Adding a Brusa charger under the hood for '11/'12s

[davewill]

That's interesting to know.. so it'll put out full power even on a sagging 208/201v line. Must be the Leaf's OBC then that cannot keep up or is derated.

Because when I was at down there for Tony's event, I could only push 14-15amps MAX. On 240 I push 17-18 constant no problem.

14a*390v=5460watts

18a*390v=7020watts :mrgreen:

sooo much difference...especially when sitting in a parking lot late at night waiting :shock:

I would imagine Victor's statement assumes that the EVSE's limit doesn't come into play The pilot limits AMPS not watts. What was the pilot on Tony's EVSE set to?

30a*199v = 5970 watts
30a*240v = 7200 watts

A 30a pilot would track pretty close to your experience, no?

 

[JasonA]

The pilot limits AMPS not watts. What was the pilot on Tony's EVSE set to?

True but you get the watts from both the volts and AMPS you're allowed to pull.

Greg programed his unit to read and show ampacity or the PILOT on the Brusa screen as I've shown on my many UT vids. Every public place I've gone to so far are 30/32amp EVSE's. I've heard of Blink's that are "dialed" down but I've visited a few now this week and they are still cranked up.

The issue is the source voltage. They are either on 208v/3ph source or a crappy 208/120 1ph source that sags big time.

For example... Nissan's Mossy Oceanside AV-EVSE's show 201 and under load goto 199v or so... :roll:
SJC Weseloh Nissan had 212v and didn't sag under full load.. Tustin Nissan had 208v that fluxed around..

Tustin Toyota has a killer 70a unit for their Rav's that 210v..

YMMV but again, I've been to many Metrolink stations and they are 240v!! Hell Yeah!! :mrgreen:

Ohh.. and when I got to Tony's.. I used my EVSE upgrade and started on 20a (sorry Phil :lol but it got REALLY HOT!! and thermally shut down?? and went into 120v mode!!

Maybe Phil can chime in here.. but as it cooled it would only charge in 120v mode even as I unplugged and plugged back in the Leaf.. tons of people there watched and saw it and the amps on the Greg's unit.

Only until I powered off the EVSE and back on did it pass 240v through.. and I pushed 18a.. I also tried another OpenEVSE there.. Kinda smoked it!! :shock:

Sorry buddy! it was a good test and thanks for trying!

 

[metricmind]

Jason and Jeremy,

As of BRUSA NLG513 efficiency:
I have to measure actual efficiency at different conditions. I believe (not sure) 0.93 is the
best case (>220VAC input and cold charger), the 0.85 would be the worst (120VAC,
near thermal limit). So it may not be as bad, but still a lot (hundreds of watts) of heat.

As far as CP of an EVSE: yes, it knows about / dials only amps. Yes, power is amps x volts,
but number of Watts is consequential - Watts are not regulated by EVSE as one can't
regulate volts. EVSE limits amps and charger computes how many amps to limit itself to
(and commands that to the EVSE) to to maintain its own desired watts.

...

Today I decided to install the third ans last water cooled NLG513 on the rack.
For those thinking about water cooled units under the trunk floor this might give you
a clue what you might expect it to look like (in case of 3 units, but of course you can
install fewer):

http://www.metricmind.com/leaf/images/112.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.metricmind.com/leaf/images/113.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.metricmind.com/leaf/images/114.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In theory the set up with stock brick suppose to pull 3x16A + 11.2A (stock brick from 120VAC)
or 59.2A total from the mains, and give me at least 11.2kW charging power. Well, it did 12kW:

http://www.metricmind.com/leaf/images/115.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's because each NLG513 actually generates more than 3.3kW of charging power.

(The meter reads power 1.2kW higher, the blog explains why, but Amps reading is accurate).
Well, now I discovered unexpected hurdle I got to take care of: the AC feed in the house
to the 240VAC outlet is using gauge 12 wire. When my Leaf is sucking juice full bore, at 60A
wiring gets hot, I mean hazardously hot . Now I got to upgrade that to at least gauge 8 wire.

But I can tell, now watching my Leaf gaining 1 mile of range for every minute of charging is a lot
of fun! I want to see now how your installation under hood AND on the back will turn out...

Victor

 

[metricmind]

To all potential BRUSA NLG513 users: below is updated information regarding charger
efficiency. In one of my previous posts I supplied inaccurate numbers by error. Good news
is the chargers are 2x better than I presented them (efficiency wise, just 7% losses,
not 15%)! It is important to set this record straight.
This info below is accurate as it came from one of engineers at BRUSA. Here it is verbatim:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The charger has a current limit of 16A on AC-side, no matter what the voltage,
and a “natural input resistance” of approx 13 ohms.
At 208VAC and more, [the NLG513] will draw 16A. So:

- above approx 220VAC you will have >3.5kW input and therefore some 3.3kW output.
- at 208VAC you will have 208V x 16A = 3.3kW input and approx 3.1kW output
- at 190VAC you will have 190V x 14.6A = 2.8kW input and approx. 2.6kW output
- and so on

“Typical” efficiency of an NLG513 (at 300…500VDC, 1…3.3kW output) is 93%,
only in low power or very low voltage operation it can sag below 90%
It will never produce more than approx 350W of heat, worst case.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

So here you have it.
In short, it is safe to assume ~93% efficiency for >208VAC input and it will decline
toward 90% for 120VAC input voltage or low power output.

