Which will sell more, Leaf, Volt or PiP?

[DANandNAN]

P.S. I'm glad you like your PHEV.

:? um, ok

 

[TomT]

Assuming an equal level of availability, which is a big if, I suspect the PIP will sell best because it is cheaper than the Volt and has more usable space, even though it's EV-only range is pitiful and it is clearly less sophisticated. I think the Volt will be second because many are not yet ready to give up the comfort factor of having an ICE on-board and thus will shun pure EVs...

 

[TomT]

Assuming an equal level of availability, which is a big if, I suspect the PIP will sell best because it is cheaper than the Volt and has more usable space, even though it's EV-only range is pitiful and it is clearly less sophisticated. I think the Volt will be second because many are not yet ready to give up the comfort factor of having an ICE on-board and thus will shun pure EVs...

If the Volt were available in a Prius PHEV, or much better yet, V form-factor, it would easily be our next second car... I'm not sure we'll be able to wait for the Ford C-Max Energi, plus, the pre-production versions I have seen have left me cold...

 

[mitch672]

DANandNAN, for some, the PiP works just fine, as I've stated, 1 way commute is 15 miles, because its always stop and go traffic, I make it most days in EV (so much for your 6-11 mile quoted EV range, we have some PiPs making it over 20 miles/charge in-city driving), I charge at work and 2/3 or more of the trip home is in EV as well. I don't think burning gas is "evil", I am using much less than my last 2010 Prius, going 3-4 weeks on 8-9 gallons is fine, as that used to be a weekly fillup. Not everyone needs the range of a Volt, it all depends on your drive cycle and recharge opportunities, when the EV range is exceeded, 52mpg+ even better than my last Prius, as it will be for vast numbers of people.

The key is using less gasoline, not eliminating it completely, most Americans are not ready to take that step - yet, as battery technology, weight and cost all improve, eventually BEV's will be more affordable, and with better range, will be the next logical step for many driving PHEVs, but that is still years away right now.

 

[SanDust]

If Toyota is only selling 15K PIPs then it's pretty clear that, given the Leaf's low numbers and the fact we're in a pretty good way into the year, it would be Volt > PIP > Leaf. I know that Nissan is saying they'll sell 20K Leafs in 2012 but that seems unrealistic. If they did then it would be close between the Volt and the Leaf and the PIP would come in third.

The bigger point might be that hybrids seem more appealing than BEVs, which is what many predicted.

I have trouble seeing the PIP as a longer term vehicle. It costs considerably more than the Prius and only offers a modest increase in MPG. Additionally, unlike the Volt which can easily become a ZEV vehicle for CARB purposes, the Prius will always be stuck as a AT-PZEV.

 

[DANandNAN]

DANandNAN, for some, the PiP works just fine, as I've stated, 1 way commute is 15 miles, because its always stop and go traffic, I make it most days in EV (so much for your 6-11 mile quoted EV range, we have some PiPs making it over 20 miles/charge in-city driving), I charge at work and 2/3 or more of the trip home is in EV as well. I don't think burning gas is "evil", I am using much less than my last 2010 Prius, going 3-4 weeks on 8-9 gallons is fine, as that used to be a weekly fillup. Not everyone needs the range of a Volt, it all depends on your drive cycle and recharge opportunities, when the EV range is exceeded, 52mpg+ even better than my last Prius, as it will be for vast numbers of people.

The key is using less gasoline, not eliminating it completely, most Americans are not ready to take that step - yet, as battery technology, weight and cost all improve, eventually BEV's will be more affordable, and with better range, will be the next logical step for many driving PHEVs, but that is still years away right now.

Yes, and we have some Volts that make it 57 miles and there are some Leafs that make it 105-110 miles. Their commute is not the norm and neither is yours. But, yes the PiP 6-10 mile "EV" range (and even the occasional 15 mile) works for some people and I've never denied it. But, that's a pretty small number of people and Toyota knows that. Toyota didn't put any technological innovations into the PiP - they added a charge port so you can start off fully charged. They could have, no should have done more. If they want to be the leader you claim they are, then they should lead. They're not. The PiP and other PiP variants indicate that the manufacturers were caught blindsided by the success of EV and quickly through something together. Toyota's borrowing from Tesla, Ford & Toyota are sharing info, and only Ford will bring an EV to the market this year.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that Nissan, GM and now Ford will all have EV's (RLBEV & EREV) and Toyota's entry still burns gas if you accelerate too hard or drive too fast?

