Why would anyone buy a nissan leaf right now???

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Just a FYI, but I'm heading to the dealer to pick up a new SV Plus next week. In my circumstance it should work well for me. On the subject of the main battery, I've done a fair amount of research and as far as cooling, the battery (from the smaller pack in 2011, to the 62kwh pack available now), is designed to rely on thermal conduction from the battery modules to the battery module case. Air flow around the case would be the passive cooling. The two halves of the battery pack housing around bolted together with a sealing gasket between, so there is no air flow from outside thru the case itself. I'll know next week on delivery (it's "in transit" for next weeks delivery to the dealer so I "put my name on it" yesterday) and later if Nissan has designed any means of ducting cooling air around the main pack when the vehicle is moving.
If anyone is interested, there is a very good youtube video by Weber Auto showing a full teardown and reassembly of a 2011 pack, even down to the Professor borrowing his wife's can opener to actually open up one of the Pack Modules. Its a pretty lengthy video but worth a watch if you're interested. There's also a video or two elsewhere on youtube where they show complete lineup of the Leaf's battery evolution from 2011 up the the 62kwh packs. All use the same design principles.
 
WetEV said:
SageBrush said:
fester said:
That the Leaf uses air cooling
That term is used loosely. There is no airflow inside the LEAF pack. Cooling is only via contact of the battery case with outside air.
Too bad, really. Air ventilation would be a considerable improvement. It is actually what Toyota does.

Keeping water out of the pack seems to be a good idea.

Could be done by routing vents from inside the cabin to the pack but that would require space between the cells which means a complete redesign which brings to mind? (off topic warning)

Anyone see the design of the liquid cooling in the Ariya?
 
In the UK Leaf group, one active mod-der lowered the cover beneath the pack using some spacers. Also he used a small flexible tube to bring air up from under the car to the top of the pack casing. I didn't see hard data, but he claimed it accelerated cooling when driving post heavy DC charging.


Separately, inventories of the Leaf continue to build in Chicago, now up to 17.
 
I sold a Bolt twice due to restrictions. Bought a RAV4 and I don’t like it. The Leaf looks like my only option to go EV again.
Hoping to find a ‘20 / ‘21 Plus for equal value: $30k. I have a foul weather / road trip Honda Element.
 
The financial incentives on a new LEAF make buying used around 30K somewhat a poor choice. If you're in the US and have more than $7500 of taxes paid in 2021, a brand new LEAF you buy between now and 31st December will bring back $7500 with your tax returns in April. On top of this you may have possible state rebates ($2000 in CA + $750 ). So in a nutshell if you have the tax base to cover this and ability to finance the new car, the net cost of it will be less than the suggested cost of a '20/'21...

Why not buy a brand new vehicle for less... In any case, I realize everyone's situation is different and one size does not fit all. Wishing you the best of luck with your purchase.
 
You have the added benefit of the 3 year warranty and roadside assistance. If Leather and propilot offer little value to you, go for a S+ (if you can find it). If you don't have 7500 in tax liability, ask the dealer about a short lease (1 month lease). That sends the $7500 to the dealer, and "usually" you benefit about 7K of it as there is some overhead of the short lease costs.

Chicago inventory back down to 10... fastest turn over of Leafs I have seen in a while.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
Chicago inventory back down to 10... fastest turn over of Leafs I have seen in a while.

I'm actually a little surprised by that since the IL credit is coming into effect mid 2022. I would have figured people would wait for that to kick in for the extra $4k
 
If you have access to the tax credit, the Leaf is one of the cheapest cars you can buy at the low end. Leases are also very attractive.

The IL credit may give the Leaf one last well timed boost here before Ariya appears and the tax credit runs out.
 
After a week of research, I bought a new 2022 Leaf instead of a Tesla Model 3. If you found this forum because you are pondering the same choice, here are my reasons. I hope this will be useful as you decide which is better for you, if only as list of things to consider. Apologies in advance if any of my facts are wrong, e.g., vertical trunk space, warranty details, etc. So far, I love my Leaf, no buyer's regrets, I literally hugged the car this morning when I went for Starbucks! :)

LEAF BENEFITS:
Reasonable sticker price despite the pandemic supply chain inflation.
Immediate availability at dealerships in many large cities.
$7500 tax rebate, unlike Tesla.
8-year/100k-mile battery warranty, same as Tesla's.
5-year/60k-mile EV system and powertrain warranty, better than Tesla's.
Less in-cabin road and wind noise than the Tesla 3 (search YouTube).
Nissan build quality versus Tesla, e.g., Tesla door handles.
Vertical trunk space better than Tesla's, possibly total volume too.
Charger plug at the front is more convenient than at the back.
Nissan dealerships are very common nationwide in the USA for any repairs or parts.
Regenerative braking might be more efficient than Tesla's, but this is uncertain.
Comes with floormats (saves $100, less annoying).
Comes with NEMA 14-50 electrical adapter (saves $35, less annoying).

