palmermd
Well-known member
Well that is one step too far.mitch672 said:
Which will sell more, Leaf, Volt or PiP?
- Thread starter mitch672
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
mitch672
Well-known member
palmermd said:
If you physically can't get into the car without great effort, what's the point?
I'd sell it and buy myself a Leaf, I certainly coudn't drive it.
TomT
Well-known member
Agreed! There is no place for such hubris here!
palmermd said:
TomT
Well-known member
Sorry, but that is simply a nonsensical argument. If you follow that same logic, imagine what will happen when the 3rd party manufacturers put a much larger pack in the Volt...
I have to agree that, in many ways, what the PIP brought to the market is older, less advanced technology than the Volt, and hardly cutting edge... To me, with it's tiny little pack and other limitations, it is much more of a hybrid on steroids than a true PHEV...
I have to agree that, in many ways, what the PIP brought to the market is older, less advanced technology than the Volt, and hardly cutting edge... To me, with it's tiny little pack and other limitations, it is much more of a hybrid on steroids than a true PHEV...
mitch672 said:
Even by CARB's standards the BEVx is an asinine idea. But the Volt in its current form would work fine. Just needs a slightly larger battery pack and an electronic governor that forces a limp mode. This would have the advantage that, if you moved to a state where the bureaucrats weren't smoking crack, you could hack the car and get full performance!mitch672 said:
FYI The BMW i3 seems to be moving in this direction and it has more or less copied the Volt's drive train. As for Toyota coming up with a stunner, the fact it needed to license Tesla's technology for their compliance vehicle speaks volumes.
mitch672
Well-known member
Toyota didn't "need" Tesla for anything, if you believe that you are not too savvy.
Toyota and GM unloaded their massive liability on the Numi plant to Tesla, a smart business move by Toyota. The RAV4 EV has been around before, they could have just updated the design, but since it's a compliance car only, and they only plan on making 2,600 of them during the next 3 years, perhaps they made a smart decision here as well... They only need the RAV4 to meet guidelines so they can sell their other cars in CA. Not wasting resources on a compliance car they make virtually no money on is a good business decision. Perhaps you should know the facts before opening your trap.
Toyota and GM unloaded their massive liability on the Numi plant to Tesla, a smart business move by Toyota. The RAV4 EV has been around before, they could have just updated the design, but since it's a compliance car only, and they only plan on making 2,600 of them during the next 3 years, perhaps they made a smart decision here as well... They only need the RAV4 to meet guidelines so they can sell their other cars in CA. Not wasting resources on a compliance car they make virtually no money on is a good business decision. Perhaps you should know the facts before opening your trap.
TomT
Well-known member
And perhaps we would all be better served if you followed your own advice and kept yours shut... Go over to the Toyota or Volt boards if you wish to continue your tirades. It's been a long time, but I finally have a worthy addition to my Foes list...
mitch672 said:
mitch672
Well-known member
Well TomT, irregardless if you see this or not, I'm right about the RAV4 EV, knowledge is a powerfull weapon against ignorance.
I do believe you're so hopelessly biased you can't even recognize it. Your first sentence says that GM and Toyota unloaded massive liability on to Tesla. Then you conclude this was a smart business move by Toyota. If true, wouldn't that have been a smart move by GM as well? :roll:mitch672 said:
And no, Toyota could not have "updated" the old RAV4s with the old NiMH batteries. Technology has moved on. You may be right and Toyota may have a boatload of great EV technology, but given that it felt it was necessary to license the battery and motor technology from a startup suggests that the cupboard is bare.
mitch672
Well-known member
Well SanDust we'll have to agree to disagree.
yes, unloading the massive liability that was/is Numi was a good decision for both Toyota and GM.
If you can't see why Toyota chose not to expend engineering resources on a limited run (2600 in the next 3 years) compliance car (with zero to negative profit margins), I'm certainly not going to be able convince you, but perhaps they thought their R&D funds could be spent on something more productive and useful to the companies long term plans... But you go on thinking the worlds largest auto manufacturer has nothing being developed for future EV's, they are perfectly content to cede the entire EV market to Nissan, GM, Ford, BMW, et all, why that makes a perfect business argument (not).
FYI, the only reason to produce the RAV4 EV is to avoid fines ($5,000) for each car not produced, Toyota doesn't want to make these, they are forced to, to continue selling gas cars in CA. That doesn't say anything regarding any future plans or technology they have.
yes, unloading the massive liability that was/is Numi was a good decision for both Toyota and GM.
