madbrain
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:53 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 023874
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:59 am

cwerdna wrote: FWIW, for me, under My Usage > My Rates, they list cost estimates if I were to stay w/my current schedule or switch to 3 other choices: Time-of-Use + SmartRate™ (E6-Smart), Time-of-Use (E6), or Standard + SmartRate™ (E1-Smart). They also can give me a breakdown month by month about estimates costs for E1 vs. one of the others.
I guess they can do this because you have a SmartMeter and it must be recording the data for all the different time periods of all the different schedules.
In my case, "My usage" only shows my gas usage, nothing electric at all showing there. So I have no idea if switching to E-9 would be good or bad.
It claims I'll save w/all of them but the most with Time-of-Use + SmartRate™ (E6-Smart). I'll probably switch to that once we enter their "winter" period so I don't get hit by crazy high bills in "summer".
When you are on solar (net metering) you are on an annual rate schedule, I am not sure it's possible to change mid-year.
In comparison, these rates are cheap and simple: http://www.douglaspud.org/Service/2012R ... 12012.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (VERY cheap) and https://www.seattle.gov/light/accounts/ ... 24.htm#rsc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I don't anything about how their net metering works for solar.
With those kinds of rates, I don't think solar makes financial sense.

gaswalla
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:07 pm
Delivery Date: 24 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 5012
Location: Coastal San Diego

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:20 am

Stukid wrote:
adric22 wrote:The Volt and Leaf are both a steal if you lease them. I really don't understand why GM and Nissan haven't caught onto this and started heavily advertising the lease rate. I've surprised a lot of people when I tell them that I pay less per month on my lease than they do for gasoline. So it is almost like I get a free car, the way I see it. Several people I know who drive large trucks to work (for no logical reason) actually pay a LOT more in gas per month than I do for my whole car + electricity to power it. I've told those people they could keep their big truck and lease a Leaf or Volt to drive to work and actually save money (assuming their insurance rates aren't too high) as long as they'd be willing to drive the EV to work. But they enjoy driving the big truck so much that they aren't willing to give it up as a daily driver.
The guy who likes to drive his huge F-350 with dual rear wheels as a commuter car is the same guy who comes barreling up behind me, flashes his lights, passes me only for me to come up behind him at the next light. That guy, he will never drive a Leaf! Rightfully so, he can drive what he wants, but he will also pay out the wazoo to keep it fueled.
So think about it, that guy pays a boatload for his truck, needs a paycheck to fill the tank, maintenance costs are tremendous, and you can't even park it without either taking up 2 spots or having the back end stick way out. (especially when that guy leaves his trailer hitch receiver on)
For every Leaf (Prius, Volt etc) owner, that guy still out numbers us by a huge margin. Or am I wrong?
sad, but true. There's really no reason to change for most of these folks until gas prices get up to European levels..

User avatar
mwalsh
Posts: 9754
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 05 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0213
Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:24 am

Stukid wrote:
The guy who likes to drive his huge F-350 with dual rear wheels as a commuter car is the same guy who comes barreling up behind me, flashes his lights, passes me only for me to come up behind him at the next light. That guy, he will never drive a Leaf! Rightfully so, he can drive what he wants, but he will also pay out the wazoo to keep it fueled.
So think about it, that guy pays a boatload for his truck, needs a paycheck to fill the tank, maintenance costs are tremendous, and you can't even park it without either taking up 2 spots or having the back end stick way out. (especially when that guy leaves his trailer hitch receiver on)
For every Leaf (Prius, Volt etc) owner, that guy still out numbers us by a huge margin. Or am I wrong?

