Chademo vs SAE

[smkettner]

So currently half the QC spots will go unused waiting for GM and their group of cronies to roll a car off the line. :roll:

Not really. When the time comes (and no one can even BUY a plug right now), I'm thinking they will be putting two plugs on a single charger making each station available for either type of car.

The two cable device I saw posted I believe charges one car at a time in front of two spots. With minimal effort the charger can run about continuous. Unless of course the connector does not fit your vehicle and you have to wait for the charged vehicle to move.

 

[palmermd]

90% based on what? I would like to an estimate from someone in the know, someone from Nissan.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1063372_2012-nissan-leaf-more-standard-equipment-higher-price" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The 2012 equipment changes, Nissan says, were based on feedback from owners of the 4,000-plus 2011 Leaf models delivered so far. Most owners ordered the quick-charge feature, and the winter package is clearly needed to make the Leaf more usable as Nissan prepares to launch it in more cold-weather markets.

http://www.insideline.com/nissan/leaf/2012/2012-nissan-leaf-gets-price-hike-more-equipment.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nissan is also making DC Fast Charge capability standard on the 2012 Nissan Leaf SL. Zachary said the SL has so far accounted for 95 percent of Leaf sales and that 90 percent of buyers have been opting for the quick charger.

 

[Nekota]

.....
I agree it's likely more than half (a majority) of the Leafs that have the CHAdeMO. But, I'm interested in how many cars could actually be affected. And, of those, how many owners actually would use it. The numbers are actually very small. Tony Williams posted a survey and almost no one wanted to pay what DC charging cost in electricity. Then there's the cost of the units, the maintenance and everything else. If no Leaf owners are going to pay for it, why should this even be a problem?

The number of cars compliant to"SAE combo" (rhymes with dumbo) remains to be zero - how much smaller do you need? It's a trivial matter for the charger to support both plugs but the GM 'embargo' really convinces me what a shill of a company GM has become.
GM messed up the EV charging sticker program and now they want to use the dumbo for embargo. And then to call it a taxpayer issue. GM really does know how to make sure I won't even ride in another GM product.

 

[DANandNAN]

Nissan is also making DC Fast Charge capability standard on the 2012 Nissan Leaf SL. Zachary said the SL has so far accounted for 95 percent of Leaf sales and that 90 percent of buyers have been opting for the quick charger.

You do know that doesn't mean that 90% of Leaf's have the CHAdeMO, right? Close enough, unless we consider all those Leaf's sold before the CHAdeMO was offered. And, it doesn't tell us how many folks use it, how many of those folks use it on a regular basis, nor how many of those folks would use it if they charged to make a profit or how many folks would be willing to drive on a road trip where their travel speed was 35mph (an hour of driving + an hour of charging).

Anyway, I'm hoping for long-range batteries, that Nissan drops this foolishness and gets on-board and that they have a conversion kit to SAE Combo for the few folks that actually use DC.

 

[palmermd]

Nissan is also making DC Fast Charge capability standard on the 2012 Nissan Leaf SL. Zachary said the SL has so far accounted for 95 percent of Leaf sales and that 90 percent of buyers have been opting for the quick charger.

You do know that doesn't mean that 90% of Leaf's have the CHAdeMO, right? Close enough, unless we consider all those Leaf's sold before the CHAdeMO was offered. And, it doesn't tell us how many folks use it, how many of those folks use it on a regular basis, nor how many of those folks would use it if they charged to make a profit or how many folks would be willing to drive on a road trip where their travel speed was 35mph (an hour of driving + an hour of charging).

Anyway, I'm hoping for long-range batteries, that Nissan drops this foolishness and gets on-board and that they have a conversion kit to SAE Combo for the few folks that actually use DC.

First off, I ordered my car august 1st which was the second day anybody could order and ChaDeMO was an option. Get you facts straight, it has ALWAYS been an option. The report clearly states that 90% of the 4000 buyers to date (when article was published) have ChaDeMO installed. Now your changing your argument to how many of us use it... Your headed down a very weak argument road here. If we, the 90%, all had SAE and the ChaDeMo chargers were all SAE I believe the numbers would be exactly the same. The type of plug is not keeping us from using them!

