SageBrush
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:44 am

knightmb wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:28 pm
SageBrush wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:44 pm
Both Porsche and Hyundai have 800v architectures, they use the same cells, and you don't think Hyundai has a physics defying superior engineering that no other EV company has come up with.

So what is left to explain Hyundai "beating" Porsche handily at the charging speed game ?
Porsche says its Taycan can be charged from 5% to 80% percent in exactly 22.5 minutes.
Hyundai said that it can charge the Ioniq 5 from 10% to 80% in just 18 minutes.

So Porsche, 3.33% charge per minute,
Then Hyundai gets 3.89% charge per minute.

That's close enough to be a rounding error between the two. Both using 800V systems, don't know the exact battery capacity of both. I wouldn't call either of them beating the other since just a few seconds delay between plugging them both in to charge could make one or other other win.
Ignoring that one starts at 5% "SoC" and the other 10% "SoC" ***, 22.5/18 = 25% longer charging time for the Porsche.
That is not a rounding error. And remember, the Porsche already shifts the charging curve ~ 10 kWh to the left** at nominal full due to the unused capacity.

** IIRC the specs, 93 kWh nominal and 83 kWh usable. The "80% SoC" of the Porsche would be 83*0.8 = 66.4 kWh in the battery, so 66.4/93 = 71% nominal SoC. Addendum: Bjorn Nyland has a nice Audi GT (800v system, big buffer) charging session that shows the car at 160 kW when the "SoC" is 70% and 90 kW when the "SoC" is 80%. That taper shift makes for headline news but it is smoke and mirrors.

*** 5% SoC is ~ 4 kWh, so about a 60 - 90 seconds of charging time
Last edited by SageBrush on Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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knightmb
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:42 am

SageBrush wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:44 am
knightmb wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:28 pm
SageBrush wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:44 pm
Both Porsche and Hyundai have 800v architectures, they use the same cells, and you don't think Hyundai has a physics defying superior engineering that no other EV company has come up with.

So what is left to explain Hyundai "beating" Porsche handily at the charging speed game ?
Porsche says its Taycan can be charged from 5% to 80% percent in exactly 22.5 minutes.
Hyundai said that it can charge the Ioniq 5 from 10% to 80% in just 18 minutes.

So Porsche, 3.33% charge per minute,
Then Hyundai gets 3.89% charge per minute.

That's close enough to be a rounding error between the two. Both using 800V systems, don't know the exact battery capacity of both. I wouldn't call either of them beating the other since just a few seconds delay between plugging them both in to charge could make one or other other win.
Ignoring that one starts at 5% "SoC" and the other 10% "SoC" ***, 22.5/18 = 25% longer charging time for the Porsche.
That is not a rounding error. And remember, the Porsche already shifts the charging curve ~ 10 kWh to the left** due to the unused capacity.

** IIRC the specs, 93 kWh nominal and 83 kWh usable. The "80% SoC" of the Porsche would be 83*0.8 = 66.4 kWh in the battery, so 66.4/93 = 71% nominal SoC.

*** 5% SoC is ~ 4 kWh, so about a 60 - 90 seconds of charging time
While I think this part of this topic is getting a little out there... The Taycan is charging 75% and the Ioniq 5 is charging 70%, so that 5% does make a difference. If they both started at 10% SOC, the Taycan would finish 1.5 minutes sooner, so closer to 21 minutes. 1 - 18/21 = 14% faster for the Ioniq 5.

Realistically in Human terms, I don't think the owner of either EV is going to complain that it takes too long relative to the other over a 3 minute gap. That is in relation to the scale of time for a long trip. It's really just an opinion if you believe it beats the other handily at charging speed. In my opinion, for the Hyundai to handily beat Porsche, it would need to be at least twice as fast so that the time frames really have some impact. Say 18 minutes vs 36 minutes for fast charging since handily refers to skill. I don't see Hyundai doing anything that can't be accounted for just having a smaller battery capacity, all things being equal in technology.
Last edited by knightmb on Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SageBrush
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:47 am

knightmb wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:42 am
Realistically in Human terms, I don't think the owner is either EV is going to complain that it takes too long relative to the other over a 3 minute gap. That is in relation to the scale of time for a long trip.
It is a lie, and marketing deception. It leads to the ignorant media touting the '800 V' system as superior tech and people here swallowing the BS. It will take a while for people to figure out the that the "SoC" charging curve has been corrupted and no longer has any useful meaning -- not that it had much in the first place since in the end the metric of merit is miles of range added per minute starting from ~ 50 miles range and ending at ~ 250 miles. It can be stated as

kWh to add 200 EPA miles of range
Time to add 200 EPA miles of range
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cwerdna
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:12 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:44 pm
Both Porsche and Hyundai have 800v architectures, they use the same cells
They do?

It seems Taycan uses cells from LG Chem whereas Ioniq 5 uses cells from SK Innovation.
SageBrush wrote: It is a lie, and marketing deception. It leads to the ignorant media touting the '800 V' system as superior tech and people here swallowing the BS.
What if Tesla goes to higher voltage charging like 800 volts? Will your tune change?

