Brendan from Boardwalk is going to Nashville TN...

[BrendanDolan]

...to meet with Nissan, and I'd like see if I can pass along some input of your dealership experience at time of purchase, then again while servicing, what the ownership experience is like, etc.

Basically, since I've sold more LEAFs than anyone, and demand is drying up, I'm trying to help Nissan find a way to make the dealership experience better for all consumers (not just those in my neighborhood who bought from me), how to have excellent training at all dealerships, and how to get people to make the jump from their ICE cars to EV's.

So, in short, if you were Nissan (and be within reason, you can't turn dealers into Apple Stores...), what would you do to:
-Drive up demand on the car through marketing channels (web, tv, etc)
-Make the dealer experience better
-Make the after sales experience better (getting the charger installed, changing power rates, carwings, etc)
-Make servicing better
-How to push the 2012's before the 2013's get here (with all the small changes)
-And any input on this whole hot weather situation with battery life

I've been busy and away from LEAF for awhile, but I'm back helping out in our Nissan store, training sales people, helping LEAF customers, and I just set up a sweet deal with a local company that's providing LEAF leases to their employees as a perk. Sorry to have been away from the forums for awhile, and the meets, but I only have so many hours in one day. :mrgreen:

 

[TonyWilliams]

You sound like one of those guys who want to make this whole EV thing work, even if you have to dig in yourself.

The obvious things are not being done well. Chevy sold a ton of Volts with big time advertising at the Olympics. They also make it clear that it is HOV lane approved. That alone is huge. There's several huge billboards with the Volt showing the green California HOV sticker.

I would make sure every dealer had at least one LEAF specialist who actually sold AND drove the car. The car is unique enough, and the whole operating and ownership experience is different enough from an ICE that it seems logical.

I would tone down the bullshit advertising, like 100 mile range claim, and some of the other classics. GM Chevy Volt pretty much advertises what the car does, and what EPA says it will do. I think it's better to tell people that it goes twice as far as a Volt, or 73 EPA miles. Plenty have bought the car only to find out the truth (that it won't normally go 100 miles) after their check cleared the bank, and now they're stuck.

Nissan should be blowing the doors off National Plug In Day, but I suspect we will only get an acknowledgement on Facebook from their contract advertising agency.

I don't know how much the current battery situation hurts sales, but it would seem wise to address them head on. I think all the tea leaves suggest a different plan by Nissan, which will have this issue dragging on for a long time (I don't honestly think there's anything concrete they can do to fix current owner batteries). There is lots of stuff they can do to show how proactive they are; they are doing the opposite.

Please read my synopsis of the "battery fiasco" here.

 

[JeremyW]

-And any input on this whole hot weather situation with battery life

What we need is a little bit of honesty and transparency regarding the longevity of the pack, replacement costs, and what plans to be done about the current set of batteries out in the field. We know there is a problem involving heat and cycle count. We want results as soon as possible from the Casa Grande testing. Do not say it is normal. Train dealerships to leave leaf batteries at 50% unless being prepared for a customer. Consider having batteries for new cars stored indoors and installed in the car just prior to delivery.

The best marketers right now are those who own the car. Those who have been affected by the battery degradation are certainly not going to recommend the leaf. Those who actually research the car will dig up the 337 page thread on this issue. The biggest deal with electric car is the battery question. Nissan is not giving good answers to this question. This needs to change if the car is going to sell.

Take the California clean vehicle rebate project survey results with you. Show them the statistics about education level of current owners- 52% have a post-graduate degree and 35% had their bachelors. I would love to see Nissan listening to us more.

Jeremy

 

[DeaneG]

I've always been mystified why Nissan never mentions HOV lane access in California ads. It's one of the main reasons I bought mine.

 

[RegGuheert]

-Make servicing better

I have never had worse service on a vehicle, ever. This is the fault of both Nissan and my dealership:

- On Nissan's side, they have put out patches for firmware problems and then applied the fixes to only SOME of the cars affected. I am specifically referring to NTB11-041a here. Page one of this fix explains that it fixes connectivity problems with CarWings and it is apparently only applied to cars with this specific problem. But on page 9 it explains that it ALSO fixes problems with inaccurate data being uploaded via CarWings. Unfortunately, some cars have this second problem and not the first. Please tell Nissan that it is EXTREMELY frustrating to have a problem with the car and to know that they have fixed it and to have them refuse to apply that fix to ALL the affected cars!

