Are there really that many haters?

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You have got to be kidding. Bush put us where we are today. Obama was elected to fix Bush's fuc#-ups. If you remember the 8 years it took during the Reagan administration before that recession ebbed. People think that this mess can be cleaned up in a few years. I do not think so. This one is going to take a lot longer to fix. What about all of the Constitutional forays Bush got into.
I know what side the bread you butter. No one would be talking about birtherism, socialism or communism if Blackie Mc Blackman was a WASP.
If Obama said the sky was blue the Tea baggers would say it was purple and call him a Kenyan.


Bush was bad and Obama is worse. The further we stray from the constitution the worse things get, but nobody can figure out why.
 
adric22 said:
One of the odd things I've noticed over the last year is that anytime a major news outlet runs a story that is related to EVs of any kind, the comments section is just filled with negative comments. You've all heard them, "My hummer is cleaner than your coal-powered Leaf" or "What a useless vehicle, nobody will ever buy these." I don't think I need to list all of it, you get the point. It seems worse on FoxNews, but even on more liberal news sites such as CNN or MSNBC the same is true. In fact, I have taken it upon myself to count the messages and determine a percentage of positive vs. negative. It appears that somewhere around 70% or more of the comments are negative. On FoxNews it can sometimes be close to 100%.

Okay.. I'm familiar with controversial topics. For example, I have a Texas concealed carry permit and I carry a gun everywhere I go (yes, in my Leaf for that matter). I always try to encourage people who qualify (IE: have no criminal record) to get licensed. End even though Texas is a gun-friendly state, I do encounter people in real life on a regular basis that have different beliefs on that. These are real-life people, not just on the internet.

Okay.. Here's the strange part. I live in a very right-leaning state and in person I have only encountered a total of 1 person who was against EV's. And I think he had the IQ of a doorknob and also was a prime candidate for wearing a tinfoil hat. Otherwise, 99.9% of the people I encounter every day in real life are fascinated by my Leaf and ask lots of questions. Sure, many people say that the vehicle wouldn't work for them because they drive a bazillion miles every day. But just because it doesn't work for them doesn't mean they are against the technology. In fact, most of those people are saddened that the vehicle won't work for their commute.

So explain to me why it is that in real life I don't encounter the EV haters despite living in very right-leaning area filled with large pickups and Hummers, yet on the internet it appears the haters outnumber everyone else? I don't want to be a conspiracy nut wearing a tin-foil hat myself, but I have to wonder if somebody who stands to lose from EV adoption is spewing anti-EV propaganda. Have the moderators of the news sites been paid off by somebody to only approve messages that are mostly anti-EV? Or is somebody paying a group of people to go trolling around the internet with 500 different aliases and post anti-EV comments on websites?


Back to the original topic. After seeing a recent screening of a new movie called simply "Freedom" it totally openned my eyes to how much behind the scenes that the oil companies are hoodwinking us even more than I realized. So yes, I believe and do see what you are talking about more than I would have recognized in the past. Might I even suggest that all the intermediate dialogue in this thread with political topics could be a orchestrated distraction to the original topic.

Some people do not have much knowledge about EVs, but I do agree that many people are willing to learn about the potential and option of going electric.

I highly recommend seeing the movie "Freedom". I drive a Nissan Leaf and drove a converted EV for 8-9 years in the 1990s for about 68,000 miles, but we do have more options! The movie's website http://www.thefreedomfilm.com/screenings/shows the cities it is being screened at, hopefully coming to your town soon. Or wait until it is released or order the DVD. And I now better understand what can be orchestrated behind the scenes. We will just have to do our part to share the real truth.
 
Andy H - you have said the political/economic issue very well.

But on topic.

The biggest "hater" I have run into was unwilling to listen, but heard me when I said that Saudi Arabia loves his attitude. An hour or so later he came back with a friend, and looked interested, although we didn't speak again.

I had one child - maybe 13? say he was old school - I almost laughed but I was crying inside. The got to go fast and loud NASCAR folks are half deaf due to the love they have for fired up engines. It is an American pastime, and likely will be for many years to come. It is however accepted that it is on the way out, even by some of the most die hards. So take heart, and give people rides.

That is the testimony that speaks loudest. Get people in it, and they will want one. I have heard it many times already, and with 5000 (Leaf owners in the USA) of us giving other Americans rides, the numbers will grow and grow.