We can't stop the use of gasoline. The key is innovative vehicles that aren't full of compromises - now go tell Toyota.

 

[cwerdna]

GM set the bar, 40+ miles in pure EV then a range extending generator that's getting ~45MPG.

It seems that you're stretching the truth on the Volt's CS mileage. It was either you or someone else who did that before here on MNL. What speeds are you talking about?

Per http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31618" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, EPA rating on the Volt in CS mode in 35 city/40 highway, 37 mpg combined.

In CR's testing (their highway almost always exceeds EPA highway #), they got 23 city/41 highway (see http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/10/update-chevrolet-volt-sees-fuel-economy-increase.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. From http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/chevrolet/volt/road-test.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (you'll need a subscription):

The 1.4-liter four-cylinder gas engine starts and stops smoothly but runs on premium fuel. With it running, the Volt returned a very good 32 mpg overall and 41 mpg on the highway...

I'm not stretching anything. The government stats are very low and CR is generally wrong. We get 45MPG in CS mode. There was one time when we needed it for .2 miles and the generator reved up and created a charge that we never used before shutting off and recharging - that charge is lost and the MPG was really low, somewhere around 34MPG. But, on our longer trips (more than .2 miles ) we get 45MPG. City is a bit less, but yes, that's our average. And, we drive it like our ICE cars, using AC on ECO mode on almost every drive.

Come on, you know the government stats were crazy, look at the 100 mile range for the Leaf v. how many folks achieve it. I think the testers decided to err on the side of caution after the 100 mile range debacle.

I'm only going to be convinced once you've got long trips under your belt in CS mode (same for scottf's post you quoted). I have no idea if you had a tailwind, net elevation loss, etc. on that drive.

As for CR's results, yes, their city numbers are quite low for ALL vehicles (see last page of http://www.consumersunion.org/Oct_CR_Fuel_Economy.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for their procedure vs. old EPA tests). Their highway numbers are actually reasonable. Gen 3 Prius figures are at http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/most-fuel-efficient-cars.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and Gen 2 at http://web.archive.org/web/20071228171729/http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/buying-advice/most-fuelefficient-cars-206/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Their overall figures are a tiny bit low due to the low city #.

My lifetime avg on my 06 Prius is ~45 to 46 mpg. What's the EPA combined mileage (after adjustment by formula)? 46 mpg. What's CR overall #? 44 mpg.

I still call your claims about Volt CS MPG exaggerations, just like your PiP misinformation.

BTW, to learn more about the EPA tests, read http://priuschat.com/forums/other-cars/67235-car-driver-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[cwerdna]

Toyota didn't put any technological innovations into the PiP - they added a charge port so you can start off fully charged. They could have, no should have done more. If they want to be the leader you claim they are, then they should lead. They're not. The PiP and other PiP variants indicate that the manufacturers were caught blindsided by the success of EV and quickly through something together. Toyota's borrowing from Tesla, Ford & Toyota are sharing info, and only Ford will bring an EV to the market this year.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that Nissan, GM and now Ford will all have EV's (RLBEV & EREV) and Toyota's entry still burns gas if you accelerate too hard or drive too fast?

We can't stop the use of gasoline. The key is innovative vehicles that aren't full of compromises - now go tell Toyota.

First off, Toyota doesn't seem to be too focused on EVs and making them a priority, right or wrong. At least, that's been the company line for a long time. I wish I could find other quotes from their execs besides http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/11/toyota%E2%80%99s-prius-chief-engineer-reveals-the-future-of-the-automobile-part-two-what-will-we-drive-in-10-years/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. (It'll take some digging).

It seems pretty clear the upcoming RAV4 EV is a CA compliance vehicle.