- On the delear side, they need to learn that they don't know what they don't know. My salesperson was great and he understood this and worked with me to find answers. But service has been a nightmare. To them, an a educated customer is their worst customer. I showed them the NTB that needed to be applied to fix the CarWings problem and that I knew my VIN number didn't fit but that I still needed the problem fixed. They shut me down and told me not to diagnose the problem, they have LEAF-certified technicians that could fix the problem, etc. Long story short, they told me they reapplied the update that they had said they applied months before because "it didn't take the first time". So here I sit with the same exact problem, knowing that Nissan has the answer in hand but no resolution.

-And any input on this whole hot weather situation with battery life

You can tell Nissan that their entire record of corporate communication regarding the capacity retention of the LEAF battery in hot climates is not at all believable to me. Not one bit of it rings true when comparing their official statements from Mark Perry and others with the outstanding body of literature on similar battery chemistries regarding how they will stand up in hot climates. And now when the batteries are degrading as many expert observers predicted that they would, all Nissan can say is "We don't have a battery problem." Please don't keep feeding us that line when we know that there are cars which have lost close to 40% of their range in just 15 months. They need to understand that any vehicle which loses range that quickly is an economic and environmental nightmare and should never have been sold into such a climate. Nissan has lost all credibility on this topic. The only way they can recover is to act in a manner which will prove that they are committed to making their customers whole who have lost quite a bit of money because they believed Nissan's inaccurate statements regarding capacity retention. As it stands, your customers are forced to find a way to get out from under the burden of a car which no longer works for them because Nissan says it is normal. Trust me, you will lose those customers for life and many of them will go out of their way to dissuade others from buying any of your products.

 

[NYLEAF]

Put DC Fast Chargers at Nissan dealers. Let us know which ones are 24/7 and which ones are business hours only.

 

[Phoenix]

Put DC Fast Chargers at Nissan dealers. Let us know which ones are 24/7 and which ones are business hours only.

+1 (And the amenities offered by Santa Rosa Nissan are not too shabby: welcome message on the DCQC to use their facilities which include wi-fi, snacks, TV, waiting room,, restrooms. And powered by a 100 kw solar PV array! What a crime for a dealership with solar panels NOT to offer DCQC!)

 

[mdh]

Agree

 

[tailgate1234]

Nissan needs to come up with a solution to the battery degradation problem or they will have a lot of lease returns on their hands including mine. Heavily discounted battery replacement option for the first 8 years after sale would be helpful.

 

[tbleakne]

I concur 100% with all other comments posted above this one. For the first 10 months of ownership I was a very enthusiastic proponent of the LEAF who had given his strong endorsement to perhaps 50 folks who had approached me about it. I gave an invited presentation on the LEAF at my town's Earth Day celebration. My best argument was this: the vast majority of two-car families never need to drive both vehicles more than 80 miles in one day. Therefore they could replace one of their vehicles with a LEAF, drive it the most, and use their gas vehicle for out-of-town trips. They can save a ton of oil and, if they add solar, their LEAF fuel can work out to about $.03 per mile.

I took delivery 15 months ago, and my LEAF currently shows a measured loss of 11% capacity. All this loss has manifested itself in the last 7 months, and during the hot summer weather I have lost a steady 1.4% per month. This is much faster than I expected, based upon Nissan's statements, and I am no longer recommending the LEAF at all. This decline has continued even as I have reduced most of my charging from 80% to as low as 45%.

I live and drive in a warm Southern California climate much milder than AZ, but one that is shared by many hundreds of other LEAF owners, many of whom may not be aware that their cars' capacity is declining at a similar rate. When these folks lose their first capacity bar much sooner than Nissan predicted, the number of complaints is going to rise sharply.

It is too late for our cars, but until batteries with better temperature tolerance are developed, Nissan needs to offer a warm-weather package that provides active cooling of the battery similar to what other EV manufacturers offer. I believe this improvement could designed to be modest in cost. They need to announce a target date for this feature.

