Increase from 3.3kW to 6.6 kW sooner rather than later

AeroVironment's wall box for the Leaf operates at 240V 15A to 40A, and thus can supply 3.3kW to 6.6kW of power. Yet the onboard charger in the first Leafs will only accept the bare minimum of 3.3kW.

I understand that eventually Nissan intends to upgrade the charger to accept the full 6.6kW, but there has been no indication when that change will take place, nor a clarification of an "upgrade path" (and cost) for the early adopters.

I would strongly suggest that Nissan include a 6.6kW charger in the Leaf sooner rather than later. It only makes sense, given the wall box's capabilities. Indeed, a 3.3kW charger is a step backwards from those used with the EV1, RAV4-EV, Honda EV, Th!nk, Mini E, Tesla, etc.

Surely the "beefier" components wouldn't cost that much more. Heck... I would even be willing to pay a bit extra for a 6.6kW charger in my Leaf. At least consider making it an option!

If the AV EVSE is installed with a 20-amp dual breaker, it will be "configured" to only offer "up to 15 (or 16) amps" (80% of the breaker rating) to the vehicle.

Installing with a 40-amp dual breaker will allow the EVSE to be "6.6kW-ready", probably set to offer up to 32 amps to the car.

For me this 3.3 KW charger will probably tip the scale in favor of lease over buy ...

I wonder, will all the "public" 240v charging (EVSE) stations being installed (like the 1000 or so in San Diego) be 32-amp capable ... or even more?

evnow said:

For me this 3.3 KW charger will probably tip the scale in favor of lease over buy ...

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For me it's that and about a hundred other things that will probably have been improved three years from now. (Remember we always have the option to buy the car even though we leased them, although it may wind up costing us more in total than it would have had we bought outright in the first place... depending the final numbers they announce)

You gents have me thinking more about charge rates. I still expect that 98% of my use will only require the 120V charge input. I still want to dig more to see what's already 'in the wild' and what owners think.

In the mean time, here are a couple of references as a start:

1995 Solectria Force (Geo Prizm sedan): 3KW charger, NiMh pack, 84 miles range (LA4/UDDS), 9 hour charge

1995 Solectria S10: 3KW charger, Lead-Acid pack, 55 mile range (LA4/UDDS), 11 hour charge

1998 Toyota RAV4 EV: 4.4KW charger, NiMH pack, 94 mile range (LA4/UDDS), 6 3/4 hour charge

1998 Ford Ranger EV: 4KW charger, Lead-acid pack, 65 mile range (LA4/UDDS), 9 hour charge

1999 GM EV1: 6.6KW charger, NiMh pack, 140 mile range (LA4/UDDS), 7 hour charge

1999 Ford Ranger EV: 5KW charger, NiMH pack, 82 miles range (LA4/UDDS), 8+ hour charge

The NiMh vehicles with 4KW or larger chargers had decent charge times in spite of the extra energy NiMh packs require to cool the pack during charging. The lithium pack in the Leaf doesn't require the climate control load so can use 'all' of the energy the charge system pushes its way.

Andy

With a portable 240v 15/30-amp EVSE (3.3/6.6kW), a "heavy" extension cord, and some socket adapters, I would be able to get a one-hour (or 2-hr at 3.3kW) "quarter-tank" charge ... almost "anywhere".

I like that capability.

garygid said:

With a portable 240v 15/30-amp EVSE (3.3/6.6kW), a "heavy" extension cord, and some socket adapters, I would be able to get a one-hour (or 2-hr at 3.3kW) "quarter-tank" charge ... almost "anywhere".

I like that capability.

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My current EV "burns fuel" at about 250wH/mile. My charger is 30 amp at 240vac for 7200 watt. When people ask me how long it takes to charge the car I tell them 30 miles per hour. Its not quite that much, but it is easier for people to grasp 30 miles per hour than telling them 3-4 hours for charging a depleted pack.

Assuming the leaf also burns at 250 wH/mile (larger car than mine) then the 3.3 kW charger will charge at 13.2 miles/hour and the 6.6 will charge 26.4 miles / hour.

Miles per hour is not only easier to grasp, but if you only drive 15 miles you know how long to fill up, and if you drive 50 miles and only have an hour to charge at some location you know how much more you should have when you get back in the car.

palmermd said:

Assuming the leaf also burns at 250 wH/mile (larger car than mine) then the 3.3 kW charger will charge at 13.2 miles/hour and the 6.6 will charge 26.4 miles / hour.

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Yes, a good way to look at it.

