Adding a Brusa charger under the hood for '11/'12s

[EVDRIVER]

No one should be forced to participate in open and free sharing of knowledge, and everyone has the right to sell a product and not provide information on how they make it, but I think we should encourage sharing here. That's what forums like these are all about.

Instead, it seems members tend to discourage any open sharing where such knowledge would cut into the potential profits of certain respected members here. I saw similar discouragement when someone wanted to post how to upgrade the stock EVSE to L2, and I was kind of puzzled why people wouldn't want this info out there.

So yeah, don't expect someone to cut into their own profits (or future profits) by releasing certain info. But at the same time, we shouldn't discourage others from sharing what they know simply because a closed-source commercial product exists.

That is all good when it is safe and not irresponsible, the ebay thing does not fall into the responsible bucket IMO. What happens when people encourage others to do projects outside their skill level on dangerous voltages and something bad happens? What does this do to the entire EV community? To that persons safely?

To counter your point, Phil has given Chris at OpenEVSE much help and assistance with his project at no cost and with no return to him. Few companies would ever do that. In fact he helps people with competing products that are having issues. I don't see AV or Blink doing that with the taxpayer money

 

[JeremyW]

If Phil is looking to make a possible charger kit does anyone expect him to give step by step directions? Some common sense and courtesy would be appropriate here.

I completly understand if Phil does not want to post here. I already feel like I've gotten some good data from him on this.

This project reminds me a long time ago of when everyone understated how long it took and cost to do an EV conversion and then a guy posted all his ACTUAL time records and parts costs. I expect some white lies on this project about the actual time and cost to do this.

I intend to make everything as transparent as possible. This is not a cheap or easy project. I think that those who are going for it know this. Frankly it would be more cost effective for me to work some over time and pay Phil. But it isn't as fun, or challenging.

I am surprised people are buying chargers before they have the complete strategy for implementation. I also hope that anyone that attempts this is very experienced in HV work and very skilled because one can easily damage some very expensive parts doing this, not to mention get hurt. This is not 240V.

I've worked with HV before. I know the safety hazards. I know the risks. I bought the charger when I did because I got a pretty good deal on it. I've seen this implemented and I know what's possible. There's things I know that need to be accomplished before it will work. I don't intend to make a kit or money off of this. I just want to see other skilled people like myself succeed in upgrading our cars.

 

[kubel]

That is all good when it is safe and not irresponsible.

What do you propose if it is potentially unsafe? For example, if someone wants to post instructions on how to do a brake job on CrownVic.net- assuming the advice isn't bad, what's the problem with posting how to do it? Do we discourage it because of the possibility that some idiot might put grease on the pads or rotor surface?

Do you see any problem with the OpenEVSE project on the basis of being potentially unsafe? I don't.

Put up a disclaimer and all is well. Discouraging it because someone else who is more qualified sells the product is not consistent with the open culture of forums like these.

 

[davewill]

... That is all good when it is safe and not irresponsible, the ebay thing does not fall into the responsible bucket IMO. What happens when people encourage others to do projects outside their skill level on dangerous voltages and something bad happens? What does this do to the entire EV community? To that persons safely? ...

So why didn't you simply post a warning about being careful with those dangerous voltages? Instead you came in here with your feathers in a ruffle about making you and Phil uncomfortable because people dared mention his name. No one was actually criticizing him. I feel like you are using your position as a moderator and your inside relationship with Phil to bully the people in this thread into going away and it's very uncomfortable.

 

[EVDRIVER]

... That is all good when it is safe and not irresponsible, the ebay thing does not fall into the responsible bucket IMO. What happens when people encourage others to do projects outside their skill level on dangerous voltages and something bad happens? What does this do to the entire EV community? To that persons safely? ...

So why didn't you simply post a warning about being careful with those dangerous voltages? Instead you came in here with your feathers in a ruffle about making you and Phil uncomfortable because people dared mention his name. No one was actually criticizing him. I feel like you are using your position as a moderator and your inside relationship with Phil to bully the people in this thread into going away and it's very uncomfortable.

Dave, I have defend everyones right here to post what they want and not be heavy handed and suppress views, that is a fact. I have NEVER deleted posts that are not spam and I wont. I get so many spam requests that are not spam and all about blocking users opinions, I have even defended your opinion when others have complained. You would be surprised about the requests I get Let's not make this into a big deal like so many silly topics on the forum. If you have an issue then send me a PM.