Nissan also needs to deploy QCs throughout the major metropolitan areas.

 

[DaveEV]

My comments will mirror a lot of the others...

Drive up demand on the car through marketing channels (web, tv, etc)

Need to push the strengths of the car more - but only in cool climates until the heat related degradation issue is solved. Absolutely do not stretch the truth to make it more appealing.

Make the dealer experience better

I hate getting pressured to buy stuff I don't want by the financing people. Big turnoff getting pushed towards a lease / extended warranty at the last minute by telling me it's new tech and likely to have issues when I know it's a ploy to suck more money out of me.

Make the after sales experience better (getting the charger installed, changing power rates, carwings, etc)

No issues here.

Make servicing better

Like RegGuheert I also had issues getting NTB11-041a applied (though not as many as him) - it was clear that the dealer hadn't done it before.

How to push the 2012's before the 2013's get here (with all the small changes)

Pretty simple - going to have to discount it. I heard something about free rentals for road trips - this needs to be offered to all LEAF owners - even if not free highly discounted rentals would go a long way towards making people feel comfortable with their purchase. Make L2 charging consistently available to all plug-in owners. If you must charge to prevent abuse, use one of the available commercial solutions (and make it possible/easy for Nissan owners to charge for free). Even better - make DC/QC available. If every Nissan dealership had one installed, it would vastly improve the usability of the Nissan LEAF since dealerships tend to be located near major roads.

And any input on this whole hot weather situation with battery life

Stop denying there's an issue. Even if the capacity gauge is pessimistic, it's very clear that after a bit more than 1 year in Phoenix you are very likely to be down 15% capacity. That is simply not acceptable when we're told to expect 20% capacity loss at 5 years. More data on expected capacity degradation in various climates and usage patterns is desired. Can never have too much data/information. Tell us how much 80% vs 100% charging will improve battery life. Tell us how much a daily QC will reduce battery life. Need to know what Nissan is doing to address the heat issue and a rough estimate on when to expect a solution. The lack of communication and attention paid to what used to be Nissan's most enthusiastic owners is appalling. Contrast Nissan's (lack of) response to GM's battery crash/battery-fire issue. Completely opposite - but GM went out of their way to make owners happy and feel comfortable with their purchase.

 

[Nubo]

The lack of a battery capacity warranty tells the world that Nissan doesn't trust its battery. The world is starting to listen.

 

[Herm]

The lack of a battery capacity warranty tells the world that Nissan doesn't trust its battery. The world is starting to listen.

Does any manufacturer warrant capacity?.. that may be an embarrassing item.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The lack of a battery capacity warranty tells the world that Nissan doesn't trust its battery. The world is starting to listen.

Does any manufacturer warrant capacity?.. that may be an embarrassing item.

Yes, GM at 80%, Renault at 75%.



After years of speculation, General Motors has finally announced the terms of the warranty on the Chevrolet Volt’s lithium ion battery pack; eight years/100,000 miles.
The 16 total kwh pack stores sufficient energy in a band from roughly 30% to 80% state-of-charge to propel the car for up to 40 miles at ambient temperature and with moderate driving style.
Since first working with the LG Chem lithium-manganese spinel cells in October 2007, GM has definitively proven their safe and robust nature. In these nearly three years of testing, GM has completed more than 1 million miles of driving and 4 million hours of validation of Volt battery packs, which include exactly nine modules and 288 cells.

GM stresses the following key features of the Volt’s battery that allow this unprecedented in the industry warranty:
Thermal Management: the intrinsic thermal management system allows the pack and car to operate flawlessly from -13 degrees Fahrenheit (-25 C) and as high as 122 degrees Fahrenheit (+50 C). In cold weather the cells are warmed by the generator and in warm weather they are chilled.
Diagnostics: there are more than 500 diagnostic tests on the pack that run 10 times per second. 85 percent ensure the pack is operating safely, 15 percent ensure durability.
Cell design: the LG chemistry ensures high power and long life.
Energy Management: by not fully charging or discharging the battery ensures the longest possible life.