Batteries...now your talking about something we can all agree on. Better batteries are the solution. There are lots of folks working on this, and it will eventually come.

 

[DANandNAN]

Nissan is also making DC Fast Charge capability standard on the 2012 Nissan Leaf SL. Zachary said the SL has so far accounted for 95 percent of Leaf sales and that 90 percent of buyers have been opting for the quick charger.

You do know that doesn't mean that 90% of Leaf's have the CHAdeMO, right? Close enough, unless we consider all those Leaf's sold before the CHAdeMO was offered. And, it doesn't tell us how many folks use it, how many of those folks use it on a regular basis, nor how many of those folks would use it if they charged to make a profit or how many folks would be willing to drive on a road trip where their travel speed was 35mph (an hour of driving + an hour of charging).

Anyway, I'm hoping for long-range batteries, that Nissan drops this foolishness and gets on-board and that they have a conversion kit to SAE Combo for the few folks that actually use DC.

First off, I ordered my car august 1st which was the second day anybody could order and ChaDeMO was an option. Get you facts straight, it has ALWAYS been an option. The report clearly states that 90% of the 4000 buyers to date (when article was published) have ChaDeMO installed. Now your changing your argument to how many of us use it... Your headed down a very weak argument road here. If we, the 90%, all had SAE and the ChaDeMo chargers were all SAE I believe the numbers would be exactly the same. The type of plug is not keeping us from using them!

Batteries...now your talking about something we can all agree on. Better batteries are the solution. There are lots of folks working on this, and it will eventually come.

Why are you so upset?

I've never changed my point, I'm commenting on how many folks would actually be affected by the switch - which I believe was what folks scream about the loudest. Most Leaf owners aren't using their CHAdeMO and almost no one is willing to pay for it to be sustainable then there's no point. As taxpayers why do we want to pay for something that only owners of a certain car can use, and almost none will use enough to make it profitable when 9 major manufacturers are going to use a standard? Those BMW, Porsche, Audi, Mercedes and Cadillac owners will pay for stations to be profitable and plentiful. To paraphrase Tony Wiliams Leaf owners aren't willing to pay and I should switch to Tesla(?).

Still, the biggest hurdle is the time to charge and the lack of range in the batteries. Cost to charge is right there though.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I've never changed my point, I'm commenting on how many folks would actually be affected by the switch - which I believe was what folks scream about the loudest. Most Leaf owners aren't using their CHAdeMO and almost no one is willing to pay for it to be sustainable then there's no point. As taxpayers why do we want to pay for something that only owners of a certain car can use, and almost none will use enough to make it profitable when 9 major manufacturers are going to use a standard? Those BMW, Porsche, Audi, Mercedes and Cadillac owners will pay for stations to be profitable and plentiful. To paraphrase Tony Wiliams Leaf owners aren't willing to pay and I should switch to Tesla(?).

Still, the biggest hurdle is the time to charge and the lack of range in the batteries.

Unfortunately, blocking your posts doesn't prevent others from quoting your swill for me to read.

Like normal, you're all over the place. Battery standards have no bearing on charging standards. Tony (me) suggested that Tesla owners are more likely to pay than LEAF drivers. I suspect that "thriftiness" would include drivers of low end cars proposed like the GM Spark, and to a lesser degree, the BMW i3. Your Frankenplug won't even be offered in many of the proposed EVs from the 8/9 manufactures you are enamored with.

LEAF owners won't be switching their cars to either of the proposals, Frankenplug USA or Frankenplug Euro specification. Sub region specifications to a regional proposal.

By the way, that's all it is so far. A proposal. Not even approved by the organization tasked with its design. ChadeMo has been proposed, designed, approved, manufactured, lab approvals (UL, et al), deployed around the world at 1400 locations, with 400 more going in Europe by Nissan, and used for the past few years (May 2010 in Vacaville, California).

