Where did the charge go?

[amsillett]

I just bought a 2012 Leaf SL, and then promptly returned it.
I did a test drive this past Sunday, with the dashboard gauge showing full charge (no missing segments), I drove a route (on ECO mode) that included city, freeway (65mph, 6 miles), and county side with a few hills. The outside temp mid 40's, heating set to Auto 68F. The car reported 3.8 miles / kWh average. I did 47 miles, with 3 miles projected left and warning announcement. This did not meet my expectation so I returned it. Now I am being told it was performing as expected no failures.
If the battery was fully charged lets say a usable charge of 20 kWh taking into account some loss due to age and use (27k). I drove 47 miles averaging 3.8 miles/kWh, so I used 12kWh. Is the energy used to heat the cabin included in the mile/kWh computation? If so,I am missing 8kWh, if not, am I to believe that it took 8kWh of charge to run the heater?
People are telling me that I will get the same result from any other Leaf of similar age.
I really liked the car and am hoping another one will perform better, I would expect at least 60 miles range if I am averaging 3.8 miles/kWh + heating.
Can anyone on the forum explain where the missing 8 ish kWh went? The engineer in me needs to account for this discrepancy. Is my hope for 60 miles just wishful thinking?

 

[Jefe]

I just bought a 2012 Leaf SL, and then promptly returned it.
I did a test drive this past Sunday, with the dashboard gauge showing full charge (no missing segments), I drove a route (on ECO mode) that included city, freeway (65mph, 6 miles), and county side with a few hills. The outside temp mid 40's, heating set to Auto 68F. The car reported 3.8 miles / kWh average. I did 47 miles, with 3 miles projected left and warning announcement. This did not meet my expectation so I returned it. Now I am being told it was performing as expected no failures.
If the battery was fully charged lets say a usable charge of 20 kWh taking into account some loss due to age and use (27k). I drove 47 miles averaging 3.8 miles/kWh, so I used 12kWh. Is the energy used to heat the cabin included in the mile/kWh computation? If so,I am missing 8kWh, if not, am I to believe that it took 8kWh of charge to run the heater?
People are telling me that I will get the same result from any other Leaf of similar age.
I really liked the car and am hoping another one will perform better, I would expect at least 60 miles range if I am averaging 3.8 miles/kWh + heating.
Can anyone on the forum explain where the missing 8 ish kWh went? The engineer in me needs to account for this discrepancy. Is my hope for 60 miles just wishful thinking?

No 2 Leafs are going to have the exact same experience in terms of battery degradation, so you can't assume you would get the same results from any other Leaf of similar age.

you say you had full charge, well that is relative. There are 2 sets of bars, the ones on the left represent the relative state of charge, the ones on the right represent the battery's lifetime capacity. Each Leaf starts with 12 bars but will drop bars as the battery degrades. Do you believe that you had 12 bars on the right side? I fully suspect that at 27K with the type of performance you reported that you had less than 12 bars there. Even on a relative charge, the left side can show full 12 bars, while the right side shows fewer. And even with 12 bars, that may not represent a 100% charge. the '12 doesn't have a battery percentage meter, but 12 bars can be as low as 92%.

There are a lot of factors here, the heater on the '12 is a battery suck, so you are going to see a lot of loss of range there.

 

[amsillett]

When I started from full charge, there were an equal number of lit segments on the two gauges: the millage gauge and the capacity gauge. So I do believe the battery was still reporting full capacity.

 

[RonDawg]

Nissan designed the car so that the first bar doesn't disappear until 15% has been lost. Plus some unscrupulous dealers have been known to reset the computer, which temporarily gives you 12 bars. It takes a while for the car to realize it's been fooled and start reporting the true capacity again. Unfortunately that may not happen until the car is past the "buyers remorse" period that a used car buyer may entitled to, either due to state law or a dealer policy.

Take a note of my sig line and see how a car of the same year and similar mileage has fared thus far. I live in a warm-ish part of LA, but the car was always garaged at home and at work until very recently. It was never quick-charged (doesn't have the port) and I also didn't charge to 100% unless I needed to do so for the day, and the car didn't sit for more than a few hours in that state. Unless your (now ex-) Leaf previously resided in a cool summer climate like Seattle, it's likely to be down at least that much.

The only way to know for sure how much capacity is left is to use an OBDII tool and a smartphone app like LeafSpy or LeafStat. A few folks have even reported a bit of capacity loss on NEW cars that were sitting unsold for a while.

And yes heater usage can account for the "missing electrons" depending on the temperature difference between outside temp and the setting of the HVAC. On the 2011/2012 models there is no way to shut off the heater, so if the outside temp is below 60 F the heater will always run, since the thermostat cannot be set any lower. The only way around this is to completely shut off the system (and put up with frost and fog on the windows), to modify the circuit board for the HVAC controls (there are instructions to do that elsewhere in this forum) or to get a 2013 or later model which does have a heater-off switch and (if you get an SV or SL) a more efficient heat-pump heating system.

Cold batteries also don't hold as much of a charge as a warm one does. It is not unheard of in cold climates to have as little as 30 miles of range.

