SageBrush
Posts: 5265
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Nissan LEAF Death Watch

Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:14 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:02 am
SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:00 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:47 am


What exactly are you implying? That Kona has nothing better to do than recall all their cars because it could be an ownership issue or an environmental issue or it was simply a slow Tuesday and they couldn't find anything else to do?
Slow today, I see.

I'm saying that TMS is only one of many possible reasons.
OIC. You are referring to the "other" fires. Yeah, one was bad wiring, another was out of code EVSE install and another originated elsewhere in the garage and the car was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
NO, I am saying that battery manufacturing defects that lead to a higher fire risk do not have to have anything to do with the TMS. Actually, I am not aware of *any* battery fires due to the TMS. So your statement that that the fires reflected a trade-off in having a TMS is at best ignorant BS with a heavy dose of FUD
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15049
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Nissan LEAF Death Watch

Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:31 am

SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:14 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:02 am
SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:00 am

Slow today, I see.

I'm saying that TMS is only one of many possible reasons.
OIC. You are referring to the "other" fires. Yeah, one was bad wiring, another was out of code EVSE install and another originated elsewhere in the garage and the car was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
NO, I am saying that battery manufacturing defects that lead to a higher fire risk do not have to have anything to do with the TMS. Actually, I am not aware of *any* battery fires due to the TMS. So your statement that that the fires reflected a trade-off in having a TMS is at best ignorant BS with a heavy dose of FUD
So the presence of TMS has allowed manufacturers to push the limits of the batteries? Perhaps. Manufacturing defects is the likely culprit here and saying the additional complexity of adding TMS isn't a factor is "interesting"
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
jlv
Moderator
Posts: 1438
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2014
Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Nissan LEAF Death Watch

Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:45 am

SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:45 am
There are probably a dozen (if not more )Tesla owners that still read this forum. How many own a CHAdeMO adapter ? I don't, and I don't know any Tesla owner that does. That includes all the people I have talked to at the Tesla owners club. If Nissan bought the adapter for Tesla owners the CHAdeMO usage would improve a little, but at $500 ? Doug is living in la la land.
I asked at work if any of the 75+ Tesla owners (most have a Model 3) own a CHAdeMO adapter. Not one does. There's no need for it in all of the north east US.

The adapter could be of use if you are heading into Canada, as there are more CHAdeMOs than SuCs in most of the area. I looked at getting one when we were planning a trip to PEI, but we were mostly going to be biking and not using the car, and I realized I could make do without it.

In fact, I know of exactly one person who owns a CHAdeMO adapter. He bought it nearly 6 years ago for a possible trip to Toronto in his Model S. Back then CHAdeMO definitely had more reach than the SuperCharger network. However, he never went and the adapter has never been used.
LEAF '13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17, sold 11/18) 34K mi, AHr 58, SOH 87%
Tesla S 75D (3/17)
Tesla X 100D (12/18)
100K 100% BEV miles since '14
ICE free since '18

SageBrush
Posts: 5265
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Nissan LEAF Death Watch

Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:47 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:31 am
SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:14 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:02 am


OIC. You are referring to the "other" fires. Yeah, one was bad wiring, another was out of code EVSE install and another originated elsewhere in the garage and the car was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.
NO, I am saying that battery manufacturing defects that lead to a higher fire risk do not have to have anything to do with the TMS. Actually, I am not aware of *any* battery fires due to the TMS. So your statement that that the fires reflected a trade-off in having a TMS is at best ignorant BS with a heavy dose of FUD
So the presence of TMS has allowed manufacturers to push the limits of the batteries? Perhaps. Manufacturing defects is the likely culprit here and saying the additional complexity of adding TMS isn't a factor is "interesting"
More BS. I'm saying you cannot possibly know until the investigation into the Kona is published. In the meantime you are welcome to post past investigations that have implicated the TMS as the cause or major contributor to the battery fire.

From my reading (I am not an EE), while Li-x battery fires in EVs are rare compared to ICE vehicles, they have occurred from either cracked wire insulation of disruption of the electrodes separator, both leading to shorts. You will notice that neither major cause has squat to do with the BMS. Moreover, water extinguishes Li fire so the BMS is in fact a fire retardant.

So where is the sliver of truth in all your nonsense (there has to be something, right ?) Well, LMO battery chemistry has a higher flash point than NMC. That lets Nissan build a cheaper battery without TMS but it carries the trade-offs of worse degradation and low power DC fast charging. An LMO battery with TMS would have less fire risk than an LMO battery without TMS. In a similar fashion, an NMC battery with hobbled max current will have a lower fire risk than one used in a high power environment like a Tesla.

In summary, the TMS adds safety. LMO is inherently safer than NMC but it carries performance penalties when used as a cost cutting device.
Last edited by SageBrush on Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
Posts: 5265
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Nissan LEAF Death Watch

Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:49 am

jlv wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:45 am
SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:45 am
There are probably a dozen (if not more )Tesla owners that still read this forum. How many own a CHAdeMO adapter ? I don't, and I don't know any Tesla owner that does. That includes all the people I have talked to at the Tesla owners club. If Nissan bought the adapter for Tesla owners the CHAdeMO usage would improve a little, but at $500 ? Doug is living in la la land.
I asked at work if any of the 75+ Tesla owners (most have a Model 3) own a CHAdeMO adapter. Not one does. There's no need for it in all of the north east US.
Yep.