You assume that all chargers are government paid for, and that makes sense when you think in the context of GM as a government owned entity. Maybe the government should just issue cars and dictate standards?

But, there are private efforts with DC chargers.

 

[bryan38401]

tell em tony your right private companys and small business owners are the major installers now and we are going to move on with CHAdeMO and nissan products the volt is a great car but I personally want all electric and since me and other local businessman and women want all electric why should we wait because somebody MIGHT have a better product someday.did you see the press release from nissan today about production of the e-nv200 yea baby thats what im talking about. work vans all electric NO GAS and a few CHAdeMO chargers here and there we can work all day!!!

 

[TonyWilliams]

the e-nv200 yea baby thats what im talking about. work vans all electric NO GAS and a few CHAdeMO chargers here and there we can work all day!!!

Where the Mercedes Sprinter van is used today, I suspect for short range deliveries, this Nissan product will be very popular.

 

[DANandNAN]

Like normal, you're all over the place. Battery standards have no bearing on charging standards. Tony (me) suggested that Tesla owners are more likely to pay than LEAF drivers. I suspect that "thriftiness" would include drivers of low end cars proposed like the GM Spark, and to a lesser degree, the BMW i3.

You assume that all chargers are government paid for, and that makes sense when you think in the context of GM as a government owned entity. Maybe the government should just issue cars and dictate standards?

But, there are private efforts with DC chargers.

LOL, of course batteries relate directly to this because they're the reason the Leaf need to be charged so often. If they had a better range this Band-Aid wouldn't be necessary.

Now, to be fair, you did way more than suggest that Tesla owners are more likely to pay than Leaf owners. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8854&start=30#p197437" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tony,
I just saw your post that you're getting the $20K Andromeda Power portable DC fast charger. Did I just discover why you've started this thread on what to fees to charge? :lol:
:?

Yes, I've been working on developing a DC infrastructure since last October. I will operate "several". Andromeda is my contracted partner, and will provide chargers to my specifications. I think the list price is $25k, though.

But, I've spent a great deal of effort on the technical hurdles, and little effort on customer preferences. None of the price structures that I've presented are guaranteed to be viable to the DC charging provider, which is the whole point. I've considered that it won't make money, but only because we're waiting for more LEAFs to hit the road.

The more recent realization is that LEAF drivers really aren't that interested in paying to use a viable, sustainable model, but instead it gets down to what is cheapest or most convenient to them. That, of course, will result in a what we currently have... almost no DC chargers.

So, now I have to consider if anything related to ChadeMo cars is worthwhile, and if it's more logical to service only Tesla and SAE BMW cars with DC charging. I suspect that, unlike LEAF drivers, they aren't likely to leave the $100,000 Tesla at home because it's cheaper to drive the Prius/Volt.

That's way more than a suggestion that Tesla owners were more willing to pay. "if anything related to ChadeMo (sic) cars is worthwhile" is exactly what I'm saying. Spending money on an unsustainable network is pointless. CHAdeMO is only going to be installed in the Leaf and maybe the Infinity (and yes, the i-MiEV). Installing stations that can be used by higher end cars on a regular basis will allow the network to be sustainable and the station will be there for the occasional "thrifty" owner's use. Heck, the "thrifty" owners would benefit because the price would be driven down over time.

Moving onto the statement about government paying for and being involved in everything. Well, that's where a lot of funding comes from. All these small businesses that you're trying to start, installing 10k-25k charging stations, are you independently wealthy or was someone going to look into a SB loan? When Nissan, Chevy, and others build a plant, do they do it with 100% of their own money? No. When a battery company wants to develop some knew tech, do some ask for a loan? Most businesses get outside funding, from banks who are insured by? The government. What about the solar panels on all those roofs - no government money there? How about the electricity that powers these EV's? Yup, that's government money too. And, all these EVSE stations that are being put in, how many of them aren't being at least partially subsidized? What about the EVSE companies that built them? Yup, government money there too. I think you'd be hard pressed to find something in EV that wasn't somehow aided by government dollars. But, that's a bad thing? Or is it a bad thing because you're mad at GM for taking funds - meanwhile, again, you have no recognition of the fact that you're driving a car that also benefited from government funds. Pot - Kettle. Again. :lol:

 

[bryan38401]

tony I average 100-175 miles a day doing sevice calls this is doable even with level 2 but we will be adding some level 3 too so we dont have to worry out in the country.with electric vans I should be able to drop our hourly rate down about 30.00 hr

 

[edatoakrun]

Fairly good assessment to the fast charging standard debacle in the NYT.

