Why would anyone buy a nissan leaf right now???

With Superchargers on the way we have one about every 90 miles and here and a bunch in Minneapolis, there is only 1 CCS option about 180 miles from here, which A better Route Planner says the new Bolt will make it staying under 65mph. Leaving here would be fine, but coming home I would have to sit there until 100% to drive 65 on the way home...

cwerdna said:

^^^
Interesting...

At the same time, the 2019 and 2020 Bolt (esp. the latter) have a bit more range than the 62 kWh Leaf: https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=42191&id=41277&id=41276&id=40520. Maybe that's another thing pushing them towards Bolt along w/battery thermal management?

You're right about Bolt discounting publicity. I've heard of basically 0 for Leaf and Leaf Plus in that dept.

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I do also think that a lot of people are putting a bit too much value on TMS which is pushing them towards both Tesla and the Bolt. If I were living farther south, I think it would weigh very heavily on me as well but at an effective price of less than $26,000 tax free, I am not regretting my decision. TBH, I was considering the Bolt but BOTH times the Bolt prices were low, I wasn't in the market. Now if I had waited on the E Plus until now, I would be getting a car that sat "somewhere" for 6 months but would have only saved about $2,000 since S Plus discounts are very small.

The real savings is people who wanted SV with tech or SL's. They are making a killing right now.

I tried investigating the Bolt as a possible car for our kids given the advertised deals. When finally talking to a sales person, the magic low price ended up being a few K higher, and lease deals weren't anything that amazing (not expensive..but not like the $129/month Ionic deals).

That and I really did not like driving the car. I think it has some cool tech in the 2020 with the digital mirror, and I am kind of partial to the min/median/max range detail and kW used...just hate the feel and seats. Cargo is also not nearly as generous...but we could have dealt with it.

As a conservative driver, in June I/we are averaging (including multiple highway stints and a trip to Wisconsin), 4.8 miles per kW. (My more aggressive driving son and wife also account for a chunk of that driving) I forgot how well the car does as the air temperature heats up. (It is really nice when above 80F). With GOM at 172 miles with a 62% SOC charge as I type, I guess additional range beyond what I have is really feeling a lot less valuable then when I had my 2013. As I mentioned in a separate post, the efficiency this summer feels notably higher than any month last summer. A small part might be that for local driving I use ePedal most of the time. Highway (55-60mph) is also doing a bit better than last summer as well. Smooth tires?

Separately, I am very impressed with Tesla efficiency at highway speeds. I have been watching a few recent posts on youtube with full 70MPH range tests on the LR and SR+ M3. 4.4-4.6 miles/kW at 70 is amazing. That would probably be my biggest advice to Nissan to find a way to improve the high speed efficiency. Drag is a piece of it, but I think there is an electronic/power train efficiency aspect as well. Low speeds see the cars having much more identical characteristics from what I have seen. Second piece of advice is to get rid of the rear hump and install a fan vent in the back.

^^^
You talking about kWh and miles per kWh? "miles per kW" makes no sense.

The "digital mirror" is also available on gen 2 Leaf. On my Bolt, I personally don't use it most of the time as my eyes have trouble switching focus between the road ahead vs. looking at the digital part of the mirror. So, I normally have it flipped to be a regular mirror.

Yeah, one advantage of Bolt is that that's no rear hump on the floor for the rear center seat.

That's too bad about Bolt price. As for leases, I looked into when I was in the market and didn't feel like paying the amounts I was seeing to "rent" the car for 3 years. Also, the lease deals I was seeing at http://ev-vin.blogspot.com/ back then were for LT trim (lower trim) and pretty stripped down. I wanted Premier (higher trim) + DC FC inlet, at minimum.

I can understand Dave not valuing TMS much. That's an ideal climate for Leaf batteries. However, many people in the US don't live in such a mild climate and we've been burned in the past by Leaf battery degradation and it's still a big unknown on 62 kWh Leaf.

And, as I said at the time in the market (Jan 2019), Leaf Plus wasn't shipping in the US yet. There was only the mention of Spring (2019). Bolts were heavily discounted + had $7500 Federal tax credit. It didn't seem reasonable to think that Leaf Plus would have heavy discounts at the beginning esp. when Bolt's tax credit would fall to $3750 beginning on 4/1/19 (https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml).