I live in NM where Supercharger density is only a small fraction of the northeast US and my experience mirrors yours: Finding a CHAdeMO adapter is about as likely as a unicorn hiding in the frunk.
Last edited by SageBrush on Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

cwerdna
Posts: 11136
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Nissan LEAF Death Watch

Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:52 am

jlv wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:45 am
SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:45 am
There are probably a dozen (if not more )Tesla owners that still read this forum. How many own a CHAdeMO adapter ? I don't, and I don't know any Tesla owner that does. That includes all the people I have talked to at the Tesla owners club. If Nissan bought the adapter for Tesla owners the CHAdeMO usage would improve a little, but at $500 ? Doug is living in la la land.
I asked at work if any of the 75+ Tesla owners (most have a Model 3) own a CHAdeMO adapter. Not one does. There's no need for it in all of the north east US.
FWIW, I'm in the SF Bay Area and although I don't personally know these folks, these guys use the CHAdeMO adapter w/their Teslas:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-4846217 - he gets free juice via DrivetheARC
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-4982060 - he uses a new 19 cent/kWh dual-standard DC that opened up. As he noted at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-4983575, it is cheaper than using nearby Superchargers. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Santa+C ... 37.2445995 has the 3 locations. Water District has the 19 cent/kWh DC FC (and J1772s).

I noted seeing a guy w/a Model X use his CHAdeMO adapter at DrivetheARC (viewtopic.php?f=26&t=30793&p=590125&hil ... +x#p590125).

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15049
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Nissan LEAF Death Watch

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:26 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:52 am
jlv wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:45 am
SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:45 am
There are probably a dozen (if not more )Tesla owners that still read this forum. How many own a CHAdeMO adapter ? I don't, and I don't know any Tesla owner that does. That includes all the people I have talked to at the Tesla owners club. If Nissan bought the adapter for Tesla owners the CHAdeMO usage would improve a little, but at $500 ? Doug is living in la la land.
I asked at work if any of the 75+ Tesla owners (most have a Model 3) own a CHAdeMO adapter. Not one does. There's no need for it in all of the north east US.
FWIW, I'm in the SF Bay Area and although I don't personally know these folks, these guys use the CHAdeMO adapter w/their Teslas:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-4846217 - he gets free juice via DrivetheARC
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-4982060 - he uses a new 19 cent/kWh dual-standard DC that opened up. As he noted at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-4983575, it is cheaper than using nearby Superchargers. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Santa+C ... 37.2445995 has the 3 locations. Water District has the 19 cent/kWh DC FC (and J1772s).

I noted seeing a guy w/a Model X use his CHAdeMO adapter at DrivetheARC (viewtopic.php?f=26&t=30793&p=590125&hil ... +x#p590125).
We have a few dozen free level 2's scattered thru out the area and ALL types of cars use them including Tesla's. I was expecting a lesser representation of Tesla's when the Tumwater SC opened (about 5ish miles south off I-5 but that didn't seem to change much. Target/Lacey is adding a bunch like 12 or so? We shall see how much that changes things.

I always cruise the 6 Volta's at Capital Mall to see who is using them and its a rare site to not see at least one Tesla. Can't we simply ask Tesla how many adapters they have sold? Guessing if the numbers were that bad then why add the T3?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Posts: 5265
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Nissan LEAF Death Watch

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:52 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:26 pm
Can't we simply ask Tesla how many adapters they have sold? Guessing if the numbers were that bad then why add the T3?
Ask Tesla.
My *guess* is that it was relatively easy to do; and it seems clear that Canadian Tesla owners were strong advocates.
Anyway, Tesla does things only a small fraction of car owners care about , let alone are willing to pay for. How many Tesla Model 3 owners own a key fob ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15049
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Nissan LEAF Death Watch

Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:04 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:52 pm
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:26 pm
Can't we simply ask Tesla how many adapters they have sold? Guessing if the numbers were that bad then why add the T3?
Ask Tesla.
My *guess* is that it was relatively easy to do; and it seems clear that Canadian Tesla owners were strong advocates.
Anyway, Tesla does things only a small fraction of car owners care about , let alone are willing to pay for. How many Tesla Model 3 owners own a key fob ?
My take is that Tesla didn't see the need maybe due to low demand? which is why the T3 wasn't launched with the option and people complained so they added it. I am sure it was nothing more than a SW tweak so yeah low hanging fruit move. Its not like Tesla doesn't provide a lot of stuff that is not functional, just cute.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Posts: 5265
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Nissan LEAF Death Watch

Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:51 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:04 pm
SageBrush wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:52 pm
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:26 pm
Can't we simply ask Tesla how many adapters they have sold? Guessing if the numbers were that bad then why add the T3?
Ask Tesla.
My *guess* is that it was relatively easy to do; and it seems clear that Canadian Tesla owners were strong advocates.
Anyway, Tesla does things only a small fraction of car owners care about , let alone are willing to pay for. How many Tesla Model 3 owners own a key fob ?
My take is that Tesla didn't see the need maybe due to low demand? which is why the T3 wasn't launched with the option and people complained so they added it. I am sure it was nothing more than a SW tweak so yeah low hanging fruit move. Its not like Tesla doesn't provide a lot of stuff that is not functional, just cute.
The Model 3 certainly had a 'to do' list when it launched. The CHAdeMO adapter was in that list from day #1 but clearly was not a priority. Our northern neighbors may have made enough noise to bump the adapter up a few spots in the queue. One way or another, the adapter is a rare bird in the wild outside of Canada
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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