Warning: Any work on an EV HV system is extremely dangerous. Pack voltages can easily kill you. Dropping a simple tool in the wrong place can be a disaster. If you are not trained to work on HV systems then don't even if someone says it is simple. HIre a professional to do the work.

Warning over The sky is not falling yet.

 

[davewill]

Dave, I have defend everyones right here to post ... HIre a professional to do the work.

Warning over The sky is not falling yet.

Well said. Personally, I wouldn't dream of doing this. I know I'm a software guy, and I have smoked many a prototype board (and that's low-voltage stuff). I don't want to be the one smoking. But I am very interested in the details of how this effort works out.

 

[marcucci]

The 2012 charger is under $2k. The design of the 2013 is very different and integrated into the inverter, it is not a separate unit like the 2011-2012.

Thanks- I need to do more research. I'm still confused about the 2012's architecture, or at least why some of the functions are separated. In my world we use one unit that goes from AC/DC and it provides the charging functions as well. I'm not sure exactly how it is all split up in the LEAF.

I wish Phil or whoever wants to make a commercial product well. There is certainly a market (small, but a market) to sell this to. I am interested if I can't figure it out myself.

wrt the safety aspect, it cannot be underestimated. The pack is capable of energy levels that can weld aluminum to steel. Fingers, hands, arms, and internal organs are of no consequence to it and make surprisingly good conduction paths. Tools are the least of your worries. If you are working on an EV you better have the right PPE and understand the safety protocols before you go opening up stuff. As EVDRIVER already mentioned, this makes 220VAC look like childs play. At least you have a relatively fast acting breaker there.

 

[EVDRIVER]

The 2012 charger is under $2k. The design of the 2013 is very different and integrated into the inverter, it is not a separate unit like the 2011-2012.

Thanks- I need to do more research. I'm still confused about the 2012's architecture, or at least why some of the functions are separated. In my world we use one unit that goes from AC/DC and it provides the charging functions as well. I'm not sure exactly how it is all split up in the LEAF.

I wish Phil or whoever wants to make a commercial product well. There is certainly a market (small, but a market) to sell this to. I am interested if I can't figure it out myself.

wrt the safety aspect, it cannot be underestimated. The pack is capable of energy levels that can weld aluminum to steel. Fingers, hands, arms, and internal organs are of no consequence to it and make surprisingly good conduction paths. Tools are the least of your worries. If you are working on an EV you better have the right PPE and understand the safety protocols before you go opening up stuff. As EVDRIVER already mentioned, this makes 220VAC look like childs play. At least you have a relatively fast acting breaker there.

I have felt 260 DC on my body and no way do I need 400. I also have a few very thick steel tools that are severed in half. Even when you are safe accidents can happen.

 

[KillaWhat]

Doesn't anyone know Phil well enough to pursued him to give us the benefit of his considerable wisdom?
(Or.... Get him drunk and convince him to spill? I'll chip in for the drinks)

Wow.

I posted this pretty innocently, and I'm sorry if I kicked a hornet’s nest. I’m not sure why things are so stirred up.

I logged on here, saw 2 new pages were added, and got excited that this project was gaining steam, and couldn’t wait to see what was new.

This was not what I expected.

I’m not sure that “Phil is not talking” was even an accurate statement a ways back.
Phil has up until now chosen not to wade into this is probably more accurate.
I don’t think this particular discussion is going to help us convince him to do so.

I respect Phil's knowledge and advice on here. It has helped me many times.
I'm not, nor was I ever being critical of him in any way.
I'm an engineer, who is about to try to do something that another engineer has already done twice.

And the other engineer (Phil) knows a butt load more about this that I do.
I was just hoping not to have to reinvent the wheel.
I've been involved in a lot of projects in my 40+ years of engineering, and there are very few words more frustrating after you have spent lots of time and money trying to make something work than hearing...... "Yes, we spent two years trying to do it that way before we figured out if you just do ____, it solves the whole problem".

I purchased Phil's EVSE upgrade.
OF Course I Did.

He devoted time and effort to making it work, and probably discovered the best way to do it, and he did it at a reasonable price.
Again, why reinvent the wheel. I'm happy to pay him for that work and knowledge.

