Can I reliably make a 65-mile drive?

[thankyouOB]

to make this abundantly clear, the GRA issue is that he doesnt let folks who are new to the forum -- dfriedla is a perfect example -- know that he does not own and has no real-life experience with the car.
he should disclose that he is not an owner in his signer, if he is going to give ownership advice.

he has a strong point of view about Nissan and the car that is based not on usage but on reading and research -- allot of it done right here.

I have learned allot here and adjusted some of the ways i use the car, particularly owing to many of the EEs who are experienced and knowledgeable and who apply their battery chemistry know-how to their experience with the Leaf. The AZ owners have played a very interesting role recently.

Some may not have been around long enough to remember the guy who flew a helicopter over the Port of LB back in the day when we were all wondering what was going on with the delay in delivery of Leafs in early 2011, or the guys who talked to longshoremen in Wilmington/San Pedro/Long Beach to find out more; i did some of that, too.

 

[ztanos]

to make this abundantly clear, the GRA issue is that he doesnt let folks who are new to the forum -- dfriedla is a perfect example -- know that he does not own and has no real-life experience with the car.
he should disclose that he is not an owner in his signer, if he is going to give ownership advice.

he has a strong point of view about Nissan and the car that is based not on usage but on reading and research -- allot of it done right here.

I have learned allot here and adjusted some of the ways i use the car, particularly owing to many of the EEs who are experienced and knowledgeable and who apply their battery chemistry know-how to their experience with the Leaf. The AZ owners have played a very interesting role recently.

Some may not have been around long enough to remember the guy who flew a helicopter over the Port of LB back in the day when we were all wondering what was going on with the delay in delivery of Leafs in early 2011, or the guys who talked to longshoremen in Wilmington/San Pedro/Long Beach to find out more; i did some of that, too.

*sigh* I get the guy isn't perfect. I believe I have said so more than once on this very thread. What I am trying to get across to you is that if he isn't hurting anything, don't go actively seeking him out to try and make him worse. He didn't do anything wrong yet on this thread, so as of right now, you are the guy running around driveling on about GRA being bad. He shouldn't have to clarify if he owns a LEAF or not, what does it matter. His advice has been, so far, helpful and not in any way harmful to the LEAF. Do I need to wear a badge at my work that declares I have a degree therefore I can speak about the topic my degree is in? No, I speak and if people think I know what I am talking about they can figure it out. If they think otherwise then ok, that is their prerogative as well. Just like the mods didn't force the location identifier on folks, they, also, didn't force what vehicle you own either. Different levels of enlightenment I guess.

 

[GRA]

to make this abundantly clear, the GRA issue is that he doesnt let folks who are new to the forum -- dfriedla is a perfect example -- know that he does not own and has no real-life experience with the car.
he should disclose that he is not an owner in his signer, if he is going to give ownership advice.

Ah, now there you make a valid point. While (unlike your claim) I've never made any attempt to hide the fact that I don't own a Leaf (I have so stated in numerous posts, and I'm unaware of anybody asking me before now to put it in my sig), just to clear up any possible future confusion I'll add that.

he has a strong point of view about Nissan and the car that is based not on usage but on reading and research -- allot of it done right here.

Well, no. To recap, while I don't have months or years of experience owning and driving any EV let alone the Leaf, I have test-driven the Leaf, Coda, Mitsubishi i, and as soon as I can find one, will also drive the Focus EV and Fit EV. As soon as necessary charging infrastructure is in place along some of the routes I wish to test the cars on, I will rent them for a day or weekend. I also lived with and drove a prototype Think City for a week more than a decade ago, writing a multi-page critique of it for the distributor. And then there's the years I spent designing and selling off-grid AE systems, which gave me far more knowledge of batteries and their foibles than the general public. The fact that several of my customers had done home-brew conversion of BEVs and would discuss them with me also fed into my knowledge base. My battery experience didn't include any with Li-Ion batteries and I've acknowledged that on numerous occasions, stating where my experience may not be applicable, while doing as much research as possible to bring me up to speed on them. But it doesn't take knowledge of a specific Li-Ion chemistry to know that chemical activity will be reduced in any battery in cold temps, that high temps are bad for battery longevity, or that all batteries degrade with age and usage, and that these factors need to be taken into account when making a purchase decision.

As to reading and research, I have undoubtedly learned a great deal about the Leaf specifically, and some other more general subjects (such as different Li-Ion battery chemistries) here, but that's hardly the extent of my reading and research. If you are claiming otherwise that is not only fallacious, it also requires you to be clairvoyant. FWIW, I've been working on an EV bibliography for newbies, books or reports which I've found informative or useful, and will be putting that up in the appropriate section shortly. I'm a voracious reader on subjects which I'm interested in, but I've tried to limit it to those I found most valuable rather than just listing every book, study, website or what have you on the subject which I've read - the latter list would run into the hundreds.

