Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

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DougWantsALeaf

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Forum,

When looking at the Kia Niro vs. H. Kona vs. Nissan Leaf + SV all are about the same weight, 3,800 Lbs. (give or take 40 lbs). The Aerodynamic coefficient is the same for Leaf and Niro, and much higher for the Kona.

Kia/Hyundai are both at 64kWh, so the 2 kWh difference would account for about 8 miles of range difference.

What else is driving the range difference in range of 258, 239, and 215 for the Leaf SV.

The 43 mile difference in range between Kona and Leaf feels high given how similar the other aspects are for the 2 cars, especially given the .32 drag coe. vs. .29 for Leaf (and niro).

Inverter, tires, ...what else is driving the difference?
 
It's possible, that in upping the Leaf Plus inverter power output again, to push even more power through what is essentially the same motor that was putting out 108HP and now puts out 200+HP, some efficiency was lost.
 
Despite the Leaf "looking" aerodynamic, it actually seems LESS so than my much boxier looking eGolf. The reason I say that is at freeway speeds, the eGolf seems to use a bit less battery. I easily get 4-4.5 miles/kWH in the eGolf whereas with the Leaf I had to work to keep it above 4.

Both cars come from the factory with the Bridgestone Ecopia tires, though the ones that came with the eGolf seem to be MUCH better quality than the OEM Nissan version.
 
What pre-tax prices were you offered on these vehicles?

We cross shopped the same vehicles as well. Dealers have added thousands to MSRP for Niro EV and Kona EV. Did not ask for a Leaf e-plus quote as were looking at the 2019 40kWh SV instead.
 
LeftieBiker said:
It's possible, that in upping the Leaf Plus inverter power output again, to push even more power through what is essentially the same motor that was putting out 108HP and now puts out 200+HP, some efficiency was lost.

Are you guessing, i.e. same motor or you do you have a source?
 
Leaf is already available nation wide for thousands under MSRP and then add the federal rebate. (State ones to for those in lucky states)

I spoke our Kia dealers and it doesn’t sound they are getting the Niro ev this year, so went with the Leaf Plus SV with Tech and Weather package.

Admittedly it’s about the same as the entry level Tesla 3 with no options. (Minus the fed rebates on both sides). The base 3 is a 50Kwh battery.

I am wagering with some small mods and 40psi, leaf + mileage will beat the sticker.
 
lorenfb said:
LeftieBiker said:
It's possible, that in upping the Leaf Plus inverter power output again, to push even more power through what is essentially the same motor that was putting out 108HP and now puts out 200+HP, some efficiency was lost.

Are you guessing, i.e. same motor or you do you have a source?

Cwerdna looked it up and posted it during our previous "discussion." The 2013+, 2018 and ePlus Leafs all use the EM57. I just verified it again.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&p=552295
 
Yeah, I saw that they all use the same from the other thread.

Still curious about the mileage gap. I wonder where else there could be inefficiencies compared to Kia?

The Michelin tires appear to have a low rolling resistance.
 
According to this article, the Kona EV has a Cd of 0.29

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/10/the-new-2019-hyundai-kona-ev-is-a-clever-little-electric-crossover/

It's hard to find the frontal area for the Leaf and Kona, but I'm guessing the Kona has a smaller frontal area so the resulting drag (Cd*A) is lower than the Leaf.
 
LeftieBiker said:
lorenfb said:
LeftieBiker said:
It's possible, that in upping the Leaf Plus inverter power output again, to push even more power through what is essentially the same motor that was putting out 108HP and now puts out 200+HP, some efficiency was lost.

Are you guessing, i.e. same motor or you do you have a source?

Cwerdna looked it up and posted it during our previous "discussion." The 2013+, 2018 and ePlus Leafs all use the EM57. I just verified it again.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&p=552295

Then it's very doubtful that Nissan would design a motor that would have a noticeable loss of efficiency at higher power outputs.
Most likely the motor was initially designed for future higher outputs, as is typically done in key design areas, but was limited
to lower power outputs via the motor controller (inverter/ECU/module/whatever) when used with lower capacity batteries.
Without any very actual/actuate efficiency logging data, what the repeatability of the efficiency tests were, and how Nissan
setup the different models for the EPA tests and Nissan's desired results, one really is guessing as to the source of the
apparent differences.
 
