1BOG?

[Jimmydreams]

After rebates it is $24,132 - so $3.5/W.

That's the ball-park I envisaged for a system of similar size after all the rebates and tax credits. Is that realistic?

Edit: I didn't see Jimmy's breakdown of the costs. I guess it might well be.

Do you guys still get $ rebates in CA ? Or is it all IOUs :lol:

Actually, I just received my rebate check for May's production: $374.68. That's the CSI rebate, not something from SDG&E.

 

[mwalsh]

It looks like the details have started to trickle out about 1BOG's program in my area. I'm not sure they're supposed to be out, I mean I only got an email from them that they were going to be having one, but I am pretty good with the ol' Google.

http://solarorangecounty.1bog.org/orange-county-solar-panel-cost/
http://solarorangecounty.1bog.org/solar-adder-costs/
http://solarorangecounty.1bog.org/orange-county-solar-rebates-and-tax-credits/

It looks like the per watt cost is going to be $5.44 and their vendor is going to be Heliopower (http://www.heliopower.com/). Price is before the 30% Federal tax credits and CSI rebate. Heliopower looks like they've done a ton of home PV installs - they've got a 150 install gallery on their web site. Even if I get them out to quote me, I'm still going to look at alternatives.

 

[Bicster]

Is solar ever going to become cost-effective enough that it can succeed without incentives? I'm honestly not trolling here. I want to put solar on my roof, but there are no local or state incentives here and the numbers just don't add up. I might get a payback in 20 years but by then the system might need replacing... I don't think I've ever seen a rooftop solar installation in Houston.

Yesterday I was reading about micro-inverters. Seems like great stuff... But the panels haven't been getting much cheaper or better, have they?

I'm hoping for viability to come through cost reductions and technology improvements, not skyrocketing grid electricity prices.

I'd normally be interested in a partially-DIY install but only crazy people will get on my roof. It has a 45 degree pitch and is about 25' off the ground at the lowest spot... There's no way I will get up there myself.

 

[Carlos]

I've found that the recent residential solar push is taking place in solar friendly places.
Not that Houston isn't solar friendly but I do believe you are in the great state of Texas and known for oil?

I can only speak locally here in Arizona but our two Phoenix utilities have a mandated plan to derive upwards of 25% of future energy from renewable sources by a certain date. The utilities offer a rebate pool, but really are just a branch on the incentive tree of State and Federal incentives/rebates.

Eventually the cost for the solar hardware may come down but I'm guessing that since it's in relative infancy as a major energy source we will see incentives and the high cost of ownership continue. Solar energy enthusiasts are a minority and an even smaller number take the next step of placing a solar power facility on their roof.

Everyone has a point of commitment which may be based on economics, engineering or social measures.

 

[mwalsh]

I've started to line up some appointments - 1BOG/Heliopower are coming next Friday in the morning; XXXX XXXXXX are coming on the Friday afternoon; and then the folks doing the EVSE assessment for Aerovironment also do solar, so they are going to give me a quote as well.

 

[mwalsh]

I could do with some advice from current Edison customers before the PV salespeople start to show up on Friday, if you don't mind....

What does Edison pay for what you put back on the grid during peak hours?
Are you still on standard domestic rates? Do you intend to stay that way or move to whole house TOU/dedicated EV TOU) when you get your Leaf?

 

[philaphonic]

Is solar ever going to become cost-effective enough that it can succeed without incentives? I'm honestly not trolling here. I want to put solar on my roof, but there are no local or state incentives here and the numbers just don't add up. I might get a payback in 20 years but by then the system might need replacing... I don't think I've ever seen a rooftop solar installation in Houston.

Yesterday I was reading about micro-inverters. Seems like great stuff... But the panels haven't been getting much cheaper or better, have they?

I'm hoping for viability to come through cost reductions and technology improvements, not skyrocketing grid electricity prices.

I'd normally be interested in a partially-DIY install but only crazy people will get on my roof. It has a 45 degree pitch and is about 25' off the ground at the lowest spot... There's no way I will get up there myself.

Hi Bicster,

You're in Houston, I see. Was wondering if you went to the "Solar Panels in Houston" program at the city's Code Enforcement Building last week. My GF and I were there, found it reasonably informative. I was most encouraged by the enthusiasm both company speakers (from Standard Renewable and Alternative Power Solutions) had for installing micro inverters.