LEAF NEGATIVES:
Batteries are not liquid-cooled like on the Tesla.
Obsolete CHAdeMO charger, not CCS or Tesla charger.
Dashboard is not as advanced or stylish as Tesla's.
Forward driving pedestrian warning noise is REALLY annoying; don't know about Tesla's.
Back seat leg room is OK for children, but cramped for adults; Tesla looks better.
Back seat headroom is not good for tall people; Tesla looks better.
Nissan Connect app works OK, but is not fast; cannot change charge scheduling.
No over-the-air software updates like on the Tesla, must go to dealer.
Back seats don't fold completely flat like on Tesla, only flat-ish.
No spare tire, like on Tesla (both have repair kits).
Storage space for small sundries around driver is OK, not great; Tesla looks better.
No option to limit max charge to 80% anymore, must adjust via charge scheduling.

CHAdeMO:
Rapid charging slightly damages batteries, especially in hot weather. If you will charge 99% of the time at home at night, then 240V charging with the J1772 port is better for battery life. If you need to drive cross-country, then the Tesla is better. The Leaf's CHAdeMO is obsolete and CHAdeMO charging stations will be very difficult to find in five years. If your electric utility offers a reduced rate for evenings, then 240V charging at home is cheaper than using commercial rapid charging stations.

BATTERY:
2014 and later Leaf batteries use a different chemistry (Nickel + Cobalt + Manganese) and internal design than the older batteries. Beware of older YouTube videos that warn about "the" Leaf battery.

Lack of liquid cooling is a big issue in hot climates. If you commute at highway speeds in hot climates, park in the sun all day at work, want to use rapid charging for cross-country trips, and habitually use maximum acceleration, then a Tesla will be better for battery life.

With the 8-year/100k-mile battery warranty on the Leaf, I personally am betting that the cost of a replacement battery in 8 years, if necessary, will be much lower than today. Battery technology is rapidly advancing and prices falling, but of course I have no idea what the future will bring.

For the Nissan battery warranty, remember than the Leaf records its operational details to local storage that a Nissan technician can retrieve. The battery warranty is voided if you 1) expose the Lear to ambient temperatures above 120F/49C for over 24 hours, 2) store the Leaf in temperatures below -13F/-25C for over seven days, 3) leave your vehicle for over 14 days where the battery reaches a zero or near zero state of charge, or 4) do not get a battery quality report every year by a Nissan-approved technician (I doubt that your own LeafSpy screenshots are good enough). This all comes straight from the Nissan warranty booklet.

BUILD QUALITY:
I can't back this up with hard data, but a major reason I chose the Leaf was build quality. Nissan has decades of experience building reliable cars worldwide (relative to other manufacturers, like Ford and GM) and a decade of experience with prior Leaf models. I have a 1998 Nissan Altima and it just keeps on running and running and running... Tesla is the new kid on the block. An internet search on "Tesla quality issues" returns results that are not terribly encouraging. Pre-2014 Leaf models certainly had battery problems, but what about the rest of the car? Nissan has a relatively good reputation for build quality. There is also the cost of replacement parts and service work; Tesla owners complain about these things online. Where will service work be done? There are 12 Tesla service centers in Texas, for example, and 78 Nissan dealerships. Many states have zero Tesla service centers right now.

PRICE NEGOTIATIONS:
If car price is not a major concern, then this whole discussion is probably irrelevant to you. You can simply trade up every few years to whatever catches your fancy despite the trade-in losses. For me, $10k is a lot of money when thinking about the total cost of ownership over 5+ years. (I'd rather have the $10k.)

When you negotiate the final price for a Leaf, talk about the "obsolete CHAdeMO charger" and "non-liquid cooled battery" with the sales manager to get a better price. Mention how the Nissan Ariya has abandoned CHAdeMO in favor of CCS and how the Ariya's dashboard looks so much nicer. Once the pandemic inflation has subsided and the Nissan Ariya is widely available, you should be able to negotiate pretty aggressively. Remember, no matter what you buy today, it won't be considered "nice" in a few years, there will always be something better to be jealous of -- better to be "Financially Independent Retire Early (FIRE)", so better to avoid getting suckered or seduced imho. The new Leaf is beautiful and its value/price ratio was better than the Tesla Model 3 for me. Best wishes on making your decision, I hope the above will be useful to you!
 