He has freely offered his advice and expertise on here on a wide range of subjects, and I am very grateful.
I'm sorry if I was naive. Again. I meant no criticism in any way.
I was looking at this as a bunch of "guys" (gender neutral) with a common "obsession" working together, cooperatively, sharing our work to take this as far as we can, and make it work the best that we can.

And yes, some of the posts on here are scary.
"I want to make my Schneider L2 EVSE a portable with a big honking dryer plug on it and 1000' of 14-2 home depot SJTO, what sort of electrical tape should I use?"

So; If you haven’t already done 10 or more projects more complicated, more involved, more potentially dangerous if you get stooopid or careless, then give this project a big pass.

I can do the high voltage stuff in my sleep.
I can, given a source of plugs and sockets create removable, reversible interface cables to attach the Brusa.
I can fabricate a mounting plate that looks like Nissan produced it, or even better.

However, I have never worked with a CAN buss, and cannot, with my current knowledge, interface the Nissan system with the Brusa.
That's not a situation I'm used to being in.

Good news is that there are people on here who can do THAT in their sleep, and do it every day. I thought that was the point of working together?

If I knew of a book I could read, or a class I could take, of conference I could attend where a panel would explain how to do this in detail, I’d jump on it.

If I knew Phil personally, I’d ask him to dinner, and seek his advice.
If he chose not to give it because he thought I would blow myself up, or because he didn’t want to give away knowledge that he might wish to use to make a profit, or because he just didn’t fricking want too, then so be it, and I respect that.

We are going to proceed with this project.
We are too far into it not to.
We would be better off, have a better experience, and in my opinion have a safer and higher quality result if Phil wishes to “help”.
The only reason anyone “expected” any help, is because of all the help he has freely offered in the past. Thank You.

I’d appreciate any help you wish to offer, either publically or PM.
If not, that's cool.
Sorry you got dragged into this in absentia.
(this was way too long; sorry again)

Now can we get back to talking about where I can get some interface plugs?

 

[EVDRIVER]

This forum is like a kids game of "telephone" at times. It's crazy how one small point get blown way out of proportion here and becomes something it never was. No one is telling anyone not to do anything and no one is saying people can't or are not competent to do this project. What next? Birds falling from the sky I'm interested to see what people come up with on this as there are some really smart people on this forum with quite a bit of talent!

 

[GregH]

Does anyone know where the (presumed) EV-CAN message is requesting power from the charger? I'd guess just looking for any number that is constant for the bulk of charge then decreases in the last 10 minutes would be it.. Once we know this it would be trivial to echo out the correct CAN messages on the same bus to talk to the Brusa to set power appropriately. Any OBD2 CAN sniffing device could do it.

 

[JeremyW]

I ordered cables from Metric Mind Corp. Unfortunatly EV Motor Verks wants to sell their cables with their chargers. They don't have much left, here's what Jack told me in an email:

We actually bought about 48 of the chargers and have 10 or 15 left. But we don't actually have enough cable sets for the chargers we have. Fortunately, most of hte purchasers make their own cables and we do include the pins and housings and all of that with each charger.

So that's the situation. Not much I can do about it as I can't get any more of the cables. In fact Brusa is discontinuing the charger in August 2013.

Back to the HV access conundrum, I took a look at the photos I posted in the OP and I agree with KillaWatt that Ingineer seems to be going through the inverter connection.

Looking at the picture of Phil's install, the HV output wiring dives right through the mounting plate by way of a gland and into the inverter area.

Compairing photos in the OP, it looks like that gland is right near where the HV wiring enters the inverter. Now, that's the way to do it without finding HV yazaki connectors. It's also kinda... :shock: I don't really want to be messing with high current connections. I'd prefer the DC/DC connector route.

Does anyone want to remove their top plate and take some pictures of the HV connection? I'm working these next few days.

Does anyone know where the (presumed) EV-CAN message is requesting power from the charger? I'd guess just looking for any number that is constant for the bulk of charge then decreases in the last 10 minutes would be it.. Once we know this it would be trivial to echo out the correct CAN messages on the same bus to talk to the Brusa to set power appropriately. Any OBD2 CAN sniffing device could do it.

Not that I know of but I'd love to work with you to find it!