Victor

 

[TonyWilliams]

Your installation seems to put all the cooling in series to the same system as the original OBC. Aren't you a tad bit worried what the temperature of the last charger is at? Are you worried how this might work while charging at 120F in Phoenix?

The bottom line is that I doubt Nissan overbuilt the charging cooling system to handle everything you've added.

What are the two blue and one black AC inputs? Where do they go, and how are they hooked to the "shoreline"?

Everything looks clean and tidy, otherwise. I'm not so keen of all the dirt that will collect back there to make those not look so nice!

 

[JasonA]

He has the complete build listed here..
http://www.metricmind.com/leaf/main.htm

As far as cooling capacity goes, I don't think the Leaf has an issue with this as even the main fan doesn't come on even on the 2013's barely in 100* heat...

There's plenty of cooling headroom but Victor could answer it best.. he doesn't appear to be having issues!!

Now there's a nice price break coming up on the Brusa's!!

Yippee!!

 

[metricmind]

There is absolutely no issues with liquid cooling. As you know water (or coolant) has very large thermal reserve and the temp of moving water is nearly the same along the path if it moves fast enough. I monitored temperatures of power stage of all chargers running at full bore, each next one in the loop had it ~2'C higher than the previous one - if I recall something like 34'C, 36'C and 39'C (22'C ambient outside), i.e. at about human body temp. I ran this test for about 5-6 min as my AC Feed is too thin and gets too hot quickly (working on this ), but the chargers' temp was stable by then. Remember, the water pump, radiator and other hardware is sized to cool traction inverter AND motor combined while you drive, which wastes FAR more watts (at least 10 times more) than all 3 NLG513 combined. Cooling system does not even wake up. In other words, if you can drive in Arizona, you certainly can charge in Arizona. Expect chargers to be about 12'C above ambient, and the power stage will start de-rating at 60'C coolant temp. That is 48'C (118'F) ambient, I don't think you'll be going outside at that temp . OHOH, air cooled chargers will have tougher time - I noticed the difference between power stage temp and ambient air about 15'C, but the de-rating starts at 40'C air (104'F). It's not uncommon in Arizona, but the main problem is the charger is under shut hood where it is certainly above 104'F even on a modestly hot day. Air cooled solution is OK for mild climates. I mean, chargers will run, but you will not get full power on hot days.

The black cable on the photo is AC input from the mains, it is routed above the battery and connected directly to the twist lock inlet upfront next to the stock J1772 one. Wire gauge is AWG8. The thick blue cable is DC output to the battery, also AWG8, it combines all three paralleled outputs from each NLG513 inside junction box. Thinner blue cable is controls, it splits in two signal harnesses above the floor (no I didn't frill holes, there is stock feed through there), one harness goes to the AC current sensor, one up front to run status indicating LEDs and take input from the power adjustment knob.

Victor

 

[JasonA]

Here is the updated pricing that's also in the buy thread...

The NLG513 air cooled:
1-4 $2,383 each + 270 cables = $2,653
5-9 $1,945 each + 270 cables = $2,215
10-24 $1,881 each + 270 cables = $2,151

Water cooled:
1-4 $2,526 each + 270 cables = $2,796
5-9 $2,100 each + 270 cables = $2,370
10-24 $2,023 each + 270 cables = $2,293

Pretty good deal guys!

 

[JeremyW]

Pulled 13.49 kWh in 1 hour and 58 minutes from a 208v chargepoint station today. I was being naughty and pulled 32 amps when the pilot was saying 30. Shh don't tell anyone and don't do that yourself! :twisted: Was surprised that the Brusa didn't hit any thermal limit. The heat wave is starting to turn in the area thankfully but ambient was still about 85 degrees with a light breeze.

The charge cost $45 in Kohl's merchandise.

 

[KillaWhat]

I was being naughty and pulled 32 amps when the pilot was saying 30. Shh don't tell anyone and don't do that yourself!

Are you using Can control or auto mode?
The DD or something else?
Thanks

 

[JasonA]

I was being naughty and pulled 32 amps when the pilot was saying 30. Shh don't tell anyone and don't do that yourself!

Are you using Can control or auto mode?
The DD or something else?
Thanks

Everything is CAN now. Here's a link to the UT vid for Jeremy's... (pg 31) - CAN is pulled now right up front! no more firewall runs!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y49qvtREu1c&feature=youtu.be

I think that most CP's are off because in Burbank on Firday night when I plugged in at the movie theater, it also showed 30a on Greg's unit. When Greg programed the ampacity or PILOT signal part.. he did it with my Siemens Versicharge as the test...