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knightmb
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:23 pm

You might be on to something with the "time to 200 EPA miles". But, one could go worse and state "time to 100 EPA miles" and then people that don't know how Lithium battery charging work just do some incorrect mental math and think, only twice the wait to 200 miles or triple the wait to 300 EPA miles. :lol:

Back to the Ariya, so from what I'm reading on the specs, max charging power is 130 kW, so charging 10% SoC to 80% SoC is 35 minutes. If one only buys an EV based on fast charge time and nothing else, then so the free market goes. I wouldn't buy a EV for the fast charge time alone though, many variables such as price and usable stuff have to factor in. Maybe Nissan can use this extra time to decrease the fast charge time, but as we've seen with the cell phones that charge in a few minutes, it comes at a cost to battery life. I would not want to sacrifice battery life to save a few minutes on fast charging for occasional road trips. Someone else that makes frequent road trips and want the extra time savings at expense to the battery, so let the market follow. If the technology of the battery improves so that fast charging doesn't affect battery life, then great! I don't doubt that Nissan could just through more power into the battery if they wanted, but maybe their market research shows something that we don't know about here.
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SageBrush
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:28 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:12 pm
What if Tesla goes to higher voltage charging like 800 volts? Will your tune change?
When the physics change.

800v systems have advantages. I fully expect truck centric charging to be higher voltage. My point -- that you as well as others fail to grasp -- is that 800v systems do not affect C-rate. I realize that does not mean anything to you so just watch the Bjorn Nyland comparison charging videos instead. All the ~ 90 kWh battery EVs peak at ~ 250 kW regardless of whether the system is 400v or 800v. Moreover, the taper to lower charging rates is not due to the charger, it is due to cell chemistry.

End of story. Physics. Deal with it.
Last edited by SageBrush on Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
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SageBrush
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:34 pm

knightmb wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:23 pm
You might be on to something with the "time to 200 EPA miles". But, one could go worse and state "time to 100 EPA miles" and then people that don't know how Lithium battery charging work just do some incorrect mental math and think, only twice the wait to 200 miles or triple the wait to 300 EPA miles. :lol:

Back to the Ariya, so from what I'm reading on the specs, max charging power is 130 kW, so charging 10% SoC to 80% SoC is 35 minutes.
Same incorrect mental math

----
I had the same thought about people incorrectly extrapolating. A little table might help here:

Starting from 50 miles:
50 miles added
100 miles added
150 miles added
200 miles added
250 miles added
300 miles added

Each entry would disclose the kWh and time needed
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
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lorenfb
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:50 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:12 pm
What if Tesla goes to higher voltage charging like 800 volts? Will your tune change?
Porsche Taycan's 800-Volt Architecture Enables Slimmer Wiring, Faster Charging, Less Heat
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2890 ... rformance/

Which implies that at the original charging currents used on 400V BEVs, the charging times can be reduced by 50% for a 800V system
i.e. the charging power has been doubled.

https://insideevs.com/features/427039/8 ... -industry/
Batteries are going to keep increasing in capacity, though, and even at our current rates of very fast charging, we will end up having to wait an hour or more for a big battery EV to be full. Porsche has an answer to that, a technical aspect that makes its Taycan EV unique - whereas most EVs have a 400V electric system, the Taycan runs on 800V.

If you don’t know what that entails, well, it basically means you can charge it at way higher rates. For example, 400V EVs can be charged at around 150 kW, but there are already even faster 800V chargers out there that can pump juice back into a battery pack at a rate of 350 kW.

Porsche says its Taycan can be charged from 5 to 80 percent in exactly 22.5 minutes, although it doesn’t quite reach 350 kW, even when using an 800V charger; its maximum charging capacity peaks at 270 kW (it’s closer to 250 kW most of the time) and between 50 and 150 kW from a 400V station. At 150 kW, the Taycan battery’s state of charge is brought up from 20 to 80 percent in a little over 20 minutes.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a3 ... a-model-s/
But Porsche claims a new record maximum charging rate on its new Taycan, a whopping 270 kW when using Electrify America's latest DC fast chargers, which are capable of pumping electricity at up to 350 kW. That's more than double the mainstream 150-kW Tesla Superchargers, although V3 units are rolling out, which raise the peak to 250 kW (the maximum the Model S can accept, however, is 200 kW).
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knightmb
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:32 pm

An 800V DC fast charger could still charge a 350V, 360V, or 375V battery. Nissan is using 500V to charge their 360V battery with CHAdeMO. How much voltage is actually needed to charge an 800V battery? 1000V?

I thought the limitation on charging was the battery chemistry in terms of power not the voltage? If you feed 1000V @ 50A into any of those batteries, they will all charge at the same rate of 50 kW per second. I understand using higher voltage to reduce the size of wires in the electrical system of the EV for both driving and charging, but how does that exclude the higher voltage charging for the lower voltage batteries?
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Re: Nissan Ariya to be announced for the JDM July 15, 2020

Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:28 pm

I give up. The median human brain is not equipped to understand the difference between power and energy. Does anyone talk about gallon-hours? Heck no.

Forget kilowatt-hours and kilowatts. Let's just talk in terms of horsepower and and miles.
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