Toyota had introduced the PHV Prius demonstrators in late 2009 (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/11/20/toyota-starts-discussions-on-who-will-get-phev-priuses/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. Some lucky folks (such as the Priuschat founder, Danny) got to drive the demonstrators pretty early in 2010 (http://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/prius-plug-in/test-drives.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

As for "Toyota didn't put any technological innovations into the PiP - they added a charge port so you can start off fully charged." That's a mischaracterization. They went from a small NiMH battery to a much larger li-ion, added a J1772 port and had to add more cooling. http://priuschat.com/news/2012-toyota-prius-plug-in-15-mile-ev-range-87-mpge-32000" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (mainly under Packaging and Weight Optimization) mentions some other stuff they had to do on the PiP. But, they didn't need to change much else. The 3rd gen Prius already was suitable as a base.

In the brief time the PiP's been out, its CYTD US sales have already passed the Leaf's CYTD sales (http://www.hybridcars.com/news/april-2012-dashboard-45388.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

 

[DANandNAN]

I'm only going to be convinced once you've got long trips under your belt in CS mode (same for scottf's post you quoted). I have no idea if you had a tailwind, net elevation loss, etc. on that drive.

As for CR's results, yes, their city numbers are quite low for ALL vehicles (see last page of http://www.consumersunion.org/Oct_CR_Fuel_Economy.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for their procedure vs. old EPA tests). Their highway numbers are actually reasonable. Gen 3 Prius figures are at http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/most-fuel-efficient-cars.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and Gen 2 at http://web.archive.org/web/20071228171729/http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/buying-advice/most-fuelefficient-cars-206/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Their overall figures are a tiny bit low due to the low city #.

My lifetime avg on my 06 Prius is ~45 to 46 mpg. What's the EPA combined mileage (after adjustment by formula)? 46 mpg. What's CR overall #? 44 mpg.

I still call your claims about Volt CS MPG exaggerations, just like your PiP misinformation.

BTW, to learn more about the EPA tests, read http://priuschat.com/forums/other-cars/67235-car-driver-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I think you overestimate how much I care about whether you believe me. I showed you a picture from someone else that's achieved better than we did, it's not enough. I really don't care - sorry (not really).

I have an SUV that was estimated to get 21 MPG highway. I've never seen 19. 16 in the city, it's never seen that either. You drive a Leaf that was estimated to get 100 miles of range, yet about 70 is the norm. The EPA is wrong a lot. But, please continue on quoting the EPA #'s.

The PiP reports from owners say 6-10 miles with a few that get better. I've never seen anyone get 20 but I'm not calling Mitch a liar.

 

[DANandNAN]

Toyota didn't put any technological innovations into the PiP - they added a charge port so you can start off fully charged. They could have, no should have done more. If they want to be the leader you claim they are, then they should lead. They're not. The PiP and other PiP variants indicate that the manufacturers were caught blindsided by the success of EV and quickly through something together. Toyota's borrowing from Tesla, Ford & Toyota are sharing info, and only Ford will bring an EV to the market this year.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that Nissan, GM and now Ford will all have EV's (RLBEV & EREV) and Toyota's entry still burns gas if you accelerate too hard or drive too fast?

We can't stop the use of gasoline. The key is innovative vehicles that aren't full of compromises - now go tell Toyota.

First off, Toyota doesn't seem to be too focused on EVs and making them a priority, right or wrong. At least, that's been the company line for a long time. I wish I could find other quotes from their execs besides http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/11/toyota%E2%80%99s-prius-chief-engineer-reveals-the-future-of-the-automobile-part-two-what-will-we-drive-in-10-years/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. (It'll take some digging).

It seems pretty clear the upcoming RAV4 EV is a CA compliance vehicle.