 

[Bicster]

You're in Houston, I see. Was wondering if you went to the "Solar Panels in Houston" program at the city's Code Enforcement Building last week. My GF and I were there, found it reasonably informative. I was most encouraged by the enthusiasm both company speakers (from Standard Renewable and Alternative Power Solutions) had for installing micro inverters.

I didn't know about that. I'm sorry I missed it!

 

[mitch672]

I am more and more convinced that Microinverters are the way to go, you can start with a small # of panels and keep expanding it, and the wiring is very simple, and no High Voltage Dc wiring needed. up to 14-15 panels per 15A 2-pole circuit as I remember it... much simpler to wire, simpler to expand, and also no "single" point of failure with 1 or 2 main inverters.. also has benifets if you have some shading, as you only lose output on the affected panel(s) not the entire string.

 

[philaphonic]

I didn't know about that. I'm sorry I missed it!

Well, it was way overbooked, with twice as many RSVPs as available seats. So maybe they'll have another one. Some other info I came away with: expect the cost of an installed residential system to be about $5.50 per watt; and there's a rumor that Centerpoint will start some sort of financial incentive in 2011 for installing solar panels. Anyway, they have a variety of dispalys in their lobby promoting green construction / renovation (inclding solar), plus you can ask a gentleman there for free advice and guidance. If you ever gat the chance, I do recommend paying them a visit.

 

[mwalsh]

I am more and more convinced that Microinverters are the way to go, you can start with a small # of panels and keep expanding it,

But the way our utility rebate works, you only get a rebate on an entire system as installed. You get nothing for add-on's to an existing system.

BTW, what are the thoughts of Microinverters vs. a regular inverter, particularly when it comes to cost, reliability, and adding complexity to the system? One of the companies responding seems pretty keen on selling me those over a standard inverter.

 

[garygid]

What efficiency do the Micro-verters have?

One big high-quality 7kW inverter from SMA SunnyBoy, vs 33 MVs, which cost more.

I went with the one world-reputation SB inverted, but the MVs, from what I could see two years ago, did not have much of a track record to evaluate.

Now, the MVs might be much better, but ... my 7kW inverter is still working fine after 17 months.

 

[DaveEV]

BTW, what are the thoughts of Microinverters vs. a regular inverter, particularly when it comes to cost, reliability, and adding complexity to the system? One of the companies responding seems pretty keen on selling me those over a standard inverter.

Cost: Regular central inverter is cheaper. Enphase micro-inverters cost about $1/watt, central inverters can cut that cost in half.

Reliability: Enphase has a standard 15-year warranty - others have a 10-year warranty standard (though I note that SMA will let you pay extra for an extended warranty). Some say that because now you have more inverters, the chance of failure is higher. Some don't like the fact that electrolytic caps are used since they will eventually fail. Enphase is obviously comfortable enough to offer a 15-year warranty and has a number of white-papers bragging about MTBF. Benefit of a micro-inverter failure is that a failure won't bring down your entire array, just the one panel which in theory, combined with the high MTBF should result in higher overall uptime.

Complexity: It is slightly more labor intensive to install the Enphase micro-inverters as it is an additional component you have to rack up.

As mitch672 said, benefits are no high voltage DC wiring which can be more prone to issues than lower voltage AC wiring, if you have any shading issues, the micro-inverters will maximize output and there is no single point of failure with the inverters. Enphase also has "twin-pack" inverters which ties two inverters into one package which reduces labor cost (half as many inverters to install) and lets you string a few more panels on per string (up to 20 vs 15).

Having self-installed my own PV system with micro-inverters I would not hesitate to use them again.

I hear that the next generation of inverters that Enphase are working on will further reduce the size (size of a cell-phone, ideally integrated into the panel to avoid additional labor install costs), cost (to be more competitive with standard inverters) and eliminate the electrolytic caps that many worry about failing, but who knows when that will be ready for production as all we know about the next generation are rumors!

 

[mitch672]

What efficiency do the Micro-verters have?

One big high-quality 7kW inverter from SMA SunnyBoy, vs 33 MVs, which cost more.

I went with the one world-reputation SB inverted, but the MVs, from what I could see two years ago, did not have much of a track record to evaluate.