 

[KillaWhat]

I have the 2 primary cable assemblies ordered, but was concerned that what I'm reading seems to indicate the 23 pin? "data" plug might be hard to come by?

This ampseal connector looks suspiciously like what we need, correct sex and all, for like $5?

We need a: 23-pole 1 piece AMPSEAL 770680-1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMPSEAL-AUTOMOTIVE-23-PIN-PLUG-CONNECTOR-AND-HEADER-ASSEMBLY-TYCO-ELECTRONICS-/200886641116?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item2ec5c6e1dc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is another one

http://www.newark.com/te-connectivity-amp/770680-1/plug-socket-housing-plug-23pos/dp/99F7604" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Am I crazy?
Don't answer that.

P.s. this looks like the boot?!

EDIT: The previous number was the boot for the 35 Pin connector.
This should be the correct boot. Had to actually call AMP.
Order 2. It's Halves.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/776464-1/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduixYzArTdk4dd9AR4TNG29SSxZ9kKFEXJo%3d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[KillaWhat]

This is just the shell, and I guess I cannot tell if its female after all.
It does not come with pins/ sockets.
However, it looks like we can get them inexpensively here.

http://www.surplussales.com/computeraccess/PinsPowerInterconnect.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Manual says we need:

23 pieces AMPSEAL 770854-1 crimp terminals

And here

http://www.newark.com/te-connectivity-amp/770854-1/contact-receptacle-20-16awg-crimp/dp/90B6762" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any thoughts.

 

[JeremyW]

Any thoughts?

Yeah, I way overpaid for my Ampseal connector. Metric Mind sells it as an "accessory" pack for $35. :shock: but at least it comes with pins and thermistors. Yay. :roll:

Don't overpay! Buy the housing, boot and pins. Looks like you'll save ~$15 there at least.

 

[hgoudey]

Does anyone want to remove their top plate and take some pictures of the HV connection? I'm working these next few days.

Here is an overview and closeup of the HV input under the cover.

The top PC board stands proud of the cover mounting plane. There is some room to lower it closer to the potted power electronics block, but it is quite tight and may require fabricating a new support bracket. I considered using standoffs to hang it from the new flat plate cover, but it would make assembly (plugging all the various connectors) very awkward. Also, while I'm no expert on the subject, it does seem prudent to have a "grounded" sheet metal plane between the power electronics and the upper PC board.

The large white connector on the PC board needs to be lowered at least 0.6" to get below the existing cover mounting plane. The other components on the board would fit if shifted down at least 0.35". The bottom of the PC board is about 0.65" above the potting of the power electronics, too tight to get a bottom bracket support and standoffs under it and still fit below the original cover mounting plane. There are several possible approaches to consider, and I haven't really followed any of them far enough to confirm viability. They might include a modified (lower) PC board mounting bracket in combination with machining a pocket in the new flat cover plate to accept protrusion above plane, and possibly a thicker interface gasket to gain a bit more height inside, as well. Shifting the card toward the DC input to get over the side of the power electronics block would allow deeper recess of the end of the card with the large white connector (this means the card is supported at a slight angle, making its custom bracket even more complicated, also the small pair of black wires on the right side constrain the motion and may have to be extended for this to work, the other cables appear to have enough freedom). Or, for the even more intrepid, perhaps changing out the entire large white connector/wiring connection to the card is an option.

After exploring the head room to the hood a bit, it looks like the easier approach is to retain the existing PC board bracket, lower its standoffs as much as possible (picking up about 0.15-0.2"?) and then shift the flat plate cover up as much as needed to cover the high points within a machined pocket over the card and connector leaving a thin wall in these locations. It looks like the bottom of the charger can be as much as 0.5" above the existing cover mounting plane to keep the charger under the plastic flange below the windshield, which allows the charger to be recessed as far back as possible. Projecting this height out 10" toward the downward curve of the hood, I was able to close the hood with some margin (worst case it appears the hood pad might touch or be compressed). The down side of this approach is that it is more material/machining intensive. The plate might have to be machined out of a 1/2" thick plate to use the stock PC board bracket, or maybe 1/4 - 3/8" if you modify the bracket. Clearly there may be a smarter approach that I am missing. Phil made it work with about 3/16" sheet and I don't think there was much of an additional spacer under that plate, but I didn't think to look at the time it was on display and the photos don't reveal that detail. Other thoughts?