I didn't feel the 40 kWh Leaf (highest capacity available in Jan 2019) would cut it as my only car and rapidgate was in full swing (https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/05/nissan-leaf-rapidgate-mostly-solved-by-software-update/) w/Nissan balking at releasing the fix to the US market. It wasn't until July 2019 that they finally released it for the US via NTB19-056 (https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10163708-9999.pdf).

Leaf 2 has a screen in the rear view mirror like the bolt??

I have a 2019 SV with tech package, but know of no such available option. In the 2020 Bolt, the rear view mirror can act as a mirror or a digital screen showing the rear camera. I know I ca bring up the rear camera On the main screen while driving the Leaf, but that’s not quite the same thing.

The "digital mirror" is also available on gen 2 Leaf. On my Bolt, I personally don't use it most of the time as my eyes have trouble switching focus between the road ahead vs. looking at the digital part of the mirror. So, I normally have it flipped to be a regular mirror.

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To the best of my knowledge, there is no mirror linked to a camera available on any Leaf, ever. If there is it must be a 2021 option. The Leaf SV and SV+ now have Around View available in the Tech Package, as of the 2020 MY.

LeftieBiker said:

The "digital mirror" is also available on gen 2 Leaf. On my Bolt, I personally don't use it most of the time as my eyes have trouble switching focus between the road ahead vs. looking at the digital part of the mirror. So, I normally have it flipped to be a regular mirror.

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To the best of my knowledge, there is no mirror linked to a camera available on any Leaf, ever. If there is it must be a 2021 option. The Leaf SV and SV+ now have Around View available in the Tech Package, as of the 2020 MY.

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Woah... unless I'm having a brain fart, I could've sworn the pre-production gen 2 Leaf I test drove years ago before it went on sale in the US had it. And, thus I assumed (incorrectly?) that it became available as an option on US market gen 2 Leafs. Hmmm...

However, my 1st experience w/this type of mirror was on a test drive of a Bolt years before I bought mine at either an EVent or the San Jose Auto Show.

Looks like for Australia or maybe their press car, https://www.drive.com.au/new-car-reviews/2018-nissan-leaf-first-drive-review-116140 had it. Search for mirror.

I believe you, but it apparently didn't make it to the US. I have no problem with the auto-dimming Leaf mirror. As noted when the Bolt came out (and I agreed) the Bolt's camera-mirror can cause eyestrain as your focus shifts back and forth.

As far as I know, there was no option for a "digital mirror" on the 2019 LEAF SL Plus (mine has all of the automatic/convenience features) and I saw no additional options for the mirror. I have driven a few rental or fleet vehicles with the rear camera display in the rearview mirror and I hate them. I much prefer the rear view camera display on the navigation screen.

Why did I choose another LEAF?
1. Good experience with the two previous ones.
2. I like the hatchback design and cargo capacity--Bolt is too small so I would end up using other vehicles for hauling stuff.
3. I don't like having all (or most) car/accessory controls on a touch screen and I want the speedometer in front of the steering wheel so I don't need to take my eyes too far off the road to see how fast I am going.
4. I like the higher roof line and seating position of the LEAF compared to other vehicles in the price range which are available in Arizona. I really like the Jaguar, but did not want to spend that much on a daily driver and be paranoid about rock chips or other damage every time I drive.
5. The $7,500 tax credit helped me avoid tax penalties due to inadvertent under withholding (caused by tax law changes).

After 9 months and 17,000 miles, I only have two negative items/concerns:
1. OEM Michelin tires on the 2019 were as bad as they were on the 2015, but that is behind me since I replaced them at 15,000 miles. The Bridgestone Ecopias that came on the 2011 were much better tires.
2. The touch screen on the navigation system is too sensitive and difficult to make selections without inadvertent scrolling. The screen went crazy when I used lens cleaning tissues to clean the screen before driving home from the office one day. It acted like someone was randomly touching the screen and changing menus for the entire 45-minute drive home. I had to turn the audio off because it was jumping stations and switching sources continually. I could not do anything until I got home and was able to clean the screen with clear water to restore normal function. The "inadvertent touching" made a bunch of setting changes so I had to go through each menu and correct the settings. The software that controls/operates the navigation/menu system is also not as intuitive as the system in the previous cars so I find it much more distracting to use while driving. This experience confirmed my concerns about buying a vehicle that puts too many functions on a touch screen.