Only a spokescumbag from GM could explain why not giving their EVs fast charging capability, many years after it is available, is actually for the convenience of the drivers of GM EVs.

WITH a steady flow of battery-powered vehicles arriving in showrooms, and charging infrastructure plans being announced almost daily, it would seem that the initial beachhead for electric vehicles is well established.

Yet the prospects for long-distance travel by electricity continue to be limited. Until a mechanism for replenishing a car’s batteries, either by charging them quickly or swapping them altogether, is in place, the appeal of electrics will be constrained. Even with cars for sale that offer 300-mile batteries, a cross-country vacation in a purely electric car remains impractical.

Several fast-charging solutions — typically, systems that can restore a battery to 80 percent of its capacity in 30 minutes or less — are already available, but the connectors and software used in these direct-current chargers are largely incompatible. As standards wars go, the debate over which will become the de facto industry leader is a small-scale version of the epic battle between Betamax and VHS or Apple versus Microsoft.

For drivers, this means that not only must they locate a high-speed charger when they travel, but it has to to be a specific type of charger — a factor that could hurt already struggling E.V. sales.

That incompatibility appears to be growing. In May, the Detroit Three and five German carmakers, including Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen, said they would create a charger with a two-prong connecter that could provide a fast direct-current charge, or a slower alternating-current charge, in a single combined plug.

The announcement angered companies here that have backed a rival technology. For several years, Nissan, Mitsubishi and many charger makers have developed a technology called CHAdeMO, which is installed in at least 1,500 fast chargers globally. Any new standard, these companies say, is unnecessary and ultimately destructive.

“CHAdeMO is already a very proven technology,” said Hideaki Watanabe, vice president in the Zero Emission business group at Nissan. “I don’t know why we need another standard.”

Adding to the confusion, Chinese electrical vehicle makers are creating their own fast chargers to be used in their home market. Tesla, the California-based maker of electric cars, has developed its own chargers as well.

The differences between standards are not insignificant. Cars like the Nissan Leaf have individual sockets for the different levels of charging.

The American-German technology, which is based on the SAE J1772 standard used in slower AC chargers, would allow carmakers to install only one combined socket on the car.

“We think that it is a convenience factor,” said Kevin M. Kelly, a spokesman for General Motors, who said the new fast chargers would not be ready until at least next year, when a Chevrolet Spark E.V. is to go on sale...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/02/automobiles/standards-for-fast-charging-are-getting-no-closer.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[edatoakrun]

http://www.chademo.com/wp/technology/strengths/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is a summary of CHAdeMO's position on it's advantages over other DC standards:

...Using a single connector combining both AC normal charging and DC fast charging could have meant a smaller geometry on the vehicle side, but might not result in the compact connector held by customers. The independent AC and DC inlets on vehicle side of CHAdeMO, contrary to what has been said, have a clear advantage of allowing a flexible vehicle design, including a setting up on each side or at the front of the vehicle...

Today, and on a daily basis, CAN is used as the preferred onboard communication network for all EVs as well as conbustible cars and thus recognized as the most reliable and proven solution over a number of years and across regions. Considering the advantage of being aligned with the operation of other vehicle control functions in the vehicle, CHAdeMO elected to remain within this known and trusted environment and use the CAN protocol therefore ensuring maximum safety and reliability to the users...

One of the key trade-offs when installing a fast charger is that the optimal power output depends on two factors: the cost of delivering the required power at the infrastructure side, and the charging time which is also dependent on the battery performance and state of the technology.