If you can't see why Toyota chose not to expend engineering resources on a limited run (2600 in the next 3 years) compliance car (with zero to negative profit margins), I'm certainly not going to be able convince you, but perhaps they thought their R&D funds could be spent on something more productive and useful to the companies long term plans... But you go on thinking the worlds largest auto manufacturer has nothing being developed for future EV's, they are perfectly content to cede the entire EV market to Nissan, GM, Ford, BMW, et all, why that makes a perfect business argument (not).
FYI, the only reason to produce the RAV4 EV is to avoid fines ($5,000) for each car not produced, Toyota doesn't want to make these, they are forced to, to continue selling gas cars in CA. That doesn't say anything regarding any future plans or technology they have.
AndyH
Well-known member
It might have been a smart business move on GM's part as well, but they didn't get that option because while Toyota remained solvent, GM gave it up as part of their bankruptcy. :roll:SanDust said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/opinion/16herbert.html
Seems to me that Mitch was spot-on with his assessment...
AndyH
Well-known member
Would it have been so difficult to read the post directly above yours?TomT said:
Or is this off topic?
mitch672
Well-known member
Okay enough, back on topic.
First of all, to all of you who believe the PiP gets just 6 miles of EV, that's not true, the least I have seen has been 10 miles at 60MPH. With stop and go crawling traffic, I typically make the entire 15 mile commute in EV, some of that is regen.
3 out of every 4 PiPs are being sold in CA, so sure, HOV lane access is a big reason for PiP sales, but the Volt has a similar price (after rebates), so it will be between these 2, for everyone who needs a 1 car solution.
First of all, to all of you who believe the PiP gets just 6 miles of EV, that's not true, the least I have seen has been 10 miles at 60MPH. With stop and go crawling traffic, I typically make the entire 15 mile commute in EV, some of that is regen.
3 out of every 4 PiPs are being sold in CA, so sure, HOV lane access is a big reason for PiP sales, but the Volt has a similar price (after rebates), so it will be between these 2, for everyone who needs a 1 car solution.
DANandNAN
Well-known member
Ok, you’re right, the PiP is a marvel of technological innovation. I don’t know what I was thinking. Sure it’s EV range is only 6-10 miles, and then it goes into TYPICAL Prius hybrid mode, while other cars have better range, but hey, it’s still using the old tried and true Prius hybrid mode. How could anyone say that’s not new, innovative technology.
Please don’t go blaming the 6-10 mile range on the EPA, look at your own forum for owners numbers. There’s a poll on the PiP forum where owners report their estimated “EV” range. 85% of those polled report “EV” mileage of less than 13.4. 50% report 12.4 miles or less. What’s funnier still is that many folks are posting their best ever range, others are posting what they think their average is, and the kicker is the folks posting their blended “EV” range as EV only. Real world owners numbers from your own site that shows under ideal conditions, where you don’t punch the accelerator and the temp is just right and you sometimes include blended “EV” mode into the numbers then 85% of those respondents get less than 13.4 miles. That’s impressive?
Was Toyota surprised by the EPA testing procedures? No, they weren’t. They knew the testing would reveal the PiP’s shortcomings yet they still chose to do nothing. What could they have done? Well, they could have stuck a bigger battery in there that would have allowed the PiP to complete the acceleration test without starting the engine and it would have given better range than the 6-10 miles many owners report. Toyota stuck the little battery in there as a way getting into the EV market, but please don’t tell me that this was their best effort. When you say that, it’s like you’re not paying attention to the real world and what’s occurring. If you don’t know that the Volt is an EV for the first 40+ miles at highway speeds without any performance compromises then you’re proving my point.
I have no dog in the fight, I don’t care who wins, I just want the best vehicles for my family. I don’t care who I buy from as a long as it’s quality & safe. We’re already considering skipping the Leaf & buying the Toyota/Tesla RAV4 EV - we are not brand loyal to any brand. I’ve never owned the same model car twice (or 5 times like a certain fanboy I know) though I am partial to imports and BMW it seems. Individuals needs change. Society’s needs change. Technology changes. Innovators are out front. I was pulling for Honda & Toyota to put something better on the market. I thought they would take the ball and run with it. Instead Toyota “built” a compliance RAV4 so they can stay in California??? Think about the original Honda Insight. 70mpg! Yet, here we are in 2012 and a 52MPG Prius is something to brag about? True GM doesn’t get 52, but 45MPG isn’t bad from an American car company. But, I’m not here to defend GM. I’m not proud of the 45MPG, but it’s better than the alternative of being stranded in a RLBEV.
