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Re: Gov. Brown signs bills to block Trump's offshore oil drilling plan

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:42 pm
by downeykp
Having grown up in San Jose in the 50s and 60s. the air there has always been influenced by the predominant ocean breezes. There were times in the 80s-2000s where Loma Prieta and Uminum could not be seen. But that was the exception. The prevailing winds would clear stuff out eventually. People back east do not understand the area or California.

Re: Gov. Brown signs bills to block Trump's offshore oil drilling plan

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:02 pm
by GRA
downeykp wrote:Having grown up in San Jose in the 50s and 60s. the air there has always been influenced by the predominant ocean breezes. There were times in the 80s-2000s where Loma Prieta and Uminum could not be seen. But that was the exception. The prevailing winds would clear stuff out eventually. People back east do not understand the area or California.
Yeah, I've always benefitted from living in the East Bay, usually in one of the shoreline communities (not east of the hills), so there was usually a more or less straight shot through the gate for the prevailing NWerlies. But I can still remember the brown layer when the breezes weren't blowing, and we still get it sometimes on those Spare the Air days. I'm usually somewhat conflicted: If I'm going somewhere I want to ride my bike so as not to contribute to the problem, but then I know I'll be breathing harder and inhaling more crap (makes me more appreciative of ZEVs when I get behind one). Whenever possible I just stay at home.

Re: Gov. Brown signs bills to block Trump's offshore oil drilling plan

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:20 pm
by LeftieBiker
I'm usually somewhat conflicted: If I'm going somewhere I want to ride my bike so as not to contribute to the problem, but then I know I'll be breathing harder and inhaling more crap (makes me more appreciative of ZEVs when I get behind one). Whenever possible I just stay at home.
An electric assist bicycle would be great for that.

Re: Gov. Brown signs bills to block Trump's offshore oil drilling plan

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:50 am
by GetOffYourGas
GRA wrote: The sheer number of humans on the planet, along with their high densities, is the underlying cause of all major human-based environmental impacts.
Disagree. It's a contributing factor, combined with our high-consumption way of life. But it is not the cause.
GRA wrote:It may be possible to eliminate the deleterious environmental effects of large numbers of humans at high density, but it will always be easier to do so if the numbers and densities are smaller. Since we don't yet have the ability to eliminate those effects, our only other option is to reduce the size of the problems by reducing the number of people contributing to them.

As to eliminating the human race entirely from the earth, there are more than a few scientists who've pointed out that our survival as a species isn't required; it's our egos that make us think our continuation is important. In short, it matters to us, but the earth would get along just fine without us, as it did for the several billion years before we arrived.
Let's just say that you and I have very different views on our purpose here. We don't exist to support the earth. The earth exists to support us.

Of course the earth could and would go on without us. In fact, I said as much in my post. But that's not the point. We should care about the earth's ability to support us. That's the whole point - to allow the earth to continue to support human life.

Re: Gov. Brown signs bills to block Trump's offshore oil drilling plan

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:55 am
by LeftieBiker
Let's just say that you and I have very different views on our purpose here. We don't exist to support the earth. The earth exists to support us.
That's a religious belief, with all the baggage that entails. Once you twist reality 180 degrees you can't possibly predict the possible unintended effects of actions based on those beliefs.

Re: Gov. Brown signs bills to block Trump's offshore oil drilling plan

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:16 am
by GetOffYourGas
LeftieBiker wrote:
Let's just say that you and I have very different views on our purpose here. We don't exist to support the earth. The earth exists to support us.
That's a religious belief, with all the baggage that entails. Once you twist reality 180 degrees you can't possibly predict the possible unintended effects of actions based on those beliefs.
Sure it's a religious belief. But so is scientism (the belief that science itself is the only source of truth). The difference is that the philosophy of scientism is self-refuting. By contrast, the above view is the best explanation for all of our observations through science, reason, and history. No twisting of reality, simply a holistic view which incorporates all aspects of the human experience.

Re: Gov. Brown signs bills to block Trump's offshore oil drilling plan

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:45 am
by LeftieBiker
You mean "conflates human experience with the totality of reality." "Scientism," as you call it, comes closer to incorporating human experience without substituting it for things like mathematical consistency.

Re: Gov. Brown signs bills to block Trump's offshore oil drilling plan

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:16 am
by GetOffYourGas
Quite the contrary. It is the belief that there is something more than mere human experience. But that all of human experience must be considered, and not just those parts limited to scientific evaluation or mathematical modelling.

And I've taken this thread far off topic. I apologize, I was just enjoying the conversation.

Re: Gov. Brown signs bills to block Trump's offshore oil drilling plan

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:27 am
by SageBrush
GetOffYourGas wrote:[By contrast, the above view is the best explanation for all of our observations through science, reason, and history. No twisting of reality, simply a holistic view which incorporates all aspects of the human experience.
**cough**

Let's just agree that if humanity wants to continue to exist, let alone flourish, it better stop shitting in its water supply, wiping out its food supply, and poisoning the air it breathes.

What Earth "should" do for humanity is nonsensical.

Re: Gov. Brown signs bills to block Trump's offshore oil drilling plan

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:13 am
by GetOffYourGas
SageBrush wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:[By contrast, the above view is the best explanation for all of our observations through science, reason, and history. No twisting of reality, simply a holistic view which incorporates all aspects of the human experience.
Let's just agree that if humanity wants to continue to exist, let alone flourish, it better stop shitting in its water supply, wiping out its food supply, and poisoning the air it breathes.
Agreed. And to bring this back on topic, Brown's bill is a good step in that direction. Even if it is largely symbolic, since Californians continue to consume large amounts of oil.