Even the automakers know the truth, and they are afraid of the change. Fram, Penzoil, and many other well known brands are going to see drops in the bottom line, as well as companies that recycle oil, or sell oil based products. Every cent we are saving, is being taken out of someone elses pocket. Change is scary, and we are driving change.

I have broad shoulders, I can handle the hate. As Cyrano De Bergerac once said:

"On Principal. There are things in this world a man does well to carry to extremes...

... Here comes - thank god - another enemy!...

It is my pleasure to displease. I love
Hatred. Imagine how it feels to face
The volley of a thousand angry eyes-
The bile of envy and the froth of fear
Spattering little drops about me - You-
Good nature all around you, soft and warm-
You are like those Italians, in great cowls,
Comfortable and loose - Your chin sinks down
Into the folds, your shoulders droop. But I -
The spanish ruff I wear around my throat
Is like a ring of enemies ' hard, proud,
Each point another pride, another thorn -
So that I hold myself erect perforce
Wearing the hatred of the common herd
Haughtily, the harsh collar of Old Spain,
At once a fetter and - a halo!"
 
mitch672 said:
Government has to be drasticlly cut, socially security and medicare have to be cut to the bone and reformed. None of them have the politcal gonads to do it, so we keep heading toward the inevtible...

AND the wealthy need to pay their fair share! Warren Buffet is right! If you're going to cut ss, med, etc., then the wealthy can chip in too! All the Repubs in Congress are just too greedy and don't give a damn about helping our country...Big Oil lines their pockets!
 
I live by a simple and very effective rule: If you voted for Bush, you are an idiot and not allowed an opinion anymore.

... what was the topic again??? Oh ya, EV haters. Yup, not that many in the flesh. It's amazing what professional advocates can do with a computer and wealthy sponsors.
 
drees said:
Herm said:
Conservatives are conflicted because it lowers our dependence on foreign oil but they are very unhappy with all the BEV rebates and credits being offered to wealthy individuals and corporations.
Wait - I thought most conservatives wanted to keep taxes on the rich low?

conservatives want a fair flat tax, with equality for all.. thus they hate the abuse heaped on those wealthy people that work hard, save money (not buying new cars) and go to school to get a profitable career (unlike teaching), take risks to start a business. Envy is the root of all evil, and class warfare is envy.. it poisons your soul.
 
AndyH said:
Herm said:
Its sad that you guys cant understand what this means, and yes USAF is in the constitution.
Show me.

Its very close to the right to privacy, right near the top..

"There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know", Jonathan Swift, "Polite Conversation" 1738
 
Caracalover said:
Even the automakers know the truth, and they are afraid of the change. Fram, Penzoil, and many other well known brands are going to see drops in the bottom line, as well as companies that recycle oil, or sell oil based products. Every cent we are saving, is being taken out of someone elses pocket. Change is scary, and we are driving change.

The odd thing about that is, even with the most optimistic forecasts on EV sales, the I.C.E. vehicle is still considered a growth industry. It could be 30 to 50 years before that industry would begin to decline.
 
most republican talk about class warfare is ridiculous and completely self-serving.
they think only their side should be allowed to play.
It has something to do with right of the rich to be left alone and that they are the elect. They also forget that all the things that make their wealth and their businesses possible -- an educated work force, a functioning legal system, roads, sewers, libraries, etc. -- are things that just happen like the sunrise and rain.


(And our very own Constitutional originalists at this site still havent found the USAF in the Constitution or any conservatives who called Bush 2 a RINO when it mattered or actually said they didnt like him when he was still the decider. )
 
USAF? Is that not providing for the common defence? (sic)

Now you show me where it empowers the federal govt to force me to buy health care, or take my money and give it to others.

The dangerous thing about libs these days is they are so busy sticking it to the man they haven't noticed that the man is leaving, and taking his business elsewhere compliments of globalization. The problem just keeps getting worse, and nobody understands that it's the medication that's killing the patient.
 
adric22 said:
Caracalover said:
Even the automakers know the truth, and they are afraid of the change. Fram, Penzoil, and many other well known brands are going to see drops in the bottom line, as well as companies that recycle oil, or sell oil based products. Every cent we are saving, is being taken out of someone elses pocket. Change is scary, and we are driving change.