Toyota had introduced the PHV Prius demonstrators in late 2009 (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/11/20/toyota-starts-discussions-on-who-will-get-phev-priuses/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. Some lucky folks (such as the Priuschat founder, Danny) got to drive the demonstrators pretty early in 2010 (http://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/prius-plug-in/test-drives.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

As for "Toyota didn't put any technological innovations into the PiP - they added a charge port so you can start off fully charged." That's a mischaracterization. They went from a small NiMH battery to a much larger li-ion, added a J1772 port and had to add more cooling. http://priuschat.com/news/2012-toyota-prius-plug-in-15-mile-ev-range-87-mpge-32000" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (mainly under Packaging and Weight Optimization) mentions some other stuff they had to do on the PiP. But, they didn't need to change much else. The 3rd gen Prius already was suitable as a base.

In the brief time the PiP's been out, its CYTD US sales have already passed the Leaf's CYTD sales (http://www.hybridcars.com/news/april-2012-dashboard-45388.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

I have to run, but the fact that Toyota had a PiP in 2009, saw what Nissan and GM and now Ford have done and they STILL didn't change anything speaks volumes. They had 2 years to make changes yet 6-10 miles (I know, you get 15) and an engine that starts at the drop of a hat is the best they can do? Come on, you know that's a terrible, terrible first effort. And I was pulling for Toyota and Honda (another HUGE disappointment). I'm not a brand zealot, I'm willing to switch at any time. The PiP is a huge letdown.

And, yes, the PiP has already posted some impressive numbers. But, as was said on another thread/forum (IIRC it was by you?) the numbers probably won't be sustained once the HOV folks get their stickers back.

 

[cwerdna]

The PiP reports from owners say 6-10 miles with a few that get better. I've never seen anyone get 20 but I'm not calling Mitch a liar.

Few? http://priuschat.com/forums/toyota-prius-plug-in/poll-1102-what-your-full-ev-range-startup-without-fan.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From http://priuschat.com/forums/toyota-prius-plug-in/108224-professional-reviewers-keep-repeating-pip-only-get-6-miles-pure-electric-vehicle-range.html#post1542083" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; about the "6 miles" business:

Because they're quoting the EPA numbers? Those look like it to me. 6 miles before the engine comes on and blended EV miles is 11.

The test isn't setup for the PHV because after 6 miles, the test requires a hard acceleration. That's not a problem with the Volt because it's designed to keep the engine off until the battery is in C-S mode. The PHV was designed to be the most efficient vehicle in all possible scenarios and I guess Toyota engineers decided that petrol is a better use of energy than electrons for hard acceleration (rather than draining the battery and running in HV mode).

This is why the PHV gets 50mpg combined in gas mode vs 37 or whatever the number is for the Volt.

 

[eHelmholtz]

By the way, did you invent this "RL"BEV term just to annoy folks? It's a BEV, period.

This may sound daft but what's an RLBEV?

 

[cwerdna]

I have to run, but the fact that Toyota had a PiP in 2009, saw what Nissan and GM and now Ford have done and they STILL didn't change anything speaks volumes. They had 2 years to make changes yet 6-10 miles (I know, you get 15) and an engine that starts at the drop of a hat is the best they can do? Come on, you know that's a terrible, terrible first effort. And I was pulling for Toyota and Honda (another HUGE disappointment). I'm not a brand zealot, I'm willing to switch at any time. The PiP is a huge letdown.

And, yes, the PiP has already posted some impressive numbers. But, as was said on another thread/forum (IIRC it was by you?) the numbers probably won't be sustained once the HOV folks get their stickers back.

I guess you don't understand typical car design, engineering and production time spans. What has Ford done? How many PHEVs and BEVs have they sold?

Terrible first effort? There's always a balance that needs to be struck between price, weight, cargo and passenger volume, battery capacity, charge times (if too long, that might steer people to have go to L2 charging, which is more $), FE, costs (including recouping development and tooling costs), economies of scale and what customers want.

Look at the Volt: it has inferior mileage, is EPA rated as a compact (vs. the midsized Prius), is heavy, can only seat four, is costly and it didn't meet CA AT-PZEV requirements (thus was ineligible for green HOV stickers and CVRP) until the new '12 eAT-PZEV version. GM missed all sorts of their claims (e.g. price, target of 50 mpg in CS mode, "230 mpg", sales targets, etc.)

