into the pack).
My advice is to go ahead and add a NEMA 14-50 if possible, as it's the most flexible. This week, We will be stocking matching molded high-quality adapters that fit the 14-50 (and most others) and connect tightly to the EVSE Upgrade. If you don't want an adapter, then install the wiring capable of a 14-50, but install the L6-30 outlet instead. Changing up later is easy.
-Phil
smkettner
Well-known member
3x evse upgrade set to 10 amps each plugged into a shared 40a circuit.MikeD said:
Otherwise you will need to manually juggle the charging needs and priority.
Ingineer
Well-known member
You can do this off-the-shelf. They make a 3-way L6-30 adapter.smkettner said:
You can run 2 EVSE's at 15A each, or 3 at 10A. (Or other combinations, such as one at 20A and one at 10A, etc. as long as the total doesn't exceed 30A.
Also, for those that may cry foul, NEC allows multiple 30A outlets to be installed on a 40A breaker, you just can't install one 30A outlet on a 40A breaker, go figure.
-Phil
wwhitney
Well-known member
Actually the NEC doesn't allow any 30A outlets on a 40A breaker, see 2008 NEC Table 210.21(B)(3) for the case of multiple receptacles on a circuit. The only time a receptacle can have a rating less than the breaker protecting it is for a 15A receptacle on a 20A circuit, which is fine as UL tests standard 15A receptacles for 20A pass through.Ingineer said:
Cheers, Wayne
Ingineer
Well-known member
You are reading this wrong. That requirement only applies to circuits over 50A:wwhitney said:
Note that Table 210.21(B)(3) Specifically is labelled "Maximum Cord-and-Plug-Connected Load to Receptacle". It's tricky! The "or" is referring to the branch circuit. As long as the maximum load placed on the receptacle doesn't exceed 24 amps for a 30 amp receptacle, and your circuit isn't above the 50A level, you can do it.
So you can put 2 or more 30A receptacles on up to a 50A breaker. This is done all the time in industrial settings, say for a string of outlets for running cord-and-plug connected tools, etc.
-Phil
wwhitney
Well-known member
I don't think so. As you quoted, Table 210.21(B)(3) applies for circuits up to 50 amps, and then the second half of the 210.21(B)(3) applies to circuits over 50 amps.Ingineer said:
That's the title to (2008) Table 210.21(B)(2). Table 210.21(B)(3) is "Receptacle Ratings for Various Size Circuits" and tells you, e.g., that on a 50 amp circuit with two or more receptacles, all receptacles must be 50 amps. So I think you may be looking at the wrong table.Ingineer said:
Cheers, Wayne
wwhitney: I saw this new article in a draft copy of the 2014 NEC:
"210.17 Electric Vehicle Branch Circuit. Outlet(s) installed for the purpose of charging electric vehicles shall be supplied by a separate branch circuit. This circuit shall have no other outlets."
Relevant NEC definitions:
"Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." [i.e. not all outlets are receptacles]
"Branch Circuit, Individual. A branch circuit that supplies only one utilization equipment."
This article is not clear in its intent, IMO. They did not use the specially defined "individual branch circuit" term. So it seems to say that if you install a new outlet (receptacle or direct wire) for a EVSE, it has to be either on an "individual branch circuit" or on a multi-outlet branch circuit in which all of the outlets are for the purpose of charging electric vehicles. However, I'm not aware of receptacles designed solely for EVSEs (usually they use either NEMA 5-15r or 6-50r), so I don't know how you could enforce a receptacle to be used only for an EVSE, although one could put a warning label on the receptacle ("FOR EVSE USE ONLY").
There may be other articles which restrict (and also clarify) this one.
Do you have any further insights on this article?
"210.17 Electric Vehicle Branch Circuit. Outlet(s) installed for the purpose of charging electric vehicles shall be supplied by a separate branch circuit. This circuit shall have no other outlets."
Relevant NEC definitions:
"Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." [i.e. not all outlets are receptacles]
"Branch Circuit, Individual. A branch circuit that supplies only one utilization equipment."
This article is not clear in its intent, IMO. They did not use the specially defined "individual branch circuit" term. So it seems to say that if you install a new outlet (receptacle or direct wire) for a EVSE, it has to be either on an "individual branch circuit" or on a multi-outlet branch circuit in which all of the outlets are for the purpose of charging electric vehicles. However, I'm not aware of receptacles designed solely for EVSEs (usually they use either NEMA 5-15r or 6-50r), so I don't know how you could enforce a receptacle to be used only for an EVSE, although one could put a warning label on the receptacle ("FOR EVSE USE ONLY").
There may be other articles which restrict (and also clarify) this one.
Do you have any further insights on this article?
schamberlin
Member
Original poster here. If anyone's curious, what I finally did was hire an electrician to install a new 40A 240V line, and put an outlet on it. That cost only half as much as having a 40A line and a hard-wired EVSE installed - which doesn't really make sense, I suspect there may be some "premium pricing" going on with EVSE installs. I did explain what the outlet was for and how I'd be using it, so I wasn't trying to hide anything.
I selected a 6-50 outlet, which is the de facto standard for plug-in EVSEs. But I chose the Clipper Creek LCS-25, which is not actually a plug-in, so I'll put a 6-50 plug on it myself. That's saving me several hundred dollars vs having the same EVSE installed hard-wired.
The LCS-25 was $545 after rebate. It's a 20A EVSE, and I know there are a few 30A EVSEs coming soon at about the same price, but my 2011 Leaf can't take advantage of their faster charging rate. I considered getting a 30A model anyway for future-proofing my next car, but ultimately decided I'd rather have the known reliability and trouble-free operation of the Clipper Creek, than risk possible headaches with a new unproven model with a charge rate that's no better for my present car. If a few years from now I get another EV that supports faster charging, I'll just unplug the Clipper Creek, sell it on eBay, and replace it with another plug-in EVSE.
The total setup:
New 40A breaker, wiring, and 6-50 outlet: $450
Clipper Creek LCS-25: $545
6-50 plug: $15
Grand Total -- $1010
I selected a 6-50 outlet, which is the de facto standard for plug-in EVSEs. But I chose the Clipper Creek LCS-25, which is not actually a plug-in, so I'll put a 6-50 plug on it myself. That's saving me several hundred dollars vs having the same EVSE installed hard-wired.
The LCS-25 was $545 after rebate. It's a 20A EVSE, and I know there are a few 30A EVSEs coming soon at about the same price, but my 2011 Leaf can't take advantage of their faster charging rate. I considered getting a 30A model anyway for future-proofing my next car, but ultimately decided I'd rather have the known reliability and trouble-free operation of the Clipper Creek, than risk possible headaches with a new unproven model with a charge rate that's no better for my present car. If a few years from now I get another EV that supports faster charging, I'll just unplug the Clipper Creek, sell it on eBay, and replace it with another plug-in EVSE.
The total setup:
New 40A breaker, wiring, and 6-50 outlet: $450
Clipper Creek LCS-25: $545
6-50 plug: $15
Grand Total -- $1010