Bringing the required power to the charger includes both the cost of the hardware as well as the cost of connecting to the grid at the required level. The majority of utility companies around the world supported CHAdeMO’s view in eventually setting the most appropriate power level at 50KW.

In the future, as the price of the power units continues to decrease and the performance of the battery continues to improve, faster and higher power chargers be eventually necessary. In fact, the geometry of CHAdeMO connector is designed to allow for 200A, which means it can almost double its power level.

On the other hand, the installation of 20KW units require much less output power and can be an ideal charging solution in certain urban or commercial areas where access to higher power level is not readily available. This flexibility on both ends of the charging power spectrum demonstrates the clear competitive potential of the CHAdeMO in the market...

The mass deployment of Electric Vehicles very often goes hand in hand with an increasing share of renewable energy. The grid and the charging technology which connect the two worlds need to be ready to tackle this opportunity.

To make sure that this coordinated approach does not result in additional strain on the grid, smart grid initiatives are here to ensure some level of communication and intelligence is implemented and allow the charging to stop when it pushes demand beyond certain cost levels or supply capacity.

In this perspective, CHAdeMO is ready for Vehicle-to-Home systems and allows bi-directional charging, capable of addressing efficiently the future needs of the market...

 

[cwerdna]

Here's another win for CHAdeMO.

Thanks to a post over at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/16401-CHAdeMO-adapter-frustration/page39?p=459399&viewfull=1#post459399" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, a CHAdeMO adapter is coming this winter.

It's listed at http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s/products/chademo-adapter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

And, there's now a whopping 1 publicly accessible Frankenplug station in the US and still 0 cars available to use it. There will be 1 in December (Spark EV w/optional CCS) and the BMW i3 in 2Q '14.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... 1 accessible Frankenplug station in the US and still 0 cars available to use it. There will be 1 in December (Spark EV w/optional CCS) and the BMW i3 in 2Q '14.

Actually, there is at least one other besides the one here in San Diego, and it's in Tucson, Arizona. I'm not sure it actually works, however.

 

[scottf200]

I wonder if there will be a lot of Model Ss using the chademo chargers when a LEAF needs it tho? Typically there is only one chademo plug at a charging station it seems.

Adapter + Onboard Hardware Activation
For Model S without Supercharging enabled

After Model S delivery
Available online this winter
$2,900

To order before your Model S delivery, email [email protected].
$2,400

Adapter
For Model S with Supercharging enabled
Available online this winter
$1,000

 

[Berlino]

How many miles/kWh does the S get?

CHAdeMO stations charge at the rate of approximately 70 miles of range per hour of charge

I take it either the station, the adapter, or the vehicle are going to be ramping down the power?

 

[TonyWilliams]

It looks like they are limiting the adaptor to 25kW.

 

[jcan]

So the model S could be charging at a Chademo charger for 2 or 3 hours and still not be completely full while
the Leaf is only wanting a relatively small charge of half an hour....

I see the same situation going to occur with the Frankenplug as it has the added feature of slow charging!
If you can't take advantage of the fast charge it provides, just leave it connected anyways for a few hours
and you can still take advantage of the slow charge. Bugger anyone else that's around.... :roll:

I guess it's all right as this world is all about me :lol:

 

[scottf200]

It looks like they are limiting the adaptor to 25kW.

How many miles/kWh does the S get?
CHAdeMO stations charge at the rate of approximately 70 miles of range per hour of charge
I take it either the station, the adapter, or the vehicle are going to be ramping down the power?

I wonder if the infrastructure/installation of the chademo chargers are *mainly* setup for ~25kW max charging which seems to be what the LEAF (and i-MEV) does?

That is to say Tesla would not want to overtax those chargers and cause a problem. Read bad PR and backlash from the chademo community.

Charging Power as a Function of Time - EPRI LEAF
EPRI - Elect Power Research Institute - http://www.epri.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Battery Capacitor and State-of-Charge - EPRI LEAF