It shows correctly... Well I just finished my BEAST of an OpenEVSE and when I set it to 35a rate.. Greg's unit shows 35a

Blink & CP are off abit :lol:

 

[JeremyW]

I think chargepoints are only rated for 30A, so the pilot is correct.

Yup, CAN all the way. I have one of the prototype Leaf DD "XL" like Jason has but Greg has said to me that the code can be ported to the production Leaf DD that he's selling, just not enabled at the moment. Greg could probably sell you one of the prototypes if you are interested.

You gotta get yours installed KillaWhat! Once you see a full charge in 3 hours there's no looking back!

 

[pchilds]

Chargepoints shutdown in 3 minutes at 36 amps. I pulled 39.5 amps from a CS-40.

 

[metricmind]

Jason,

I've seen your comment on another thread (I think it was CAN bus thread, but can't find it anymore) about alloeing balancibg at the end of charge by slowing down charging rate, you mentioned you wish it could be done with BRUSA charger (s). Well, it's actually trivial to do if you need: just connect a 4k pot to the analog current control input ( pins 8 and 23) and you can manually adjust current from maximum to zero. Very handy.
Moreover, since charger's logic power ground is normally vehicle's chassis, it's common for multiple chargers, and so is analog input. In my setup I can adjust mains current (and so the battery current) from 50A down to zero with a single pot.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Jason,

I've seen your comment on another thread (I think it was CAN bus thread, but can't find it anymore) about alloeing balancibg at the end of charge by slowing down charging rate, you mentioned you wish it could be done with BRUSA charger (s). Well, it's actually trivial to do if you need: just connect a 4k pot to the analog current control input ( pins 8 and 23) and you can manually adjust current from maximum to zero. Very handy.
Moreover, since charger's logic power ground is normally vehicle's chassis, it's common for multiple chargers, and so is analog input. In my setup I can adjust mains current (and so the battery current) from 50A down to zero with a single pot.

So, if the Brusa is reaching the top of the battery charge, and the onboard 3.3kW charger starts ramping down the amps, what will the Brusa do if I have is controlled with pins 8 and 23?

 

[metricmind]

Analog control is additional means to control the charger externally (Other than CAN or loaded charging profile). In this set up BRUSA NLG513 knows nothing about another (Nichicon) charger and will not do anything when Nichicon ramps down, unless you tell BRUSA to do something. If you want NLG513 to gradually ramp down charging current simultaneously with stock Nichicon but don't want to use CAN control (basically mirror what Nichicon does but double the power), you can monitor stock charging current (or mains current) and control a digipot connected to these analog inputs, so the NLG513 will just follow the stock charger.

The NLG513 is very flexible how you can control it, but as with any charger it's up to you to tell it what do you want it to do.

 

[Ingineer]

I used my EVSE upgrade and started on 20a (sorry Phil :lol but it got REALLY HOT!! and thermally shut down?? and went into 120v mode!!

Maybe Phil can chime in here.. but as it cooled it would only charge in 120v mode even as I unplugged and plugged back in the Leaf.. tons of people there watched and saw it and the amps on the Greg's unit.

There is no precedent for this. We have thousands of customers charging their 2013's daily at 20A in the US, and many in the EU running 25A on essentially the same hardware. The switch from 120v to 240v mode has nothing to do with thermal considerations. This likely indicates a bad outlet or bad wiring feeding the EVSE. (Such as an intermittent ground)

It sounds like you might have been drawing well over 20A if you "overheated" anything.

You mention it was a "good test", but I have a hard time believing this since you clearly have an axe to grind with me for some reason.

-Phil

 

[JasonA]

Well such as it is... everybody there saw it.. everybody there FELT IT and it was hot. The whole brick. We could not figure why so little amps were flowing until we saw on Greg's display it was only reading 120v :roll:

A power reset fixed that but after kept it lower to get charged up.

And I've modified my OpenEVSE and redid the code/FW to my liking.. and it's a dual J-plug/70a design (for the secret project ) but there's nothing wrong with the wiring on my setup. Remember I have a fully grounded/properly hooked up Brusa and I've never tripped a GFCI unit even on 120/20a.

Funny how I pull 20+ amps off 16a EVSE's at people's homes and commercial setups... never an issue. NEVER ONCE!

I've been solid since the day the unit has been setup (well minus the heat :lol

Don't know Phil.. but there were TONS of witnesses at Tony's party..

Just stating what happened..

EDIT: Isn't the 2013 Brick a different design/HW inside?

 

[Ingineer]

Both the Gen1 and Gen2 Panasonic EVSE's (2011/12 and 2013) are capable of 20A and will not get hot. If your unit is overheating at 20A, then it's clearly defective.

Given how many units we have out there, I bet there are more people here on the forum with one of our units than without, and any one of them will tell you they don't overheat.

The EVSE absolutely cannot output 120V when it's taking in 240V, so something is fishy here. What it does do is detect when it's only being powered on 120v so it can send a different pilot (typically 12A, but programmable).

-Phil

 

[Goodtohave]

How does adding the Brusa to a 2012 compare to a 2013 with the 6.6?

Searched for info but with 34 pages it is a lot of searching....

Thx!