Don't worry, the laws of natural selection are in our favor. His type will die out more quickly than we will.
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 87,000 miles
2015 pack on 12/30/15
Tinted windows
Bosch AGM 12v
Ecopia 422+ tires
L1 EVSE upgrade
FIAMM horns
Superbright LED lighting
2013 sun visors
LED shifter
Heated seats
GT-R map lamp lenses
Altima illuminated door switches

srl99
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:04 am
Delivery Date: 16 Aug 2012

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:35 am

Who killed the electric car? PG&E with help from the CPUC. SMUD (Sacramento) where the state capitol is, and presumably the bulk of state staff lives, charges 10c up to 700 kWH then 17c/kWH on the regular R-1 rate plan. PG&E with consent from their "regulator" cronies charges some of the highest rates in the country. PG&E commerical rates aren't bad, but the residential rates are nearly criminal.

As the CPUC is unable to regulate PG&E they need to open the electricity market and let the market regulate itself. Then we can save even more money by eliminating the inept CPUC staff.

All of these various rate plans, and rooftop solar (for purely economic reasons) is just a way of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic to try to escape 34c/kWH residential electric rates! Where else does the cost from a low quantity factory (generator) compare favorably with a large scale "regulated" monopoly?

thankyouOB
Posts: 3583
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:14 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 1442
Location: Coastal LA

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:36 am

you guys should rebel on the PG&E rates.
LADWP TOU residential per kWh
----------------- June to September /// October to May
1-5pm ------------ .22 /// .12.5
--
10am-1pm
&
--------- .14 /// .12.5
5pm-8pm
------
8pm-10am ---------- .10.6 /// .11

with .02.5 off as an electric car discount for every kwh used during the overnight period up to 5kwh per month.

car costs about 2 cents a mile to fuel.

sorry for the lack of columns. the webtool ate them.

---------------
also, after credits and rebate, i paid 20.5k plus tax on 33k for an SL in 2011. what could be cheaper with these fueling costs?
nothing.
Last edited by thankyouOB on Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:06 am, edited 4 times in total.
may reserve/delivery 4/30/11
--
ECOtality/LADWP/ Blink 4/4/11
--
Gardena Nissan, msrp -1k
red SL with etec L3
SOLAR POWERED since 2008

WetEV
Posts: 4162
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:11 am

gaswalla wrote:We have about 3 folks with 50k miles and claiming good battery capacity, and over 100 folks with over 15% loss already. In fact, the number of people that have lost 3 capacity bars outnumber the people with 50k miles.
Yes. In different climates.

Take someone in Juneau, AK, who limits charge/discharge rates to mostly 1C (+-20 kW drive/regenerate maximum), L2 change only, keeps SOC average around 40%, rarely goes above 70% SOC or below 20% SOC, Yes, such a person probably doesn't exist. If you have ever been to Juneau, you would probably understand why. But if they did, they would probably get to about 300,000 miles to 400,000 miles before losing 30%. That's over 25 years at 1000 miles a month. Might make the news... in 2035 or so. Unless they hit a moose first.

I suspect that there are some in Seattle area that might get to 240,000 miles. Depending on exactly where, what the garage is like, driving style, how flat the commute, charging and SOC, etc. Again, that's 20 years.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:06 am

WetEV wrote:
gaswalla wrote:We have about 3 folks with 50k miles and claiming good battery capacity, and over 100 folks with over 15% loss already. In fact, the number of people that have lost 3 capacity bars outnumber the people with 50k miles.
Yes. In different climates.

Take someone in Juneau, AK, who limits charge/discharge rates to mostly 1C (+-20 kW drive/regenerate maximum), L2 change only, keeps SOC average around 40%, rarely goes above 70% SOC or below 20% SOC, Yes, such a person probably doesn't exist. If you have ever been to Juneau, you would probably understand why. But if they did, they would probably get to about 300,000 miles to 400,000 miles before losing 30%. That's over 25 years at 1000 miles a month. Might make the news... in 2035 or so. Unless they hit a moose first.