It's possible I had a complete brain fart re: my test drive of a pre-production '18 Leaf and its mirror. The car was fully loaded though (w/Pro-Pilot Assist and AVM). But, it's also possible those vehicles were not necessarily representative of what Nissan USA eventually offered for sale.

Like Gary I found the cargo room of the Bolt to not be great so we wrote it off just that reason disqualified it. Also like Gary one of the things I don't care for about the Tesla is the lack of switches and knobs for things like climate control or climate control, the reason I dislike this is I have to look away from the road to figure out what the touch screens says to play with it. You may counter saying voice controls but I have found those imperfect as of yet plus when you have screaming kids or whatever it can be less than ideal. The lack of a TMS for the battery is disappointing but things do seem to not be so bad here in Colorado for a LEAF. I think the niceties like heated steering wheel, seats or pro pilot assist were lacking on some. The build quality of the LEAF seems higher than a Tesla. In Colorado Xcel had additional rebates for the Leaf and Outlander (ONLY) so we got more discounts than any other EV. Arizona is a different story of course.

Things I don't like about the LEAF is that darn bump in the floor at the middle of the rear seat, I feel the front seats are a little more narrow than say a prius some of that is the design of the center console area I think. That bump is the most annoying even though I only made use of the middle rear seat maybe 4 times and will not do so again any time soon. What I have not done is look at the Korean offerings yet which I really need to do, looks like we may have a lot more choice coming in the pipeline which is what I always wanted.

Gerry, do you find that efficiency is much different between ecopia and the Michelin’s? What don't you like about the Michelin’s?

The one great use I have found for the rear hump is that it is a perfect size for a small cooler. When we took a road trip for a college visit. (Me and my 3 kids) we put the cooler there for drinks and it was very accessible for everyone. Wife got a couple days off from the kids.

You may counter saying voice controls but I have found those imperfect as of yet plus when you have screaming kids or whatever it can be less than ideal.

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"If you kids don't shut up, I'm going to run this car right into that bridge!!!

"Auto-Pilot engaged. To cancel Auto-Pilot, select "Cancel" from the Auto-Pilot sub-menu. Bridge impact in 5,4,3,..."

cwerdna said:

It's possible I had a complete brain fart re: my test drive of a pre-production '18 Leaf and its mirror. The car was fully loaded though (w/Pro-Pilot Assist and AVM). But, it's also possible those vehicles were not necessarily representative of what Nissan USA eventually offered for sale.

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FWIW, I wrote at https://www.tivocommunity.com/community/index.php?threads/ev-and-phev-general-discussion-thread.473842/page-399#post-11850220 (you'll need a free account there to see my post) at end of Aug 2019:
"Ditto with my '19 Bolt Premier's LCD/mirror when in monitor mode.

I first experienced on a test drive of a Bolt years ago but also the '18+ Leaf could have it as an option. I test drove a pre-production '18 Leaf before they were for sale in the US with it, as well."

In Nov 2017, at https://www.tivocommunity.com/community/index.php?threads/nissan-electric-car-leaf-rip-off-or-practical.443058/page-51#post-11358678 (also need a TCF account), I also wrote about the JDM Leaf I saw at https://www3.nissan.co.jp/crossing/en.html which was also equipped w/such a mirror.

So, it seems something changed between what was decided for pre-production units for test drives and EVents vs. what went on sale. Back then, Nissan had a thing where in certain regions, they would bring you a pre-production '18 Leaf to test drive accompanied for up to an hour.

DougWantsALeaf said:

Gerry, do you find that efficiency is much different between ecopia and the Michelin’s? What don't you like about the Michelin’s?