In addition to this battery warranty, GM is also offering the following additional warranties on the car:
100,000 mile/5-year transferable Engine Limited Warranty (for Range Extender)
100,000 mile/5-year 24/7 Roadside Assistance Program
100,000 mile/5-year 24/7 Courtesy Transportation Program
36,000 mile/ 3-year no deductible Bumper-to-Bumper transferable warranty
100,000 mile/6-year corrosion protection

 

[azdre]

Not that I want Nissan to make any more money, but I loved this car for a while, and in cool climates it seems to be holding up so far. The car is very well built, sturdy, solid and really fun to drive. These things all surprised me when I picked up the car and could be better advertised. What about a guaranteed trade-in program where folks can try one out for a month and if it doesn't suit their needs, they can trade it in for another new Nissan. Posting a myth-busting factsheet on the window of every LEAF so that walk-bys get some education on the dealer lot might help. Discontinue the Versa or restyle it, folks don't recognize the car as unique often because the styles are similar.

People also aren't aware of how much money you really save. With overnight charging and 3.50/gallon gas, our Prius costs us 4-5x per mile what our LEAF costs.

Honesty going forward would be good. I went to the calculator on the LEAF page a few days ago and it claims a daily 60 mile drive split between freeway and city streets is a great option for a LEAF. Even IF there weren't serious degradation issues, at the end of 5 years with 80% remaining this sounds like a stretch based on EPA rating, which is much more realistic than this 100 mile BS.

24 hour QCs at dealers would be good. Toyota has 2 here now, so we spend a lot of time talking to Toyota sales folks as we try to make our trips work.

Unfortunately, unless some sort of meaculpa is done very soon to have a voluntary buy back of these hot weather LEAFs and a RANGE warranty, I am going to be as vocal as possible to try and protect consumers from Nissan. I was also a very vocal supporter of the program, had owned 6 Nissan's in my life between my parents and myself and trusted the company to give me a great mass-produced EV. Now I'm stuck with a car that doesn't suit my needs and no dealer will take as a trade-in.

Nissan has grown a network of well-educated, motivated detractors and the program can't succeed unless we are moved back into the neutral category.

 

[TEG]

Put DC Fast Chargers at Nissan dealers. Let us know which ones are 24/7 and which ones are business hours only.

I am disappointed that the CHAdeMO "rollout" has been so slow.
When I bought the LEAF, it was suggested that CHAdeMO was coming quickly in a big way.
We watched Washington and Oregon do the highway 5 "EV highway corridor", but CA did not reciprocate.
I had hoped the LEAF could work as an occasional "road trip" car from SF bay area to Sacramento, Tahoe, or even LA, but currently I am "range locked" to just the Bay Area due to lack of CHAdeMO.

Getting them put in at all the Nissan dealerships would be very helpful, and show Nissan's commitment to this technology.

The Blink in Belmont is rather unreliable. Don't use it as an excuse not to put one in at Boardwalk Nissan. Also, having one at Gilroy Nissan would open up trips to Monterrey & Carmel.

 

[LEAFfan]

24 hour QCs at dealers would be good. Toyota has 2 here now, so we spend a lot of time talking to Toyota sales folks as we try to make our trips work.

Where is the second Toyota QC? I only know of Toyota Riverview's, ECOtality's, Bell Ford's, and the only QC that is 24/7 is at PADT off the 101.

 

[TomT]

+10! Though I believe that Nissan needs to come clean on the battery degradation situation before any great inroads to additional sales can be made...

Put DC Fast Chargers at Nissan dealers. Let us know which ones are 24/7 and which ones are business hours only.

 

[shrink]

24 hour QCs at dealers would be good. Toyota has 2 here now, so we spend a lot of time talking to Toyota sales folks as we try to make our trips work.

Where is the second Toyota QC? I only know of Toyota Riverview's, ECOtality's, Bell Ford's, and the only QC that is 24/7 is at PADT off the 101.

Camelback Toyota at Camelback and 16th St. Northwest corner.

 

[palmermd]

Nissan has grown a network of well-educated, motivated detractors and the program can't succeed unless we are moved back into the neutral category.

Wow. This is a sad but noteworthy comment.