I suspect that there are some in Seattle area that might get to 240,000 miles. Depending on exactly where, what the garage is like, driving style, how flat the commute, charging and SOC, etc. Again, that's 20 years.
nope wont happen. time degradation will also have to be considered and its really time spent at higher SOC's and what is too high? i would consider much over 40% SOC to be "high"

optimum long term storage SOC is low, too low to be practical in a transportation sense. so even charging to 80% is a compromise because that SOC is degrading your batteries albeit, very slight rate to be sure but a rate nevertheless.

so if driving a lot, SOC has to be high to get range since no one is likely to stop and charge several times a day to drive 100 miles. they would do it once near their halfway point and so on but guessing 200,000 miles is definitely still on the table for someone like TaylorSF but for others like me for instance? probably 120-150,000 simply because TaylorSF will get his 200,000 in 4 years, i will get my 120,000 in 8 years. even if our charging, driving techniques, etc were very similar.

now, keep in mind; this scenario minimizes other degradation factors that we dont have to consider but others do. each factor is not additive in effect which makes the whole degradation question very much a question.

this kinda reminds of a explanation of Toyota's Synergy Drive System. the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and i fear that degradation falls into this category as well. Phoenix owners, i fear are simply caught in a "perfect storm"
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 16,686 mi, 91.51% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:18 am

thankyouOB wrote:you guys should rebel on the PG&E rates.
LADWP TOU residential per kWh
June to September October to May
1-5pm .22 .12.5
10am-1pm & .14 .12.5
5pm-8pm
8pm-10am .10.6 .11

with .02.5 off as an electric car discount for every kwh used during the overnight period up to 5kwh per month.

car costs about 2 cents a mile to fuel.
oooh boy... umm, Madbrain; please don t take this the wrong way, but We in Olympia are also tired of paying outrageous electrical rates with minimal service. Since we do pay the highest rates in the state 400-500% higher than some areas and more commonly 40-50% higher than the majority of the state, we have an initiative to purchase Puget Sound Energy's electrical system and incorporate it into the County PUD. naturally the initial purchase price will take a long time to pay off and the electrical rates are expected to only be slightly lower (less than 10%) for 20 years before our rates will go down, but the primary goal is an improved level of service which is why we want this.

we have tiered electrical and i dont know what the rate is for tier 3 but in tier two which i am with the 1.25 cents/kwh for green power added, i am paying just over eleven and a half cents
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 16,686 mi, 91.51% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

videographer
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:38 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jun 2012
Location: Wisconsin

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:09 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
oooh boy... umm, Madbrain; please don t take this the wrong way, but We in Olympia are also tired of paying outrageous electrical rates with minimal service. Since we do pay the highest rates in the state 400-500% higher than some areas and more commonly 40-50% higher than the majority of the state...
we have tiered electrical and i dont know what the rate is for tier 3 but in tier two which i am with the 1.25 cents/kwh for green power added, i am paying just over eleven and a half cents
Really? You think that's expensive? I know Washington State is green-electricity heaven, but c'mon. Even with your green-power addon, you are below average for the US. I am on TOU here in Madison WI. Including the 3 cent Green Power Tomorrow addon, I pay 7 cents off-peak (9P - 10A during the week and all weekend) and 27 cents(!) on-peak. Talk about incentive to charge overnight! Oddly, though, my Leaf at 4.7miles/kWh boils down to two cents per mile, like a lot of other folks.

Of course, I also have 4.15Kw of solar PV, but it's getting darker and darker out there.... Christmas cannot come too soon for me. <sigh>
Madison, Wisconsin
2012 Black SL
Delivery date - June 8, 2012
Solar powered from a 4.15Kw PV array!

EatsShootsandLeafs
Posts: 693
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:59 am
Delivery Date: 24 Aug 2012

Re: LEAF is an inexpensive car to buy

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:45 am

tcherniaev wrote: So based on these affordability numbers we should call LEAF a people's car, a car that an 'average Joe' can easily afford. So why all this talk in the media about LEAF being an expensive vehicle that most can't afford? Statistically, most CAN afford to buy LEAF!
Because the media is behind the ball. I am leasing my Leaf at about the same cost as if I went out now and tried to lease a Sentra or a civic or similar, and yet $35 gets me 1000 miles.

Yep I just checked. I can lease a new corolla or sentra now at around $40/month less than my Leaf, but their mileage is so much worse they would cost more.

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