Speaking of the RLBEV Leaf & FFE, they are range limited folks. Plain and simple. Yes, everything is to a certain degree. But, when refueling your vehicle effectively doubles your transit time – you’re driving a range limited vehicle. When you’re on a 300 mile trip and you have to stop every 65+ miles to recharge for 50 minutes (at the probable detriment to your battery) you’re driving a range limited vehicle. Sure, you can talk about how you personally don’t do that, that you don’t drive that far. But, that’s because you can’t. The Leaf, FFE, and the shorter range Teslas are RLBEV. It’s fine, they aren’t ideal yet. Nothing is and the Leaf is still working great for most owners. I do find it noteworthy that the average Leaf owner only drives 27 miles per day according to one study, but maybe that explains why so many owners no longer see the vehicle as range limited. But, it is. It’s not ideal for every situation, and no car is, but don’t have the holier than thou attitude and call the Volt as gas polluter when we all know the kind of mileage that flatbed tow truck gets on it’s trip to drive out to pick up a turtled RLBEV. Then the fuel burned while loading and finally it’s drive back carrying said vehicle. Or the fuel Roadster, SUV, Volt, Prius and all the other vehicles folks own/lease/rent/borrow to supplement their RLBEV.
The Volt’s not perfect, I doubt any owner has ever claimed it was. The Volt’s CS mileage could be even better and there’s a lot of unused battery. GM put a cooling system on the Volt but limited the range/available battery and charger compared to the Leaf which has no battery cooling system yet uses way more battery, includes has DC charging now and will have a 6.6. Still, even if GM is a bit overcautious the Volt fits the bill well and if the Volt had the 6.6 charger (or even 20 more EV miles so we’d tie the Leaf & FFE) we’d buy a 2nd Volt over the Leaf or FFE.
40+ miles of EV range compared to 6-10 (unless you’re in a hurry) like the PiP. Then an on-board generator that gets 40-45-49MPG to take you on a trip compared to being turtled because you used the heat (!) like a RLBEV makes it a better all around vehicle. The PiP is a better vehicle if you will be driving a ton of miles on a daily basis and the better fuel mileage will come into play. The Leaf is a better vehicle if you can live with the compromises – and most people, not just people here, but people in general can.
Folks need to stop being fanboys for their brand or their technology and realize that none of these vehicles is ideal for everyone, and that some are better than others.
Please don’t go blaming the 6-10 mile range on the EPA, look at your own forum for owners numbers. There’s a poll on the PiP forum where owners report their estimated “EV” range. 85% of those polled report “EV” mileage of less than 13.4. 50% report 12.4 miles or less. What’s funnier still is that many folks are posting their best ever range, others are posting what they think their average is, and the kicker is the folks posting their blended “EV” range as EV only. Real world owners numbers from your own site that shows under ideal conditions, where you don’t punch the accelerator and the temp is just right and you sometimes include blended “EV” mode into the numbers then 85% of those respondents get less than 13.4 miles. That’s impressive?
Was Toyota surprised by the EPA testing procedures? No, they weren’t. They knew the testing would reveal the PiP’s shortcomings yet they still chose to do nothing. What could they have done? Well, they could have stuck a bigger battery in there that would have allowed the PiP to complete the acceleration test without starting the engine and it would have given better range than the 6-10 miles many owners report. Toyota stuck the little battery in there as a way getting into the EV market, but please don’t tell me that this was their best effort. When you say that, it’s like you’re not paying attention to the real world and what’s occurring. If you don’t know that the Volt is an EV for the first 40+ miles at highway speeds without any performance compromises then you’re proving my point.
I have no dog in the fight, I don’t care who wins, I just want the best vehicles for my family. I don’t care who I buy from as a long as it’s quality & safe. We’re already considering skipping the Leaf & buying the Toyota/Tesla RAV4 EV - we are not brand loyal to any brand. I’ve never owned the same model car twice (or 5 times like a certain fanboy I know) though I am partial to imports and BMW it seems. Individuals needs change. Society’s needs change. Technology changes. Innovators are out front. I was pulling for Honda & Toyota to put something better on the market. I thought they would take the ball and run with it. Instead Toyota “built” a compliance RAV4 so they can stay in California??? Think about the original Honda Insight. 70mpg! Yet, here we are in 2012 and a 52MPG Prius is something to brag about? True GM doesn’t get 52, but 45MPG isn’t bad from an American car company. But, I’m not here to defend GM. I’m not proud of the 45MPG, but it’s better than the alternative of being stranded in a RLBEV.
