Pipcecil
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Mon May 21, 2012 6:17 am

Another interesting arguement is technically, the whole standard war is being hypocritical by the government.

The government has given grants to ECOtality plus other companies Like Aerovironment to supply Level 3 DC fast chargers in the form of CHAdeMO. Then, governemnt supported (through stock) GM is trying to push another standard. Isn't this all a waste of taxpayers money? Why throw money at CHAdeMO for deployment only to have a stake in the company fighting it? Or is that a way to be in a win-win situation.

CHAdeMO was first in the USA and their deployment was first by government backed money. Techncially the US government has more support of CHAdeMO than the SAE standard. I see that any support that GM has for the SAE standard or fighting against the CHAdeMO standard is a waste of government spending. Fiscal responsibility, at this point, would be to support the infrastructure you, as the taxpayers, have paid money for.
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DANandNAN
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Mon May 21, 2012 9:11 am

GaslessInSeattle wrote:I think you are dead wrong, the west coast is already going CHAdeMO full steam and is investing millions in the West Coast Green Highway http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/. Sure the charging stations can be swapped out later but the key is that it's happening now and the SAE is too late for us not to move forward. If all the EV manufacturers were being smart they would make the port plug style easy to swap out, go with CHAdeMO for now and leave it up to the customer to have it swapped out later if the need arises, it's of little consequence that it takes up more room. This way there would be a clear path to getting quick charging out there at this very critical time for the EV market. Producing a car with no Quick Charging port capacity will leave buyers of that car left out in the cold in the very near future, no matter what standard wins out, and slow the adoption of quick charging overall. The Northwest will have the first QC network and I think it's going to be come very evident just how useful, actually crucial quick charging is to the mass adoption of EV's very soon. I drove 160 miles in the Leaf yesterday within just a few hours, all because of 1 quick charger within driving distance of my house, it was very nice and the parking space was free for another car in a matter of minutes compared to the hours it would have taken on an L2! I'd trade virtually all the public level 2 chargers in the area for a handful of well spaced QC's.
You would be ALONE in that sentement - ask Tony Williams how hard it is to get people to pay for and make money with DC stations.

This is only a critical time because there is no other option for RLBEV.

It's funny. Imagine if the Volt's on-board generator could only charge while stopped, and you had to remain stopped for 50 minutes. Then you could drive 40 miles but then you had to stop again for 50 minutes. That's nuts, right? But, that's what you're advocating. Sure, the Leaf can go 65 miles but you're stopping while the Volt cruises on by.

Anyway, I did like what you said about swapping out the ports and internals on the Leaf, and hopefully Nissan or the aftermarket will have a solution for the 10k Leaf's out there.
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Mon May 21, 2012 9:22 am

GaslessInSeattle wrote:gesture of goodwill? It's the SAE that dragged it's heals for years on this. there's no mistaking it, it's the SAE that has waited so long to create a "standard" that Nissan had to move forward with their own. As mentioned, we are weeks away from people getting their hands on the first QC network in the US. CHAdeMO is here now for us all to begin demonstrating the true suitability of EV's for the masses, even if a new standard gets adopted, Nissan has succeeded in outmaneuvering the SAE's heel dragging and pressured them to move forward faster and we will all benefit from that. Carlos Ghosn is a brilliant man!
Yes, they could call it a gesture of goodwill. Nissan is not a superpower in the industry; they have done great things with EV but they aren't big enough to set the standard as we're seeing now. The standard was set by 8 major manufacturers. Nissan would be wise to get on-board now, rather than continuing this futile struggle against the bigs.

The true suitability? Really? Like I said, ask Tony Williams about the DC station business model. DC is not being used and almost no one wants to pay for it. They'd rather take their ICE. Look at the poll here for proof. How suitable is it when you drive 65-70 miles then stop for 50 minutes before going another 65-70 miles only to stop for another 50? DC fast charging makes way more sense in a car with actual range. When your travel time is effectively doubled because of refueling it's not going to be deemed suitable by the masses.
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Mon May 21, 2012 9:27 am

Pipcecil wrote:Another interesting arguement is technically, the whole standard war is being hypocritical by the government.

The government has given grants to ECOtality plus other companies Like Aerovironment to supply Level 3 DC fast chargers in the form of CHAdeMO. Then, governemnt supported (through stock) GM is trying to push another standard. Isn't this all a waste of taxpayers money? Why throw money at CHAdeMO for deployment only to have a stake in the company fighting it? Or is that a way to be in a win-win situation.

CHAdeMO was first in the USA and their deployment was first by government backed money. Techncially the US government has more support of CHAdeMO than the SAE standard. I see that any support that GM has for the SAE standard or fighting against the CHAdeMO standard is a waste of government spending. Fiscal responsibility, at this point, would be to support the infrastructure you, as the taxpayers, have paid money for.
The solution to stopping more government waste is to just continue doing what they're doing? To tell 8 major manufacturers from two different continents that the U.S. doesn't care what the standard is. So that's the plan? The U.S. will pick CHAdeMO because they've spent some money? I find it amazing that the haters who call GM Government Motors think that the government will chose Nissan over a company they hold stock in and 7 other majors? I'm not talking about you, Pipcecil, I have no idea whether you've called GM that.

