GaleHawkins
Posts: 480
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Fri May 07, 2021 9:40 pm

voltamps wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 5:43 am
GaleHawkins, how did the magnets look?
GaleHawkins wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:12 pm
.....added a quart of new ATF then added 6 oz of Archoil AR9100 fluid
Archoil says to use 1.8 oz of Archoil in that much engine oil. Could be they've seen foaming with using over 3 times as much like you did. In high-RPM spinning gears, foaming can be an issue. For example, pro racers don't dare deviate from a fully formulated & tested ("track record" is everything with pit crews) oil, engine or gearbox, out of concern they spark foaming (aeration) at high speed.

Tempting to experiment with different stuff in the fluid though. You just don't know what the final result will be, as it must compete with the regular ATF fluid for surface action. I got crazy a few years back & put in some polymer esters into a differential once, just a bit. I only imagined it might make a difference, who knows?

After a year, maybe check the magnets for iron as the only real measure we have of how much Archoil or anything else might work. Even that is subject to many variables, although one use on here (was it Estomax?) had clean magnets after a few thou miles using premium Redline D6 fluid. Some evidence the premium sauce makes a difference anyway!
Keep in mind the subject is gear box fluids because the Leaf has no engine. :)

While we use Archoil AR9100 in all motors, transmissions and gear drive lines actually the AR9100 idea was posted by another Leaf owner.

voltamps
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:13 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2020

Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Sat May 08, 2021 6:43 am

I wonder if the additive companies are just trying to make a buck & don't actually help a fully-formulated ATF fluid in our Leaf gearboxes. Where is the proof? Taxi fleet tests maybe? Something please.

I'd recommend Redline D6 or Amsoil SS Fuel Efficient (all PAO and/or POE base enhanced) if one wanted to improve on Nissan's Matic S for better wear protection & friction reduction. Those companies work with Lubrizol or other big chemical companies like them, to produce a tested, proven product, as is, no additives needed.
GaleHawkins wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:40 pm
Keep in mind the subject is gear box fluids because the Leaf has no engine. :)
That explains why the Leaf runs so quiet. ..... Archoil says to use 4 oz in a Leaf transmission. You used 6 oz. Still, maybe it wouldn't hurt, it's impossible to tell without actual real tests.

Foaming is a concern, and the way it interacts with the tribofilm on the gear and bearing surfaces from the highly engineered, fully-formulated Nissan Matic S or similar ATF fluids Nissan specs.

Here are the instructions, and we notice Archoil has separate instructions for ICE engines vs. transmissions:
https://www.oil-fuelconsultancy.nl/imag ... urope1.pdf

If somebody wanted to try to improve on an ATF fluid in a Leaf gearbox, good luck with that, it would be hit or miss.

Liqui Moly's "Ceratec", which uses hexagonal boron nitrides like Archoil, but with lots of moly added too, was tested on gears, although they don't say what "Reference Oil" it was compared to (plain base oil or a real gear lube?), so impossible to tell if the Ceratec actually improved anything. It's as if they are being deceptive. ....
https://www.liqui-moly.com/en/ca/compan ... 477-1.html
2020 Leaf SV
2016 Ford Focus Electric (traded in at 34k miles, 5 years)

GaleHawkins
Posts: 480
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Sat May 08, 2021 9:20 am

voltamps wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 6:43 am
I wonder if the additive companies are just trying to make a buck & don't actually help a fully-formulated ATF fluid in our Leaf gearboxes. Where is the proof? Taxi fleet tests maybe? Something please.

I'd recommend Redline D6 or Amsoil SS Fuel Efficient (all PAO and/or POE base enhanced) if one wanted to improve on Nissan's Matic S for better wear protection & friction reduction. Those companies work with Lubrizol or other big chemical companies like them, to produce a tested, proven product, as is, no additives needed.
GaleHawkins wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:40 pm
Keep in mind the subject is gear box fluids because the Leaf has no engine. :)
That explains why the Leaf runs so quiet. ..... Archoil says to use 4 oz in a Leaf transmission. You used 6 oz. Still, maybe it wouldn't hurt, it's impossible to tell without actual real tests.

Foaming is a concern, and the way it interacts with the tribofilm on the gear and bearing surfaces from the highly engineered, fully-formulated Nissan Matic S or similar ATF fluids Nissan specs.

Here are the instructions, and we notice Archoil has separate instructions for ICE engines vs. transmissions:
https://www.oil-fuelconsultancy.nl/imag ... urope1.pdf

If somebody wanted to try to improve on an ATF fluid in a Leaf gearbox, good luck with that, it would be hit or miss.

Liqui Moly's "Ceratec", which uses hexagonal boron nitrides like Archoil, but with lots of moly added too, was tested on gears, although they don't say what "Reference Oil" it was compared to (plain base oil or a real gear lube?), so impossible to tell if the Ceratec actually improved anything. It's as if they are being deceptive. ....
https://www.liqui-moly.com/en/ca/compan ... 477-1.html
In my mind oil additives are used to meet emotional needs of the machine's owner more than anything else. :)

Tesla uses pressurized lube with an oil filter setup for some non emotional reason I expect.

At $200-$250 a gallon the the Archoil AR9100 is not cheap. It is not the additive in the ATF but the additive in the AR9100 that leaves the ATF and bonds to the gear teeth that I am going for.

I expect the $12 per gallon Marvel Mystery Oil
We used to flush out the black ATF added more life value than the AR9100 perhaps.