The 1st gen (NHW11) Prius shipped in the US in August 2000. Now, over 11 years later, the Volt's mileage (in CS mode) is still inferior to the 1st gen Prius per the EPA test. GM still has nothing that matches the Prius in combined mileage. Yes, I'm using the EPA test results so that there's a consistent and equivalent baseline test to compare.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the numbers probably won't be sustained once the HOV folks get their stickers back." CA HOV yellow stickers expired for hybrid owners on July 1, 2011 (http://dmv.ca.gov/vr/decal.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. NONE of those folks (including me) are "getting them back". They're dead. They are not being resurrected.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; lists which vehicles are eligible for still valid green and white CA HOV stickers.

Now, whether or not the extra price of the PiP (and the forced extra features on the base model) is "worth it" in terms of "payback" is another question. Even I admit, probably no and thus have no plans to buy one. I'm not planning to replace my Prius until the 4th gen comes out and even then won't likely buy a PHEV version.

 

[mitch672]

...Toyota didn't put any technological innovations into the PiP

Doesn't it seem odd to you that Nissan, GM and now Ford will all have EV's (RLBEV & EREV) and Toyota's entry still burns gas if you accelerate too hard or drive too fast?

Really now, no technical innovations at all? I suppose changing the traction pack from the 1.3KW to 4.4KW, and changing the chemistry to Lithium as well was nothing.

Developing Entune that allows remote charge management, and sends Advanced PiP owners email notifications of different charging events, that was nothing too. The remote telematics allow turning on the AC and also locating the vehicle, comming this summer the statistics will be collected, similar to what the Volt and Leaf have.

Allowing the driver to select EV driving or HV driving (something that GM thinks isn't needed, since the Volt can't do it), that, well, that's nothing too. The driver probably has a better grasp of their route, and when it would be best to use EV only, or blended operation in HV.

Getting 52+ MPG on their 15 year old well developed and tested platform, again, nothing (of course GM has no interest in that, as they just jammed whatever stock engine they had lying around into the Volt), again, that's nothing.

The regen on the Prius is now amazing, I can regen several miles in EV, as the pack is now much larger, again, this is nothing. How do you think we are getting 15-20 miles in EV, with a 4.4KW pack, with 3KW that are usable? Again, this is nothing, and I'm sure the Volt does this of course , probably just not as well, they are on their Gen 1 product..

Face it, the Plug in Prius is superior to the Volt in almost every way, and when 3rd party mfrs start comming up with add on/larger replacement packs, the only advantage the Volt has (larger EV range), well, that will vanish as well.

Because Toyta has superior MPG, they choose to use the engine, where it works best, thats called "using all of the power sources availbe", no instead, they should carry around the dead weight of the engine, the way the Volt does? Nope, use what you have when it makes sense.

The next generation Prius arrives in late 2014, as MY2015, I hope GM is working on the Volt 2, as you can be sure the largest car manufacturer on the planet (sorry, wasn't that GM way back?), will have something spectacular to deliver, I'm sure. Will there even be another model Volt? No one knows, we do know the Prius is on the 3rd generation , and improvements have been continuous with each new generation.

BTW, just because GM calls the Volt an "EREV" (Extended Range EV, pleeeease, it's just a Plug in Hybrid, where GM forces the driver to use EV first, because the Volt gets inferior mileage as a Hybrid), doesn't mean the Leaf is a "RLEV" (Range Limited EV), the Leaf is simply an EV, and a damn good one at that, the Volt isn't even in the same league, other than it plugs in.

 

[mkjayakumar]

By the way, did you invent this "RL"BEV term just to annoy folks? It's a BEV, period.

This may sound daft but what's an RLBEV?

That is a way taking a dig at all BEVs, since they are all 'Range Limited'. Which is true even for an ICEV.

Tagging RL to BEV is similar to GPPHEV or GPEREV. GP for Gas Polluting..

 

[scottf200]

There are several inaccuracies in the above statements about the Volt. We'll see how the PiP competes when the early buyers and non-CA HOV buyers look at it. The ride, performance, and fun factor are not even close and this is stated by many former and current Prius owners.