 

[Moof]

Assuming you are right that it had 12 capacity bars and was fully charged, you likely started out with about 18 kWh of usable capacity. A 2012 with the original battery even in a moderate climate is likely very close to losing the first capacity bar and is likely down close to 15%. If it is 15% degradation from 21.2 kWh (new capacity) it would be 18.0 kWh. If the battery was cold soaked at 40F you lose access to a little more, maybe another 0.5-1 kWh.

Keep in mind that Nissan has mangled every number and display you see on a Leaf dash. Every single one. The GOM lies, the speedometer lies, the charge bars are non-linear, the capacity bars are non-linear, etc.

So indeed you used up 12.7 kWh out of 17.5'ish kWh, leaving 4.8 kWh up for discussion. With 3 miles showing there is about 3 kWh left in the battery to shutdown, they hide about 2 kWh when the display stops showing numbers, and the 3 miles left showing is the other 1 kWh. Missing is about 2 kWh.

Did you reset the mi/kWh when you started?

If not the 3.8 mi/kWh is the average since the previous owner or dealer reset it. Lately with wet roads and 40F days I have dropped down to 3-3.4 mi/kWh thanks to heavy defroster usage (hopping in the car all wet after playing ultimate frisbee twice a week makes my windows fog up perpetually).

The sad fact is that for "normal" drivers the summer time range is ~75 miles when new. Winter time can result in a good 25-50% drop depending on conditions. A 2012 is likely down about 15% in moderate climates, 30-40% in hot desert ones. So your 47 miles (probably 55 to shutdown) does not surprise me, but I completely understand your disappointment.

With just one capacity bar recently gone my 2011 just barely makes it to the airport and back (50 mile round trip) on a 50F dry day keeping it to 55 mph most of the way not using the heater at all and getting about 4.0-4,2 mi/kWh (don't quite remember), hitting the low battery warning a block from my house.

 

[dhanson865]

I just bought a 2012 Leaf SL, and then promptly returned it.

I did a test drive this past Sunday, with the dashboard gauge showing full charge (no missing segments), I drove a route (on ECO mode) that included city, freeway (65mph, 6 miles), and county side with a few hills. The outside temp mid 40's, heating set to Auto 68F. The car reported 3.8 miles / kWh average. I did 47 miles, with 3 miles projected left and warning announcement. This did not meet my expectation so I returned it. Now I am being told it was performing as expected no failures.

If the battery was fully charged lets say a usable charge of 20 kWh taking into account some loss due to age and use (27k). I drove 47 miles averaging 3.8 miles/kWh, so I used 12kWh. Is the energy used to heat the cabin included in the mile/kWh computation? If so,I am missing 8kWh, if not, am I to believe that it took 8kWh of charge to run the heater?

People are telling me that I will get the same result from any other Leaf of similar age.
I really liked the car and am hoping another one will perform better, I would expect at least 60 miles range if I am averaging 3.8 miles/kWh + heating.

Can anyone on the forum explain where the missing 8 ish kWh went? The engineer in me needs to account for this discrepancy. Is my hope for 60 miles just wishful thinking?

1. You can keep driving well past the warning when you had 3 miles projected left but you'd need an OBDII adapter, leafspy app, and some experience to know how far and at what speed. You absolutely left several kWh at the bottom of the pack, likely way more than you imagined.

2. Use the seat heater and steering wheel heat and turn the cabin heat OFF or set to 60F if you absolutely need it. PTC heater is crazy inefficient for the little heat it gives. Just not worth using resistant heat in an EV if you care about range.

3. A brand new battery is 21 kWh usable and a used car could have much less, need ODBII and leafspy before we can have any reasonable discussion about how much that car had.

Just way too many, you gotta know this to measure that's in this car to answer a first post like that with anything short of you don't have any idea what you are asking but welcome to the club.

OK, short on why Nissan hides top of the pack and bottom of the pack is that over charge and undercharge damages the battery pack. Long is we have a few hundred thousand messages here you can read about that.

 

[amsillett]

Thanks all for the answers.
Now I feel comfortable about where the charge went. I had not realized it could be down 15% ish and not show a drop in capacity on the gauge. Nor did I realize it holds 2 kWh in reserve.
Now that I have a more realistic idea of winter range, I need to think hard about whether it is sufficient for our needs, and how much worse it might get in the next few years.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Did you reset the mi/kWh when you started?

If not the 3.8 mi/kWh is the average since the previous owner or dealer reset it. Lately with wet roads and 40F days I have dropped down to 3-3.4 mi/kWh thanks to heavy defroster usage (hopping in the car all wet after playing ultimate frisbee twice a week makes my windows fog up perpetually).

This was my thought too. Frankly, 3.8 mi/kWh seems very high for outside temp in the mid 40s and inside set to 68F. In my 2012 SV, I normally get about 3.0 mi/kWh in those conditions. Yes, the number displayed on the dash considers energy used by the HVAC system. But if you didn't reset it before you left, who knows how many miles at maybe 4.0 mi/kWh you had factored into that average.

I completely understand why you brought the car back. If you have that option, and have any doubts about the car, it's better to return it and sort out your concerns than to be stuck with a car that won't work! Good luck in your continued quest for a car.