Now, the MVs might be much better, but ... my 7kW inverter is still working fine after 17 months.

how does %95 efficient grab ya?

Efficiency
Peak Inverter Efficiency: 95.5%
CEC Weighted Efficiency: 95.0%
Nominal MPP Tracking: 99.6%

http://www.affordable-solar.com/enphase-m190-72-240-s01.htm

Costs maybe %15-%20 more, but has built in redundancy, and the system can be expanded as well.
I will never use a single inverter, not with this technology available...

 

[mwalsh]

The company coming out tomorrow I'm already a bit concerned with - they insinuated the CSI initiative was based on current electricity usage where I definitely need it to be on anticipated usage. I can't find anything on the CSI website that indicates the rebate is based on anything other than estimated system performance, so that will be something I need them to clarify before I take them seriously.

I sorted the issue out with the company who visited me on Saturday. Of course it was their pre-screener who didn't know his arse from his elbow.

One interesting nugget to come out of this particular visit....the guy said that after the beginning of next year, the utilities are going to be paying for all excess generation, not just generation that would zero out your yearly utility bill. This is the first I've heard of this. Does anyone here know anything more about it?

Edit: Looks like this is it....AB920:

http://www.sce.com/customergeneration/nem-ab920.htm

 

[DaveEV]

One interesting nugget to come out of this particular visit....the guy said that after the beginning of next year, the utilities are going to be paying for all excess generation, not just generation that would zero out your yearly utility bill. This is the first I've heard of this. Does anyone here know anything more about it?

That's about it. The rate that will be paid for excess generation has not yet been set.

 

[mwalsh]

One interesting nugget to come out of this particular visit....the guy said that after the beginning of next year, the utilities are going to be paying for all excess generation, not just generation that would zero out your yearly utility bill. This is the first I've heard of this. Does anyone here know anything more about it?

That's about it. The rate that will be paid for excess generation has not yet been set.

NICE!

Oh, by the way....another really cool nugget to come out of this visit....Addison Avenue FCU has partnered with Sunpower (who sent my lead to this particular dealer) to provide loans for solar systems. I just called Addison to get the details and, while your chosen vendor HAS to be a Sunpower dealer, you don't necessarily have to be buying a Sunpower based system!

https://addisonavenue.com/solar/

 

[mwalsh]

So I've been crunching some numbers the last few days. A ~6kwh system should cover all our home and Leaf charging needs, maybe with bit to spare every now and then.

Buying a system like that, along with a Leaf (and the EVSE) will save us something like $900-$1000 a month for the first 36 months or so (tax credits and energy/fuel savings) and then ~$300 a month beyond (energy/fuel savings only). Those numbers assuming the cost of energy/fuel as of today. The possibility even exists for a few more $$$ on top of those savings, if we have excess that we're reimbursed by the utility for come next year!

 

[Jimmydreams]

So I've been crunching some numbers the last few days. A ~6kwh system should cover all our home and Leaf charging needs, maybe with bit to spare every now and then.

Buying a system like that, along with a Leaf (and the EVSE) will save us something like $900-$1000 a month for the first 36 months or so (tax credits and energy/fuel savings) and then ~$300 a month beyond (energy/fuel savings only). Those numbers assuming the cost of energy/fuel as of today. The possibility even exists for a few more $$$ on top of those savings, if we have excess that we're reimbursed by the utility for come next year!

Outstanding! I'm saving about $200-$250/mo now in electric costs through my PV system. It generates a surplus so that means either A) a check at the end of the year or B) most if not all of my Leaf charging will be free. That would save another $150/mo in gas costs. These are real numbers. PLUS, the PV solar added about $40K to the appraisal on my home.

I couldn't be happier. (well, I COULD, but the Leaf would have to get 500 miles per charge and be free. )

 

[mwalsh]

I'm still a little foggy about if we actually need a ~6kwh system when you consider us putting energy back on the grid at peak-hour TOU rates and taking most of it off under off-peak TOU rates. I'm given to think that we really only need a system that's ~5kwh under those circumstances, but none of the salesmen thus far has been astute enough offer an opinion on that. I would hate to under size my system and find out that I wasn't generating enough, especially since we would be getting payed for any excess from next year.