The money spent on CHAdeMO was a waste, but EVSE manufacturers have already said they're ready, willing and able to convert them to SAE Combo so the solution is to go with the standard. Nissan should take that advice.
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garygid
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Mon May 21, 2012 9:50 am

I suspect that GM wants to keep EVs limited in range, so that it is
just a larger-neighborhood or limited-commuter vehicle.
Then, many folks will still feel the "need"
for another (longer-range) vehicle.

They (and "Oil") want to continue making gas-eaters, because
"they" make a lot more on the gas (razor blades, ink-jet modules, toner)
than they do on the car (the shaver "handle/holder", the printer), I suspect.

If EVs get "out of the box" (Neighborhood) with QC fueling stations
available "everywhere", there will no longer be a perceived need for
each family to have "that 2nd" (long-range gas-burning) car.

IMO, the "Standards" thing is NOT about 1 socket or 2,
it is about slowing the "EV tide".

After all, Europe is not adopting the same plug as the USA,
but planning on using an incompatible "MerkenStein" plug.

The plug shape is not the big issue, but the incompatible
control-communication IS a significant "glitch".
Just enough to slow the whole industry for 10 years, or so.
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Mon May 21, 2012 1:42 pm

garygid wrote: If EVs get "out of the box" (Neighborhood) with QC fueling stations
available "everywhere", there will no longer be a perceived need for
each family to have "that 2nd" (long-range gas-burning) car.
Can you blame GM for this attitude?.. they and the dealers have a lot of infrastructure dedicated to gas engines, and GM does not even own one single battery factory. It is your stock value that they are protecting.

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davewill
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Mon May 21, 2012 1:48 pm

Herm wrote:Can you blame GM for this attitude?.. they and the dealers have a lot of infrastructure dedicated to gas engines, and GM does not even own one single battery factory. It is your stock value that they are protecting.
Hell, yes.
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Mon May 21, 2012 2:13 pm

Pipcecil wrote:Another interesting arguement is technically, the whole standard war is being hypocritical by the government.

The government has given grants to ECOtality plus other companies Like Aerovironment to supply Level 3 DC fast chargers in the form of CHAdeMO. Then, governemnt supported (through stock) GM is trying to push another standard. Isn't this all a waste of taxpayers money? Why throw money at CHAdeMO for deployment only to have a stake in the company fighting it? Or is that a way to be in a win-win situation.

CHAdeMO was first in the USA and their deployment was first by government backed money. Techncially the US government has more support of CHAdeMO than the SAE standard. I see that any support that GM has for the SAE standard or fighting against the CHAdeMO standard is a waste of government spending. Fiscal responsibility, at this point, would be to support the infrastructure you, as the taxpayers, have paid money for.
The only wasted money I see is the bailout of GM. But that is another thread. One more reason I will not buy another GM vehicle or recommend one ever.
Otherwise get off your backside GM and produce a vehicle with an SAE port already.
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Mon May 21, 2012 4:27 pm

garygid wrote: If EVs get "out of the box" (Neighborhood) with QC fueling stations
available "everywhere", there will no longer be a perceived need for
each family to have "that 2nd" (long-range gas-burning) car.
DC charging stations are a Band-Aid for the problem. The problem is the batteries. A member named gasslessinseattle (?) posted a map of projected DC QC stations in another thread. The map showed how ridiculous this can get - it had 20+ stations only a few miles apart. Yet, how are sales? (in case you don't know Nissan only sold 350 Leaf's last month)

Can you imagine owning an ICE and stopping to refuel every 65-75 miles for 50 minutes? ICE owners can't and that's why the Leaf's sales are down. We need batteries to get more efficient with a distance comparable to an ICE.

The batteries are EV's biggest issue, not that mean GM that sells gasoline vehicles (BTW, so does everyone) and doesn't even own it's own battery plant.
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GaslessInSeattle
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Re: Advantage NISSAN: Offer both SAE/GM Frankenplug and Chad

Mon May 21, 2012 4:51 pm

you've got to be kidding right? there are gas stations across the street from one another. What we need is to get the DC charging network way ahead of the deployment of the cars and we are just beginning to see that. eventually, when the number of EV's builds, we will need multiple stations to cover the number of users, as not everyone is going to be charging at the same intervals. Oh and don't forget, that every EV owner will have a convenient yet slower charging station at home for overnight use, something not practical for gas cars and with today's batteries, that more than covers the average 30 miles a day that people drive. The DC charging network is for the occasion that people want to go further.

DANandNAN wrote:
garygid wrote: If EVs get "out of the box" (Neighborhood) with QC fueling stations
available "everywhere", there will no longer be a perceived need for
each family to have "that 2nd" (long-range gas-burning) car.
DC charging stations are a Band-Aid for the problem. The problem is the batteries. A member named gasslessinseattle (?) posted a map of projected DC QC stations in another thread. The map showed how ridiculous this can get - it had 20+ stations only a few miles apart. Yet, how are sales? (in case you don't know Nissan only sold 350 Leaf's last month)

Can you imagine owning an ICE and stopping to refuel every 65-75 miles for 50 minutes? ICE owners can't and that's why the Leaf's sales are down. We need batteries to get more efficient with a distance comparable to an ICE.

The batteries are EV's biggest issue, not that mean GM that sells gasoline vehicles (BTW, so does everyone) and doesn't even own it's own battery plant.
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