My normal commute will take 1 hour charging @ 3.3KW :lol:

A 3.3kw charger is behind the times for an EV with a 24kwh pack and even more so for a launch like the Leaf. This will be very limiting for many and was most likely a cost cutting issue. I really hope Nissan abandons this pound foolish idea and changes the charger, even if the car price goes up slightly. I can live with 6.6 but 3.3 is going to be limiting too often.

EVDRIVER said:

This will be very limiting for many

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As close as it gets to a show stopper for me.

and was most likely a cost cutting issue. I really hope Nissan abandons this pound foolish idea and changes the charger, even if the car price goes up slightly. I can live with 6.6 but 3.3 is going to be limiting too often.

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Giving the benefit of doubt, I'm all but convinced that this was simply a Euro/US problem. The 3.3 would work from standard Euro outlets. And here in America, we always want more.

darelldd said:

EVDRIVER said:

This will be very limiting for many

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As close as it gets to a show stopper for me.

and was most likely a cost cutting issue. I really hope Nissan abandons this pound foolish idea and changes the charger, even if the car price goes up slightly. I can live with 6.6 but 3.3 is going to be limiting too often.

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Giving the benefit of doubt, I'm all but convinced that this was simply a Euro/US problem. The 3.3 would work from standard Euro outlets. And here in America, we always want more.

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This is not a Euro-spec car. All cars have different specs, components and engines for various markets, there is even more reason to have 6.6 in Europe as 240 is standard and the euro ev I owned had a switch for low power charging. This is not about outlets. It's not about more, it's actually a sweet spot and very practical, more is 12kw or the level 3.

EVDRIVER said:

A 3.3kw charger is behind the times for an EV with a 24kwh pack and even more so for a launch like the Leaf. This will be very limiting for many and was most likely a cost cutting issue.

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Seriously, how much more would 6.6kw cost over 3.3 ?

I guess, they just thought 8 hrs is ok - that is overnight. May be they thought for most people it wouldn't matter.

evnow said:

EVDRIVER said:

A 3.3kw charger is behind the times for an EV with a 24kwh pack and even more so for a launch like the Leaf. This will be very limiting for many and was most likely a cost cutting issue.

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Seriously, how much more would 6.6kw cost over 3.3 ?

I guess, they just thought 8 hrs is ok - that is overnight. May be they thought for most people it wouldn't matter.

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Although it is not very expensive, the marginal cost is greater over other components, they should just add the additional cost but it is subject to the auto margin formula which makes it expensive to the consumer. Half the charging time is a huge factor for consumer acceptance so I would put it a a high-value feature.

If Nissan doesn't do it, it leaves an opening for third party companies to step in. They are leaving "money on table", by ignoring this

EVDRIVER said:

Although it is not very expensive, the marginal cost is greater over other components, they should just add the additional cost but it is subject to the auto margin formula which makes it expensive to the consumer. Half the charging time is a huge factor for consumer acceptance so I would put it a a high-value feature.

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I guess if one looks at the 'problem' from an ICE-car perspective they're likely to think as you appear to think. And you're certainly welcome to your opinions. But I frankly think your view is way off the mark.

You suggest that 'half the charging time' is a 'huge' factor - and that the consumer should pay for this increased capability to cement their acceptance. Unfortunately, the real-world driver statistics for the US market prove your assertions false and seem to suggest that Nissan has it right even for this initial model and it's 3.3K charger. Sorry - my money is with Nissan on this one. I have absolutely no need for Level 2 charging - at all - and I'll be making 85 mile drives in the car.

Sorry...that dog still don't hunt...

To counteract some of the grousing...Isn't there official Nissan ink suggesting that they're ALREADY planning not only increasing Level 2 charge rate to 6.6KW but possibly even upping pack size for a 200 mile range? Please - remind me what the fight is for again? :lol:

AndyH said:

Please - remind me what the fight is for again? :lol:

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The 6.6kwh is not in 1st gen, even though it was supposed to be in according to earlier docs.

It will be really exciting (for EV-nerds like myself) to get the real production-release details!

What's this about 200 mile range? I haven't seen that anywhere.

This would all be good stuff for Leaf 2.0. It would be great if there was an upgrade path, although traditionally the upgrade path for cars is to buy a new one.

LTLFTcomposite said:

What's this about 200 mile range? I haven't seen that anywhere.

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Some articles appeared a few months ago stating that "Nissan Motor Co. is developing a lithium ion battery for electric vehicles that can store electricity at double the current capacity." (Electric Vehicle News, Green Car Congress).

Despite the use of "double" in the reports, 200 miles is an exaggeration. Toward the end, the reports clarify that the improved range is projected to be "300 kilometers (186 miles) on a single charge."

Hey...! Still sounds good to me!