Speaking of the RLBEV Leaf & FFE, they are range limited folks. Plain and simple. Yes, everything is to a certain degree. But, when refueling your vehicle effectively doubles your transit time – you’re driving a range limited vehicle. When you’re on a 300 mile trip and you have to stop every 65+ miles to recharge for 50 minutes (at the probable detriment to your battery) you’re driving a range limited vehicle. Sure, you can talk about how you personally don’t do that, that you don’t drive that far. But, that’s because you can’t. The Leaf, FFE, and the shorter range Teslas are RLBEV. It’s fine, they aren’t ideal yet. Nothing is and the Leaf is still working great for most owners. I do find it noteworthy that the average Leaf owner only drives 27 miles per day according to one study, but maybe that explains why so many owners no longer see the vehicle as range limited. But, it is. It’s not ideal for every situation, and no car is, but don’t have the holier than thou attitude and call the Volt as gas polluter when we all know the kind of mileage that flatbed tow truck gets on it’s trip to drive out to pick up a turtled RLBEV. Then the fuel burned while loading and finally it’s drive back carrying said vehicle. Or the fuel Roadster, SUV, Volt, Prius and all the other vehicles folks own/lease/rent/borrow to supplement their RLBEV.
The Volt’s not perfect, I doubt any owner has ever claimed it was. The Volt’s CS mileage could be even better and there’s a lot of unused battery. GM put a cooling system on the Volt but limited the range/available battery and charger compared to the Leaf which has no battery cooling system yet uses way more battery, includes has DC charging now and will have a 6.6. Still, even if GM is a bit overcautious the Volt fits the bill well and if the Volt had the 6.6 charger (or even 20 more EV miles so we’d tie the Leaf & FFE) we’d buy a 2nd Volt over the Leaf or FFE.
40+ miles of EV range compared to 6-10 (unless you’re in a hurry) like the PiP. Then an on-board generator that gets 40-45-49MPG to take you on a trip compared to being turtled because you used the heat (!) like a RLBEV makes it a better all around vehicle. The PiP is a better vehicle if you will be driving a ton of miles on a daily basis and the better fuel mileage will come into play. The Leaf is a better vehicle if you can live with the compromises – and most people, not just people here, but people in general can.
Folks need to stop being fanboys for their brand or their technology and realize that none of these vehicles is ideal for everyone, and that some are better than others.
Actually his comments were nonsense because he was wrong on the facts. GM did not offload any crushing liability on to Tesla. I didn't bother going there because it's fairly apparent he is more or less making this up as he goes along. No reason to clutter things with facts. But my point, which is that his mental state is evidenced by the fact that, in the same sentence, he can say that GM and Toyota did EXACTLY THE SAME THING and then conclude that ONLY TOYOTA made a good business decision, remains perfectly valid.AndyH said:
This is such a yawner. Unsubstantiated claims at odds with the EPA tests are useless. If the PIP gets 15 miles of electric range then the Leaf has a range of 100 miles and the Volt has an electric range of 48 miles. Except they don't. :lol:mitch672 said:
I think it was the C&D tester who had the engine come on when coming up the ramp out of his parking garage when testing the PIP. Hills equal acceleration you know. The fact is that the TRW parallel hybrid technology used in the Prius has run its course. Leading technology at one point, it's now the ultimate tweener, too expensive on the one hand and too little MPG on the other.
I agree that the PIP will outsell the Leaf. Certainly this year. Toyota has a large base of Prius owners and many of those folks, through brand loyalty, will be inclined to buy another Prius. It's been a very reliable car. Plus for people living in places without access to a plug but who want an HOV sticker the PIP is an alternative whereas the Leaf is not.
Logic and reason getting your goat?mitch672 said:
ztanos
Well-known member
mitch672 said:
Yeah, but why you mad bro? :lol:
Well, the PiP would have worked perfectly for me. Small town errands are less than 10 mi RT and work is 8 mi RT. Out of town charging is practically non-existent so those trips (2 since the Leaf) are in the ICE. Nissan beat Toyota to the line and so that's what I bought. Some might say that my Leaf is being wasted with less than 5000 mi in 9 months. It's funny, I actually have to find reasons to drive it more. Each type of car is just a tool to get a certain job done. The PiP works great for those like myself who mostly drive short trips and don't have easy access to L2. The Volt works for 1-car family/driver who have a moderate commute. The Leaf works for multi-car family/driver with longer commute. None can easily pull a boat/camper or haul concrete. I don't worry about it, I just pick the best tool that I have for the job to be done. Today, 8 mi RT, sunny and 75 F, I chose the bicycle and the Leaf sits all alone.
Reddy
and the Leaf sits all alone. Reddy
AndyH
Well-known member
Am I missing something or are you? GM could only have made a business decision similar to Toyota's IF THEY REMAINED SOLVENT through the process - and they did not! It's apples and oranges. Maybe in a parallel universe where GM didn't end up in a government-supervised bankruptcy/bailout they decided to sell their portion of the NUMMI partnership. In THAT universe I'll agree with you 103.5% - they made a good business decision if they sold off a liability. But that didn't happen in THIS universe.SanDust said:
And because of that, my best suggestion is that Mitch is owed an apology.
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
-
-
-
Wrong approach to charging infrastructure
- Latest: marshallinwash
-
-
-