The one great use I have found for the rear hump is that it is a perfect size for a small cooler. When we took a road trip for a college visit. (Me and my 3 kids) we put the cooler there for drinks and it was very accessible for everyone. Wife got a couple days off from the kids.

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I bought Ecopia Plus (215/55 R17 size from Discount Tire) as the last set of tires for the 2015 and they were better efficiency, much better traction (both wet and dry braking), better handling (cornering and stability in cross wind), and longer tread life than the OEM Michelins. Michelin makes good tires, but the Energy Saver A/S OEMs that come on the Leafs are marginal (I consider them the worst radial tires I have driven on). I had a set of sport performance Michelins on the 2011 that I liked, but they dropped the range compared to the OEM Ecopias and, like most Michelin passenger car tires in my climate, sidewalls were starting to show weather cracking by the time of the accident. I use Michelin sport performance motorcycle tires and have never seen premature cracking on them. One thing I found with the Ecopias (both OEM on 2011 and replacement tires on 2015) is that wet braking traction is terrible at 36 psi and great at 44 psi. I believe that 36 is too soft for the weight of the Leaf so the tires distort under braking forces and water builds up under the tread.

I plan to attach a small box or cooler to the rigid plastic cover over the battery disconnect for accessible storage that will stay in place. The LEAFs are the only front wheel drive cars I have ever owned so the hump seems normal to me.

I plan to attach a small box or cooler to the rigid plastic cover over the battery disconnect for accessible storage that will stay in place.

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Good idea, but make sure it has an obvious quick disconnect for emergency personnel to use to get to the HV disconnect. Just Velcro tape on the sides of the box/cooler, running down the sides of the disconnect hump, might suffice.

LeftieBiker said:

You may counter saying voice controls but I have found those imperfect as of yet plus when you have screaming kids or whatever it can be less than ideal.

Click to expand...

"If you kids don't shut up, I'm going to run this car right into that bridge!!!

"Auto-Pilot engaged. To cancel Auto-Pilot, select "Cancel" from the Auto-Pilot sub-menu. Bridge impact in 5,4,3,..."

Click to expand...

That's great, thanks LeftieBiker. I actually do have two little ones too the little boy likes to make google make fart noises.

cwerdna said:

It's possible I had a complete brain fart re: my test drive of a pre-production '18 Leaf and its mirror. The car was fully loaded though (w/Pro-Pilot Assist and AVM). But, it's also possible those vehicles were not necessarily representative of what Nissan USA eventually offered for sale.

Click to expand...

I did the Las Vegas intro drive and there was no mirror camera view but I have to agree that I have used them in the past and it is not an easy thing to get used to.

DougWantsALeaf said:

Gerry, do you find that efficiency is much different between ecopia and the Michelin’s? What don't you like about the Michelin’s?

The one great use I have found for the rear hump is that it is a perfect size for a small cooler. When we took a road trip for a college visit. (Me and my 3 kids) we put the cooler there for drinks and it was very accessible for everyone. Wife got a couple days off from the kids.

Click to expand...

On the tire question; I have seen several flip to Michelin's due to a perceived better wet road handling but with a loss of range. The range you lose appears to be highly dependent on your driving OR... the people I talked to didn't pay enough attention to the difference to notice.

But everyone who went to Michelins say they wear out faster than their OEMs did. I originally thought the reason was simply older, more used suspension system but maybe not?

I have found the opposite to be true, I have gone through 3 sets of Ecopia's, lasting 14,100, 13,900 (on VW Jetta wagon) and 11,900 I thought the first set was just they were not "plus", the second set of plus's were from a random local dealer and the third set was from Tire Rack, 3 times shame on me. Then I went to Michelin Energy Savers that went 23,555, and the last set is Michelin Defenders with 33,800 but are close to done.

I had an alignment done with each new set (none were outside spec) and rotated at 5k. Tires (and alignments) were the most expensive part of this car per mile before we hit 70k, now with the Defenders just finally being less than the juice to move it

The best miles to kWh were the stock non-plus's with a close second Michelin energy savers. The lowest are not surprisingly the Defenders, not the Michelin x-ice's I run all winter.