Nice overview. One correction: while Nissan makes noises about the annual battery test, not getting it has yet, AFAIK, to void a warranty.

Welcome to the forum.
 
For me, the extraordinary pricing of the SV+ that has been available ($11,500 discount and the $7500 tax credit) combined with the CHAdeMO being V2X enabled were the two prominent reasons I traded in my Gen 1 Leaf. Super pleased that is the best driving car that I've owned (as an old retiree :mrgreen:)
Having owned an '84 Corvette, '66 Plymouth Satellite 426 hemi, '68 Dodge Charger, definitely not the fastest, but definitely the safest and most comfortable.
 
The forward pedestrian noise may be annoying but it’s an essential safety feature. My daughter was injured in a parking lot by an EV in “stealth mode” so I don’t have much sympathy for people who want to disable this feature.

IMHO the main advantages of Tesla over the Leaf are all related to taking long distance road trips. As a daily commuter and local runabout the Leaf is as good or better than the M3 for tens of thousands less.
 
oxothuk said:
IMHO the main advantages of Tesla over the Leaf are all related to taking long distance road trips.
I think that is true if you view each EV as an appliance. The difference, for those able and inclined, is that the LEAF is only an appliance while the Tesla is so much more.

I'm reminded of the old partisan wars between MS Windoze and the Macintosh. A windoze box was mostly serviceable and an adequate tool for the majority of people, and in fact most of them could not see why someone would pay more for Macintosh. The ardent Mac user found the PC sometimes usable but hated it because it lacked beauty, elegance, coherence and the imbued personality of its creators.
 
In reality, the LEAF battery warranty limitations are not really limitations for normal use. It gets over 120 F in my climate periodically, but never for 24 hours continuous (this limitation is basically to protect Nissan from liability if an automobile paint shop bakes a car too long and too hot). It is not likely that a car would be kept in a location where the temperature did not get above -13 F during a 7-day period (any temperature above -13 would restart the 7-day clock). The annual battery test is free for the first two years and, at least at my dealer, is reasonable cost after that. I have the tests done just to avoid the possibility of warranty claim issues in the future.
 
SageBrush said:
oxothuk said:
IMHO the main advantages of Tesla over the Leaf are all related to taking long distance road trips.
I think that is true if you view each EV as an appliance. The difference, for those able and inclined, is that the LEAF is only an appliance while the Tesla is so much more.

I'm reminded of the old partisan wars between MS Windoze and the Macintosh. A windoze box was mostly serviceable and an adequate tool for the majority of people, and in fact most of them could not see why someone would pay more for Macintosh. The ardent Mac user found the PC sometimes usable but hated it because it lacked beauty, elegance, coherence and the imbued personality of its creators.

That's a good analogy. I can't say that having a car with games installed onto a control screen bigger than my college laptop, fart noise easter eggs, and snake jazz pedestrian noise options really much for me but they give the cars character. I'd love to have integrated dash cam stuff with the sentry mode but it's not a necessity. The hit and miss build quality is a draw back. (I don't know of any other OEM using faux wood pieces that appear to be from a hardware store on a $50k+ vehicle.)

I think for most people, unless you really want and like all the bells and whistles or the hip factor (like having an iPhone today vs a Motorola) it's not a particularly great value proposition upfront compared to a Leaf or some of the other EVs on the market IMO.
 
gcrouse said:
SageBrush said:
oxothuk said:
IMHO the main advantages of Tesla over the Leaf are all related to taking long distance road trips.
I think that is true if you view each EV as an appliance. The difference, for those able and inclined, is that the LEAF is only an appliance while the Tesla is so much more.

I'm reminded of the old partisan wars between MS Windoze and the Macintosh. A windoze box was mostly serviceable and an adequate tool for the majority of people, and in fact most of them could not see why someone would pay more for Macintosh. The ardent Mac user found the PC sometimes usable but hated it because it lacked beauty, elegance, coherence and the imbued personality of its creators.

That's a good analogy. I can't say that having a car with games installed onto a control screen bigger than my college laptop, fart noise easter eggs, and snake jazz pedestrian noise options really much for me but they give the cars character.
I don't care about any of that either (meaning I would not pay for it), but I have no problem paying for the Tesla EV experience. Driving my Tesla is awesome and I'm usually smiling; my LEAF driving is ... OK. Nothing to really complain about, but little to appreciate past the very important fact that it is EV.