 

[mkjayakumar]

GRA: you are giving all this advice and being so opinionated by just a few test drives..?

That's hilarious.

 

[GRA]

GRA: you are giving all this advice and being so opinionated by just a few test drives..?

That's hilarious.

I fail to see how number of test drives has anything to do with general battery, electric motor, inverter etc. behavior. For the specifics I defer to those who have more experience with the Leaf than me, and who have reported these experiences here and elsewhere; the advice I give is based on both my own experience and knowledge as well as the experiences of others. Isn't that what you do?

Oh, btw, if anyone's interested, here's the link to the EV bibliography I posted:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9506" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[planet4ever]

He is not 100% wrong, but he certainly puts one foot on the truth and stretches the other one out as far as possible to reach his point.
<snip>
there are chargers 10 miles out from my house, so i dont worry about it as I can get 10-12 miles of charge in 30 minutes or so.

Excuse me, but now who's stretching the truth? You are obviously talking about L2, not QC, so the theoretical limit with today's LEAF is about 1.65 kWh into the battery in half an hour. To go even 10 miles on 1.65 kWh you have to get more than 6 m/kWh on the dash. At 12 miles you would be well above 7 m/kWh. There aren't many of us who can do that.

If the OP lived in a moderate climate, I would say, "Learn to drive 60-65 and go for it." But in Chicago? Sorry, the winters are too cold for 65 miles to be practical.

Ray

 

[kubel]

If the OP lived in a moderate climate, I would say, "Learn to drive 60-65 and go for it." But in Chicago? Sorry, the winters are too cold for 65 miles to be practical.

+1

 

[ztanos]

GRA: you are giving all this advice and being so opinionated by just a few test drives..?

That's hilarious.

So lack of physical experience with something means lack of knowledge with something got it. Guess I should no longer answer questions to potential LEAFers when they ask me questions about it. My entire company has been asking me positive questions about it, but now whenever they ask I'll have to tell them, "sorry, can't answer. I've only test driven the car. My months and months of learning isn't good enough to answer your question. Please come see me in January when I have accrued some "knowledge.""

That's funny. If this were true in the real world, I wouldn't be the owner of multiple server certifications. I cannot afford to purchase all of the servers that it would take for me to have "learned" enough other than a quick test drive.

 

[ztanos]

If the OP lived in a moderate climate, I would say, "Learn to drive 60-65 and go for it." But in Chicago? Sorry, the winters are too cold for 65 miles to be practical.

+1

Uh oh... people are starting to agree with GRA. What is the other half of the coin going to do. The world may just end.

 

[DaveEV]

MOD NOTE: LEAF ownership is not a requirement for healthy participation on this forum. Neither is including a disclaimer with each post saying that you do not own one. The only requirement for participation is a healthy respect for others.

Play nice, people. And instead of attacking people - if you have a beef with something someone says, stick to the posts instead of reverting to ad hominem. I really am tired of babysitting (why is it always the same people involved?)

dfriedla on the whole got good advice. Too bad the signal to noise ratio sucks.

 

[kubel]

I really am tired babysitting.

But... but... but you are our most favoritest baby sitter. No one else lets us stay up past our bed time!

::cries::

 

[thankyouOB]

GRA,
thanks for adding that info to your signer.

apologies if I miscalculated the amount of distance from a 30-minute or so charge.
about 6 months ago I did a rough in my mind, to figure the time I would need to use that station in a low-battery situation.
it is 10 miles from my house along surface streets. I guess I assumed i would not arrive empty and decided I would have to spend around 30 minutes.
was I that far off? 45 minutes then, if the car was actually empty; which would be impossible in that situation.

I did my 63-mile drive yesterday -- the regular one -- freeway 90% and some streets. Got home with 2 plus bars.
that is in good weather and 15 months after ownership began.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

drive 55 mph and you can make it as long as temps stay above Zero

 

[SanDust]

Yesterday it was 57.5 miles to LBW showing 8 miles. According to Carwings 5 on the Average Energy Economy and Rank was 1985 out of whatever (Gold level). A fair amount of surface street nice driving but some Freeway at 70 MPH. Very nice weather.

Still have all capacity bars after 16 months.

Don't see a 65 mile commute being viable with the current Leaf for most people. I don't think my car is an outlier because the other people who own a Leaf get similar range. Even assuming there may be variation in the range between Leafs, who is to say someone won't get a Leaf that gives this type of range my car provides.