The odd thing about that is, even with the most optimistic forecasts on EV sales, the I.C.E. vehicle is still considered a growth industry. It could be 30 to 50 years before that industry would begin to decline.
And to kill the EV movement, they will lower prices, raise fuel economy, offer hybrids with no plugs, and use yellow journalism to keep EV's down as long as they can. Expect a car that gets 50 miles per gallon for less than 10 thousand dollars to come out in the next three to five years. They will lose money on the sale, but make it back in upkeep/oil burning costs.

We are the only ones that can change that market strategy, and they are worried about us. We are the ones with nice cars though. Almost 6000 for me, looking forward to going to the dealer for a check up - never have I said that before.
 
BTW I don't "hate" any of you, regardless of your opinion about how the input variables should be changed in the great American experiment.

But I do think Michelle Bachman is just as misguided as Barack Obama. Trying to buy my vote by promising $2 gas is no better than buying it with a promise to confiscate wealth from others and give it to me.
 
Just like the OP, I too live in Texas and in a rural suburb as well. I think my driveway/garage is the only one in my entire street that doesn't have a truck. But, like the OP, I haven't seen any "haters" in spite of the amount we see on TV and online. A person is smart, people are dumb. Whatever those media or people have a beef with EV's are trying to spread it as much as possible, which is really sad.

Any one person that comes and ask is extremely fascinated by the leaf. Yes, it won't work for everyone, and thats ok, but they don't hate it. No one I have encountered hates it. I do hear off comments about it producing more pollution than ICE cars because of coal (incorrect) or that hydrogen produces less pollution and is better and we should switch to that (inccorect). But I try to carefully explain all the facts.

As for politics, its a very odd thing. The original constitution was written to be a republic (democracy was way to crazy, give the common people a say in government is preposturous!) with the most power to congress, then the courts, and last was the president. Now all that has been changed. No one really has the "right" solution when it comes to economy or morals or anything, because everyone has a different opinion. But, the worst part, no one will listen to the other side, and it takes both sides to make it work. Its like a true EV hater, no matter what you say, they will twist your facts or just outright not believe you, and, at that point there is no way to win.

An example was right here in Dallas-Fort Worth. The City of Arlington was in the middle of electing a new mayor. One of the candidates ran with one of his "pet projects" campaigning that SH 360 (a major roadway that is bad need of expansion) will be a free facility and not a toll facility like its planned for in the future. He put of signs saying if you want SH 360 free (like it should be), vote for me, etc. I work in transportation, I worked on that project. There is NO way the project can be built without a toll. There is no money to spend, and with the feds slashing even more, there is really not money to spend (I think it was toll by 2015 or free by 2060, could you wait 50 years on a road that is already bumper to bumper?). My organization actually confronted him and he knew it was impossible, and knew he was lying, but didn't care because the public didn't know better....Its like all the anti-EV stuff you see online or on TV. Most of those in power only say what you want to hear.
 
Herm said:
AndyH said:
Herm said:
Its sad that you guys cant understand what this means, and yes USAF is in the constitution.
Show me.

Its very close to the right to privacy, right near the top..

"There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know", Jonathan Swift, "Polite Conversation" 1738
Link? Quote? I've read the Constitution, and the amendments, and just finished a 'refresher' government class (some things have changed in 30 years ;) ) and no - as the literalists have already pointed out, there is NOTHING about the USAF in the Constitution. The Army, Navy, and state militias are mentioned by name.

Again -show me. (Ok, Herm - let's get all grade-skule here -) I double-dog dare you. :lol:
 
Caracalover said:
Andy H - you have said the political/economic issue very well.
Thanks! I'm still trying to cut thru the political smoke. ;)

Caracalover said:
But on topic.
Oh, all right <pout> ;)

Caracalover said:
I had one child - maybe 13? say he was old school - I almost laughed but I was crying inside. The got to go fast and loud NASCAR folks are half deaf due to the love they have for fired up engines. It is an American pastime, and likely will be for many years to come.
Show 'em this, Amigo, and watch their faces:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9FOnkSLFBw[/youtube]

100 miles range @ 60 mph. And oh yes - world speed record holder.
http://www.lightningmotorcycle.com/
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
USAF? Is that not providing for the common defence? (sic)
Apparently not. The info I've been able to find (from Constitutional lawyers) suggests that the USAF is covered by the Army, as it was the Army Air Corps until 1947.
edit...consider this if you wish: http://volokh.com/posts/1170032632.shtml
LTLFTcomposite said:
Now you show me where it empowers the federal govt to force me to buy health care
Likely, the interstate commerce clause.
LTLFTcomposite said:
, or take my money and give it to others.
Could it be Article 1 Section 8? "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States..."