If you ever get a chance to take a long trip in a Tesla, you might 'get it.' It goes far beyond battery capacity. As for short trips, the driving is sublime. The App is a jewel. The somewhat intangibles are miles apart. The LEAF is a Nissan Rogue with an electric drivetrain. Nice, for the bush leagues. And before you think the differences are all experience related, I encourage you to look up safety data. You have to look a little deeper than the report card stars
 
SageBrush said:
gcrouse said:
SageBrush said:
I think that is true if you view each EV as an appliance. The difference, for those able and inclined, is that the LEAF is only an appliance while the Tesla is so much more.

I'm reminded of the old partisan wars between MS Windoze and the Macintosh. A windoze box was mostly serviceable and an adequate tool for the majority of people, and in fact most of them could not see why someone would pay more for Macintosh. The ardent Mac user found the PC sometimes usable but hated it because it lacked beauty, elegance, coherence and the imbued personality of its creators.

That's a good analogy. I can't say that having a car with games installed onto a control screen bigger than my college laptop, fart noise easter eggs, and snake jazz pedestrian noise options really much for me but they give the cars character.
I don't care about any of that either (meaning I would not pay for it), but I have no problem paying for the Tesla EV experience. Driving my Tesla is awesome and I'm usually smiling; my LEAF driving is ... OK. Nothing to really complain about, but little to appreciate past the very important fact that it is EV.

If you ever get a chance to take a long trip in a Tesla, you might 'get it.' It goes far beyond battery capacity. As for short trips, the driving is sublime. The App is a jewel. The somewhat intangibles are miles apart. The LEAF is a Nissan Rogue with an electric drivetrain. Nice, for the bush leagues. And before you think the differences are all experience related, I encourage you to look up safety data. You have to look a little deeper than the report card stars

I'm not sure there's really anything to "get" beyond the general emotional attachment people get to a car they really like. The last two times i can recall being told that I wouldn't "get it" with a car was with someone and BMW and someone with a Jeep. In the past that phrase has generally been indicative of "brand as part of a lifestyle" thinking. There's certainly nothing wrong with it since it's pretty well ingrained into American culture at least.

The last two vehicles i really liked that much were my 1976 Ford LTD which was still probably among the smoothest riding and enjoyable cars I've ever driven. Other than having the fuel economy of an oil field fire and turning radius of a Best Western I loved the car. The other was my '00 Explorer i snagged for $2k at state auction in 2011. I thought it was a far better adventure vehicle than the Jeep Patriot that replaced it eventually.

Despite genuinely liking those vehicles more than my Leaf - objectively speaking, my Leaf is the best car I've owned overall.

I'd be curious to see your take after driving a Lucid Air or the BMW i4 when that comes out since the Lucid Air would really be the closest competition to the Model S/Tesla experience and the i4 is probably going to be a strong Model 3/S competitor and would generally be considered price point competitors.

Tesla does get all 5 stars in every NHTSA category for every model they make with the recommended safety tech being available or standard for each model - but the Leaf and Bolt aren't too shabby in their own right with different years getting 4/5 stars overall.

IMO, there's a bit too much of taking Musk's marketing pitches at face value with safety and other items. There was a good fact check when some of his tweets came out in 2018. https://phys.org/news/2018-05-fact-tesla-safety.html - although to be fair since then the Model Y got an IIHS top safety pick.

I think at the end of the day it comes down to how much you want to spend on a vehicular experience. For me, work is a 2 mile drive and the farthest I might want to routinely go works out to about 70 miles. Generally anything that's a long trip these days i prefer to take Amtrak, fly, or bus (in that order).

Personally I'm hoping for a small 4wd EV SUV to hit the market in the sub $30k range by 2026.
 
gcrouse said:
The last two times i can recall being told that I wouldn't "get it" with a car was with someone and BMW and someone with a Jeep. In the past that phrase has generally been indicative of "brand as part of a lifestyle" thinking.
Before Tesla we owned a Subaru Impreza, Mitsubishi Mirage, Honda Civic, Toyota hybrids and plug-in and LEAF. Do I match your stereotype ? :lol:

I have ZERO interest in LUCID, and even less in BMW
 
I'd drive a Model 3 just to try to understand the Tesla Fanboi/Fangurl phenomenon, but I can't afford to become one, so I'll just keep happily driving my refrigerator and spending almost zero time having it repaired or serviced.

The closest I came to being a FAN was growing up with pre-'70 Volvos and Suzuki motorcycles. I just grew away from the Volvos (don't confused "long-lived" with "never needs repair"), and A Suzuki 650L that I bought on Ebay just a few years ago that managed to dump gasoline on my garage floor TWICE was pretty much the last nail in the coffin for ICE motorcycles of any brand, for me. (A ZEV5000LA and a Zero SR almost did the same for electric motorcycles.)
 
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