Yes, it was clear that I was guessing about possible efficiency loss - just as you are just guessing about Nissan designing the EM57 motor for possible future output of well over 200HP. Because Nissan is well known for future-proofing the Leaf. ;)
 
LeftieBiker said:
Yes, it was clear that I was guessing about possible efficiency loss - just as you are just guessing about Nissan designing the EM57 motor for possible future output of well over 200HP. Because Nissan is well known for future-proofing the Leaf. ;)

What is more likely, that Nissan has used a poorly designed motor that results in less efficiency at significantly higher outputs
or that the efficiency difference between the various Leaf models is attributable to other factors? That's the guessing issue.

The key point being overlooked here is that Nissan knows well in advance what the EPA number will be before the EPA
actually tests its vehicles. Surely you don't think that Nissan or any automotive company naively provides a vehicle to
the EPA without extensive preparation and testing?
 
I currently have a Hyundai Kona that I am evaluating. I also have a 2018 LEAF Plus coming next Friday, followed by a Kia Niro. I'm behind on publishing by road tests, but will have all three up by the end of the month. Here is a photo of the Kona Ultimate EV along with a Nexo fuel cell that I had the week before.

hyundai-nexo-kona.jpeg


The short summary is: The Kona returned a full charge mileage of 257 miles during a 70-75 mph trip and is returning 4-4.3 Miles/kWh. Overall the biggest issue that I have encountered with the Kona is the extremely loud road noise from the tires. The Korean Nexen LRR tires had been inflated to 44 psi, but even when I lowered them to 36, they were still much louder than Michelin or Bridgestone LLR tires especially in the rear. Part of the issue is that the rear wheel liners are hard plastic instead of the fiber liners like on the LEAF.

The version that I have is the Ultimate, and it has an MSRP of $45,830, which places it in the same price range as other luxury CUVs like the Lexus UX.

Otherwise, performance is awesome, and the little HUD screen (like on Mazdas) is a great feature. Of course the Kona is a CUV about the size inside of a eGolf, or Lexus UX, much smaller than the interior of the LEAF.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
Orient Express, what was your range experience with the 2018 Leaf in terms of range? At freeway speeds (65 Mph), were you still able to get above 4 miles/kWh?

Yeah, on a full charge freeway driving I can usually get 165/175 miles or 4.2 m/kWh or so. Over the lifetime of the car it has an average of 3.9 m/kWh.

I'll be interested to see what the Plus range really is. I suspect that it will be significantly higher than the EPA range.
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
At freeway speeds (65 Mph), were you still able to get above 4 miles/kWh?

As always, it all JUST depends on:

1. the driver
2. the grade of the road
3. the tire pressures
4. the ambient temp
5. the wind conditions
6. the traffic conditions
7. the number of people in the vehicle
8. the settings on the climate control system
9. the ECO and/or e-pedal settings

It's so simple to do a comparative range analysis on BEV, right?
 
lorenfb said:
DougWantsALeaf said:
At freeway speeds (65 Mph), were you still able to get above 4 miles/kWh?

As always, it all JUST depends on:

1. the driver
2. the grade of the road
3. the tire pressures
4. the ambient temp
5. the wind conditions
6. the traffic conditions
7. the number of people in the vehicle
8. the settings on the climate control system
9. the ECO and/or e-pedal settings

It's so simple to do a comparative range analysis on BEV, right?

And then there's the actual measurement error and correlation error (between vehicles) each assume about +/- 2.5%.
So for two vehicles with a nominal range each about 200 miles, the combined error is about 5%. Then the
overall accuracy is about +/-5%, or a range error about +/- 10 miles between the two. So then which had the greater
range for comparison?

Actually, it's naive to attempt to differentiate vehicles with very close ranges!
 
Is the cruise any more efficient in the newer leaf? In my 2013 I always found I did better with it off and carefully managing the throttle, especially on inclines allowing a bit of speed drift on the ups, and more coast on the downs.


I always wanted a constant power cruise (Ex: 10 kW per hour) rather then a speed.
 
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