I don't doubt that Tony Williams would get more range than I do but not everyone is Tony Williams.

 

[thankyouOB]

speed is the killer.
I only rarely go more than 63-65, and average always in the 4 miles per kWh, with a few times at 5 over 50 miles.
that gets me a mile range in the 70s with a high percentage of freeway driving.

If I do go above 65, it is for short distances to deal with passing situations, switch lanes, or get around a truck or car in a potentially unsafe situation such as approaching an on ramp where cars are merging onto my freeway.

 

[SanDust]

Tony Williams is down to 65 miles until VLBW. He's a much better hypermiler than most so I'd say the normal person could not reliably do a 65 mile commute, at least not after the first year. If things were right they could do it, just not reliably.

 

[Cheezmo]

So the answer to me is yes.

Unless you want to drive normally

If you are fine with driving really slow on a 70 mph highway, annoying other drivers, and being really careful about the weather and driving without A/C/heat sometimes you'll be able to do it and if you are the kind of person that enjoys that you'll have fun.

If you just want to get in your car and drive normally without thinking about it, you'll probably get very stressed out.

I would therefore recommend against it.

I drove about 95 miles on my Leaf today. Started the day with a full charge, drove 45 miles, got home with 2 or 3 bars, charged it up to about 90% again, drove the 45 miles again and got home with 2 bars. 80% of the drive was on a 70MPH highway and I drove 70MPH. This is in 104 degree weather with A/C blasting. I was comfortable, drove the speed I wanted, and probably had a total range of about 60 miles per charge.

 

[dgpcolorado]

To get back on topic:

I would recommend you NOT keep the LEAF because I don't believe it will provide you with consistent 65-mile highway range, unless you have another vehicle. In the summer, I think a charge to 100% and keeping the speeds down to around 65 should get you there with no problem. The biggest challenge will be trying to make that 65-mile highway trip in the winter. A lot of early adopters live in warm weather states and haven't encountered our temperatures, so they may not be considering the affect cold weather has on range for several months out of the year.

Owning the LEAF is a learning experience. It took me about a month before I was able to comfortably ween myself off of at-work charging. Once I figured out the car, I felt much more confident in its ability to get me where I needed to go. I drive around 60 miles/day with a 80% charge, but my top speed in my commute is only around 55-60MPH. But come winter, I'll be needing to plug in at work again, because 60 miles in the winter will be tough to pull off, even with a 100% charge and preheating.

This. I'm sorry but 65 miles, mostly at highway speeds, in Chicago can NOT be reliably done in winter. Rain, snow, wind, and cold are all range killers. Throw in a battery pack that loses capacity over time and the range will decrease even under ideal driving conditions.

Unless dfriedla can make some significant compromises the LEAF is not a good fit. Examples: drive more slowly than normal freeway speeds, skip making the trip when the weather is less than perfect or take another car, avoid using the heater in winter and get by with the seat and steering wheel heaters (I do this but not everyone is as comfortable with it as I am), find and use some sort of enroute charging. Barring those compromises the LEAF just won't be able to make that run in winter by the end of the 39 month lease and probably not even in the first winter when the roads are wet or slushy and the wind is blowing.

My 2¢.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Friday i drove 62.3 miles to Seattle and arrived with 24.3% SOC remaining. temps in low 60's and i set CC to 57 mph at least until the speed limit dropped to 30 mph (typical of Seattle downtown traffic on I-5)

it is really as simple as that. figure out how far you want to go. assume 20 KW, reset your trip meters and then decide how fast you need to go.

for example, you want to go 76 miles. you have 20 KW to use (actually a bit more in Summer) so you need to average 3.8 miles per Kw. so drive to average 4.0 miles or better.

FYI; in flatness, no wind...iow, like one of those physics problems you did in class. drive 60 mph, you will average 4.1-4.2 miles per KW

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony Williams is down to 65 miles until VLBW. He's a much better hypermiler than most so I'd say the normal person could not reliably do a 65 mile commute, at least not after the first year. If things were right they could do it, just not reliably.

Well, you have to specify at 4 miles per kWh for that 65 miles at VLB. There's no magic to do 4 miles/kWh; just cruise control down the highway at 60-65mph.

Yes, I could slow below 60mph to get higher miles per kWh (and thus more range from my 15-20% degraded battery in 15 months), but slower speeds on freeways in California just aren't smart.

I honestly don't have any idea where these batteries will be in 3 or 5 years, but I do know it's nothing like the Rav4.