I'm sure all these awards mean nothing and I'm missing several!!! Clearly it is a *EV unique design and somewhere between a BEV and a typical limited PHEV. Full performance of an EV until the battery runs out. If you don't see that clearly your glasses and judgements are clouded.

Ampera and Volt voted European ‘Car of the Year 2012’
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Mar/0305_volt_coty" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
GENEVA – The Opel Ampera and the Chevrolet Volt electric cars with extended-range capability today won the European “Car of the Year 2012” award voted by a panel of 59 judges from 23 European nations.

Opel Ampera wins top international ECOBEST award
http://com.opel-ampera.mobi/;pnr=52/mas/news_events/press_releases" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The AUTOBEST panel of judges, made up of leading journalists from central and Eastern Europe, presented the prestigious award. The 15 judges, who represent a market of around 300 million people, praised the revolutionary propulsion system.

PROFESSIONAL AUTOMOBILE reviews and drivers awards
Motor Trend 2011 Car of the Year -
http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/1101_2011_motor_trend_car_of_the_year_chevrolet_volt/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AUTOMOBILE Magazine 2011 Automobile of the Year -
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/awards/1101_2011_automobile_of_the_year_chevrolet_volt/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2011 North American Car of the Year -
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2011/01/detroit-auto-show-chevrolet-volt-wins-car-of-the-year-award.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Car and Driver 10 Best for 2011 -
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/10q4/2011_10best_cars-10best_cars/2011_chevrolet_volt_page_4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Green Car Journal 2011 Green Car of the Year
http://www.greencar.com/articles/chevrolet-volt-electric-car-2011-green-car-year.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2009 Environmental Grand Prize awarded at the 2009 Festival International Automobile

2011 World Green Car announced at the 2011 New York Auto Show

MotorWeek 2011 Best Eco-Friendly

Chicago Auto Show Best Green Vehicle

Mobile Application awards:

Popular Science Best of What’s New 2010

Consumer Electronics Show’s “Top Products” Award for OnStar MyLink for Volt Mobile Application

TECHNOLGOY related awards
SAE International's Automotive Engineering International (AEI) magazine have selected the 2011 Chevrolet Volt as the "Best Engineered Vehicle of 2011." The announcement was made during the SAE 2011 World Congress, April 12-14, in Detroit, Mich.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/chevrolet-volt-named-aeis-best-engineered-vehicle-of-2011-119799319.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ward’s AutoWorld 10 Best Engines for 2011 -
http://wardsauto.com/ar/names_best_engines_101207/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2010 Breakthrough Technology, by Popular Mechanics -
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/news/chevrolet-volt-top-products-2010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chevrolet Volt: Charging into the Future
http://www.amazon.com/Chevrolet-Volt-Charging-into-Future/dp/0760338930" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SAE International has published an entire magazine devoted just to the Volt
http://pages.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sae/10EVSD1104/offline/sae_10EVSD1104_pdf.zip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This publication was produced by the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers). Their EV subsite is at ev.sae.org (also evsae.com ), where they appear to have several of these articles in regular web form. The link that Lyle provided is to their online, Flash-based document viewer. I looked around for a way to get a hardcopy (I'll pay for it!) but haven't found it yet.

You CAN download this as a regular PDF, however it takes a little effort:
1. Go to the document viewer link that Lyle provided.
2. In the upper right corner, click on the "Save" icon (the floppy disk).
3. On the resulting web page, scroll down past the AIR installer stuff and click on the link to "download PDF version".
4. You will get a ZIP file. The PDF is inside that ZIP.

Edit: Per CalCars, you can get to the PDF directly via this link (PDF is inside the ZIP file):
http://pages.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sa...SD1104_pdf.zip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I noticed from the masthead on page 3 that this is "Volume 1, Number 1" of the publication, so I'm glad to hear I haven't been missing out At the very end, on page 60, they have a brief discussion of the new publication and ev.sae.org, and mention that their publishing schedule for 2011 calls for new issues on Feb 23, May 25, Aug 24 and Nov 30.