LTLFTcomposite said:
The dangerous thing about libs these days is they are so busy sticking it to the man they haven't noticed that the man is leaving
You're welcome to your opinions and broad-brush generalizations, but don't be too disappointed if 'we' don't follow your game plan. :lol:
LTLFTcomposite said:
and taking his business elsewhere compliments of globalization. The problem just keeps getting worse, and nobody understands that it's the medication that's killing the patient.
Follow the money, and learn to see thru the rhetoric and political double-speak. Businesses are out-sourcing and/or moving to other lands because of cheap labor - not because of the myths of high taxes or over-regulation. That, sir, is the difference between facts and republican talking points.

No hate - simply a desire for fact. (And yes - if you think I'm wrong, feel free to whack me in the side of the head with a 2x4 if necessary. ;))
 
This thread has seemed to stray a bit from the topic but to get back on topic, I'd like to offer my thoughts on something I came to a realization last night as I was thinking about this in a humorous way.

I was trying to put myself in the mind set of people that I know that are haters of the EV, then it came to me.. to hate on an EV is very similar to some of the reasoning behind homophobia. I'm hetero-sexual myself, and I think that even though I would like to consider myself open minded and accepting of people and their differences, admittedly I have given into behaviors that would seem a bit homophobic. Just needed to say that to set the record straight (get it... straight... ;) ). I kid, I kid, I love my homosexual brothers and sisters (well... you know what I mean).

Anyways back to homophobia and EV's; the same mind set applies. The EV haters feel like the presence of EVs around them will somehow turn them EV-ish. They don't want EVs around because it will turn their friends EV-ish, or worse... their children EV-ish! It is commonly acknowledged that the attraction that male automotive enthusiast feels towards cars can be associated to the sense of attraction towards a woman. The though of being deviated from their orientation, is a disturbing feeling to them, hence a reason to hate.
 
USAF? Is that not providing for the common defence? (sic)

Now you show me where it empowers the federal govt to force me to buy health care, or take my money and give it to others.

The dangerous thing about libs these days is they are so busy sticking it to the man they haven't noticed that the man is leaving, and taking his business elsewhere compliments of globalization. The problem just keeps getting worse, and nobody understands that it's the medication that's killing the patient.

even a blind pig occasionally finds a chestnut. You make my point and you dont even know it.
Your original post was that we get ouselves in trouble when we stray from the Constitution.
that is an originalist statement. You are fine to stray from the literal word to add powers you like, but when it is something you don't like, you are against it; then you go all Constitutional on us.
You pick and choose the places you think the Constitution can be stretched to suit your politics.
As anyone who watches the current court knows, these GOP justices -- claiming to be strict constructionists and not an activist court -- have declared unconstitutional more laws than any other court in our history.

Ditto with the class warfare protests, it is fine when you are laying it on, but the GOP screeches like a stuck blind pig, when someone says tax the rich.
In all the discussion these past two years about the growing debt, have you heard anyone say raise estate taxes once for every 100 times some GOPer says cut social security, eliminate Medicare. I dont think so. And a google search would support me.
And estate taxes are at their lowest level ever. you can substitute the top to marginal tax rates for estate taxes and identify a similar trend, though raising income taxes on the wealthy at least gets mentioned. and all this screeching goes on over trying to go back to the tax rates in place when the Clinton administration cut the debt, produced a surplus and saw it given away by Bush Cheney, who famously said those rate cuts were needed to give the surplus back.
well, guess what? That surplus is gone and that rational is dead along with it.
Pay your share, and acknowledge that our society and all its trappings, creates the environment in which you have prospered.

as to the original topic, that was a stroke of genius in comparing the EV haters to the homophobes.

As to the cite to the Volokh conspiracy blog on US Constitutional law, they are a well-known collection of libertarian lawyers. You could go to the Federalist Society and get a similar reading. I dont disagree that the USAF is Constitutional, but it isnt in the Constitution. Having it requires adapting the Constitution to current realities and our evolving nation. Ditto universal health care. We are not going back to the day of the country doctor being paid in chickens.
 
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