Even though it is easy enough to transfer punch the bolt locations onto a new cover plate using the faux valve cover as a template, I took the opportunity with the cover off to measure all the bolt locations and I plan to draw up a CAD file to share the geometry with others that want it.

Howdy

 

[KillaWhat]

Do I spot the High Voltage connections we need to hook to there on the upper left?
The ones that look like battery terminal ends?
Anybody have enough knowledge to state that we are ok to hook to this point with the charger output?

Nice job with the pictures by the way.

Oh, and don't forget that "disconnect switch" in the "hump" of the back seat.
I'm going to pull that and meter everything before I even pull the cover off.

A though, having not looked under here myself yet.
Is it out of the question to remove the metal support bracket, and do something like industrial foam tape (Industrial Velcro?) the board to the potted electronics area?

It's got plugs on 3 sides sort of keeping it centered.

Just a thought.

 

[JeremyW]

Thank you for those nice photos Howdy, and excellent analysis as well!

Phil made it work with about 3/16" sheet and I don't think there was much of an additional spacer under that plate, but I didn't think to look at the time it was on display and the photos don't reveal that detail. Other thoughts?

It's been a while since I talked to Phil about his installation but I guess the 3/16" sheet fooled me. I figured there would be more room under there.

Is it out of the question to remove the metal support bracket, and do something like industrial foam tape (Industrial Velcro?) the board to the potted electronics area?

I'd bet a pizza that this is what Phil probably did. I am weary about attaching anything to the potted capacitor network* due to acceleration, road vibration, and overall safety. You wouldn't want one of those connectors to come out while driving. :? We also don't know how hot the capacitor part usually gets. There's also some transistors that need a heat sink of some sort on that board. That bracket looks mighty secure, and the additional clearance between the two may be for heat or RFI reasons. That said, I don't see how you could get away with such a thin sheet and not modify (or ditch) the mounting bracket.

Do I spot the High Voltage connections we need to hook to there on the upper left?
The ones that look like battery terminal ends?
Anybody have enough knowledge to state that we are ok to hook to this point with the charger output?

Those are no doubt the ones Phil is tapping into. Those are beautiful crimps. I use to work for a company that made power electronic test equipment and automated testers. We had some pretty expensive crimpers for stuff like that. It looks mighty tempting to go in from there. I am not sure yet if those lines are 'hot' while charging. We will need to match that level of quality connection, though. Keep in mind that is meant to handle ~250A of current. :shock: Bad connections here are very much a "game over" sort of event... :?

*That capacitor module "block" is made up of two 600V rated caps at 1186.5 uF and 1.14 uF and includes an integrated thermistor. From The Oak Ridge National Lab report (page 26) originally linked in the second post.

 

[KillaWhat]

Those are beautiful crimps. I use to work for a company that made power electronic test equipment and automated testers. We had some pretty expensive crimpers for stuff like that. It looks mighty tempting to go in from there. I am not sure yet if those lines are 'hot' while charging. We will need to match that level of quality connection, though. Keep in mind that is meant to handle ~250A of current. :shock: Bad connections here are very much a "game over" sort of event...

My plan was not to touch those beautiful crimps.
Back when I was making my open EVSE I remember figuring out that at full Dealy (6.6Kw) my AV EVSE would pass 32Amps Max.
I figure that at 8 gauge, but with no space limitations, went with 6 and a 60 amp Contactor. (you never know what's coming)
I over wired it like a good little engineer, but I'm 99% sure we can use 12 gauge wire as output FROM the Brusa.

So... Pull the battery disconnect, Meter everything to make sure the connections are indeed dead, pull the bolts, "stack" our connector onto these connectors, replace the bolts, and Bob's your uncle, we should have this part complete, and while not instantly reversible, certainly reversible.

One of the reasons I opted for the pre-made transit connect cables is that they will provide a "Second Opinion" about this sort of thing.
I'll bet YOU a pizza that they come in with no more than 10 gauge wire, and probably12 gauge as output.

 

[davewill]

A though, having not looked under here myself yet.
Is it out of the question to remove the metal support bracket, and do something like industrial foam tape (Industrial Velcro?) the board to the potted electronics area?

Couldn't you mount it using standoffs to the bottom of your new plate? That should be nice and solid while avoiding touching the rest of the components. Quite reversible, too.