 

[mitch672]

Scott, I'm not in CA, and we don't have any HOV lane access in MA. Sure, the PiP is attractive to CA HOV buyers, I guess it was important enough to GM as well, as they got a similar boost in sales when the Volts emissions system qualified it for HOV access as well.

The Prius has won awards as well, we just don't feel the need to post links to them.

Prius buyers know Toyota will be there, and stand behind their products, GM has already shown their true colors, as they abandon buyers of their products from the "old GM" (you know, the one that went bankrupt and the taxpayers had to bail out).

face it, Toyota doesn't have to have the latest and greatest, being conservative and careful planning has worked well for them, and will continue to, as buyers are confident in the brand, unlike certain other Johnny come lately mfrs.

 

[scottf200]

Scott, I'm not in CA, and we don't have any HOV lane access in MA. Sure, the PiP is attractive to CA HOV buyers, I guess it was important enough to GM as well, as they got a similar boost in sales when the Volts emissions system qualified it for HOV access as well.

The Prius has won awards as well, we just don't feel the need to post links to them.

Prius buyers know Toyota will be there, and stand behind their products, GM has already shown their true colors, as they abandon buyers of their products from the "old GM" (you know, the one that went bankrupt and the taxpayers had to bail out).

face it, Toyota doesn't have to have the latest and greatest, being conservative and careful planning has worked well for them, and will continue to, as buyers are confident in the brand, unlike certain other Johnny come lately mfrs.

The Volt is my first Chevrolet. You've seen Toyota reps quotes in the the article on the Prius sold in CA. CA carries the Prius. EV1s were a good test but $250K ... Toyota RAV4 EV was a good test too for Toyota right?. Back now for US$49,800. Yes Toyota is impressive. Nice method to ignore the awards and their meaning. Clearly all those awards and professionals behinds them understand the system is revolutionary and unique. Besides the car is more enjoyable to drive and own and this from previous and current Prius owners so seems like you'd believe that ... never mind.

 

[Herm]

The Volt, in its BEV mode gets 73 miles of range when hypermiled, approx equivalent to the 20 miles of range you get in your PIP if it has 3kWh of usable energy... and that is without the engine ever starting up... plus it can exceed 62mph, something the PIP cant do with out using the engine.

It is true the PIP gets better gas mileage than the Volt in its hybrid mode.. but I know what would happen if you added an additional 400lbs of batteries in the trunk of the PIP. You cant discount that the Volt has been tuned to a much higher level of performance than a PIP.

Its obvious the Volt is a much better deal, not even taking into account that in some configurations the PIP is more expensive. Too many compromises were made on the PIP, I'm sure 3 adults in the back seat will be real comfortable also.

 

[mitch672]

Well Scott, I've owned several GM products, that's why I tend to buy anything but GM now.
I could bore you with my 1986 Chevy C10 van, or my 1991 GMC Vandura 3500 experiences, or even my current 1994 Chevy Suburban (bought used dirt cheap, only used for snowplowing, due to its excellent 11MPG), but I'll let you discover the joys of owning GM products yourself

CARB is looking for a new class of EV's, true range extended models, let's see if the General steps up and designs something for BEVx, with an innovative design, and small range extender, because i'm sure Toyota will be working on that product, it will be a game changer without the complexity of the Volt or the Prius, and it could make a huge impact on BEV adoption by the masses, which is what is really needed.

The Volt isn't worth the sheet metal it's made of to me, as I can't even get into the drivers seat easily (funny, I have no issue getting into the Prius drivers seat), yes, I did test drive the Volt, what a massive let down that was, once the drivers seat was adjusted, there was zero leg room in the back seat for a passenger (unless they where a double amputee), the car has a tiny, crowded interior, the trunk is a trunk, and a poor excuse for a hatchback (deck is sunken down at least 6", a poor engineering job no doubt), nope wouldn't drive a Volt if it was given to me.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with using the engine at higher speeds, as you are carrying the hardware with you anyway, and EV charge is rapidly depleted at high speed, mostly because of the air resistance, why not use the engine, if it's availbe. If you don't want to use the engine, you should really just stick with an EV, no point in dragging that engine along with you, is there?