Let's get real and ask how many reduction gear failures occur when the ATF was never changed?

The cool thing with the 12v battery set out one can see a three plugs. Our level check plug magnet had as much if not more steel sludge than the drain plug magnet.

Going forward we will just set out the battery and see how much steel is on the ATF level check plug and clean and replace it.

The ATF was jet black after after 37K miles for some reason. Not sure that's a bad thing since most gear box lubes wind up black.

voltamps
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:13 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2020

Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Sat May 08, 2021 11:30 am

GaleHawkins wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:20 am
how many reduction gear failures occur when the ATF was never changed?
One. ... That we know of. ... Valdemar's gears-bearings in there start rattling around at 160k miles. Instead of replacing the thing, he could try putting in thicker GL-5 75w-85 gear oil & see if that settled it down, cheaper. It would be a good place to try dumping in some MOS2 additive too, why not, on an older unit you're trying to get 30k more miles out of.

Guessing the bearings would be the first to go, not the gears anyway.

Interesting what might break on Leafs past 120k miles or so. One article I pulled up showed an '18 Leaf 40kWH used as a taxi in the U.K. with 120k miles, utterly abused, a good long-term test example for Nissan & AESC. Battery pouch cells expanded. Might not happen if it's not charged 4 times a day with high amps.
https://insideevs.com/news/482245/nissa ... -benefits/
GaleHawkins wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:20 am
Going forward we will just set out the battery and see how much steel is on the ATF level check plug and clean and replace it.
Cleaning off the fill plug magnet should allow it to collect more metal out of the fluid in the future. Could be an easy way to service it from now on.
2020 Leaf SV
2016 Ford Focus Electric (traded in at 34k miles, 5 years)

SageBrush
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Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Sun May 09, 2021 9:30 am

I exchanged the ATF in my 2013 LEAF today. The car had its original oil, and is at ~ 39k miles. Gentle driving

Word to the wise: spray some WD-40 first, and come back in 5 minutes. Those bolts are on tight.

Each magnet had some black slime but did not look covered. The photos look different ;-)
The oil itself was grey-black, and really thin. If I had not read comments I would have worried about water. The most remarkable part of the exercise was draining a fair bit less than 1.5 liters. Perhaps 1.2. Since a good 1.5 quarts went in, it means either some oil was lost over the years or the original fill was too little. I didn't see any sign of oil leaking from the bolts. After the fact, I imagine that adding oil to spec level was the useful part of this job.

Here is a link to an album of photos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/tCNbfydewcZnYejF9
The black smudges on the paper towels came off the magnets
The purplish oil on the paper towel is the original oil.
Two Alu washers were sacrificed
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

voltamps
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:13 pm
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Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Sun May 09, 2021 12:26 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:30 am
The most remarkable part of the exercise was draining a fair bit less than 1.5 liters. Perhaps 1.2. Since a good 1.5 quarts went in, it means either some oil was lost over the years or the original fill was too little. I didn't see any sign of oil leaking from the bolts. After the fact, I imagine that adding oil to spec level was the useful part of this job.
It might be the factory did it, or it evaporated out the air vent tube over the last 8 years. I think it was knightmb who noticed small amounts might be escaping out the vent tube, as he was smelling it at high speeds. One or both of those things.

This gearbox probably isn't too sensitive to 1 quart or up to 1.8 quarts since it just churns on that big gear to sling it around.

I had a '15 C-Max with what I thought was low fluid from the factory on it's Prius-style fixed planetary gearset tranny. Temperature readings taken before I corrected the fluid & after did look like there was a small amount more cooling happening when full.

Technically you never need to change this fluid again. One and done.
2020 Leaf SV
2016 Ford Focus Electric (traded in at 34k miles, 5 years)

SageBrush
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Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Sun May 09, 2021 1:55 pm

voltamps wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 12:26 pm
Technically you never need to change this fluid again. One and done.
That's my plan :D

What did you think of the old oil and grime ? About as expected ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

voltamps
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:13 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2020

Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Sun May 09, 2021 3:08 pm

Looked like less magnet iron than most posted on here. Gears r in good shape. A heavy foot from a start is probably what makes it worse.
2020 Leaf SV
2016 Ford Focus Electric (traded in at 34k miles, 5 years)

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6238
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
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Location: NM

Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Sun May 09, 2021 3:49 pm

GaleHawkins wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 9:20 am
Going forward we will just set out the battery and see how much steel is on the ATF level check plug and clean and replace it.
I noticed the same -- the fill plug had most of the grime, and the lion's share of the metal filings. I only remember because I was expecting the opposite.

I don't expect to put enough miles on the car before EOL or sale to think about the ATF again but I'd consider it quite reasonable after one exchange to simply pull and clean the fill plug every 30k miles or so, and perhaps exchange the oil every 90k miles. I say the latter as a WAG, meant to replenish additives.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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Nubo
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Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Mon May 10, 2021 11:09 am

SageBrush wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:55 pm
voltamps wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 12:26 pm
Technically you never need to change this fluid again. One and done.
That's my plan :D

What did you think of the old oil and grime ? About as expected ?
Looks pretty normal. The residue can appear "crunchier" than it really is, as the metal fines align themselves into spiky filaments along magnetic lines of force. When cleaning the plug you can rub the residue between your fingers to see if there are any unusually large fragments hidden, or just examine the paper towels closely.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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