Chademo vs SAE

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scottf200 said:
TonyWilliams said:
It looks like they are limiting the adaptor to 25kW.

Berlino said:
How many miles/kWh does the S get?
CHAdeMO stations charge at the rate of approximately 70 miles of range per hour of charge
I take it either the station, the adapter, or the vehicle are going to be ramping down the power?

I wonder if the infrastructure/installation of the chademo chargers are *mainly* setup for ~25kW max charging which seems to be what the LEAF (and i-MEV) does?

That is to say Tesla would not want to overtax those chargers and cause a problem. Read bad PR and backlash from the chademo community.

I can tell you that with all the public charging stations I am involved with from the utility side, the electrical infrastructure is sized for maximum continuous load. There is no averaging or load diversity calculations employed when it comes to feeding the stations.

So a Chademo DC Fast charge station could put out 44kW (Nissan) or 48 kW (Blink) all day long and not have a problem with the utility distribution system...

I saw the 70 mph figure as well on the Tesla store site, and it doesn't seem correct. Unless for some reason they've chosen to operate at just a fraction of what the Chademo station is capable of...
 
Randy said:
scottf200 said:
TonyWilliams said:
It looks like they are limiting the adaptor to 25kW.
Berlino said:
How many miles/kWh does the S get?
CHAdeMO stations charge at the rate of approximately 70 miles of range per hour of charge
I take it either the station, the adapter, or the vehicle are going to be ramping down the power?
I wonder if the infrastructure/installation of the chademo chargers are *mainly* setup for ~25kW max charging which seems to be what the LEAF (and i-MEV) does?
That is to say Tesla would not want to overtax those chargers and cause a problem. Read bad PR and backlash from the chademo community.
I can tell you that with all the public charging stations I am involved with from the utility side, the electrical infrastructure is sized for maximum continuous load. There is no averaging or load diversity calculations employed when it comes to feeding the stations. So a Chademo DC Fast charge station could put out 44kW (Nissan) or 48 kW (Blink) all day long and not have a problem with the utility distribution system... I saw the 70 mph figure as well on the Tesla store site, and it doesn't seem correct. Unless for some reason they've chosen to operate at just a fraction of what the Chademo station is capable of...
My point was also related to what actually does the LEAF draw. The graphs two post up indicate it is ~25kW.

SO if all the chademo chargers are only really being "tested" or used at ~25kW then perhaps Telsa did not want to be a 44kW/48kW tester and risk problems that would be blamed on Telsa (since the charge works "fine" for all the LEAFs) !!! Hope that makes some sense or at least explains one of my points better.
Another interesting graph about i-MiEV and LEAF charging with a Fuji charger.

Google search: charging power leaf chademo chart 80% filetypedf

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Eric Loveday at InsideEvs made the following comment, http://insideevs.com/tesla-confirms-chademo-adapter-for-us-coming-this-winter-pricing-starts-at-1000/#comment-174950" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SAE is not possible, according to Tesla…Communication issues can’t be overcome…at least not with the Model S

Is this true? That would be big news and would be a serious drawback for CCS.
 
dm33 said:
Eric Loveday at InsideEvs made the following comment, http://insideevs.com/tesla-confirms-chademo-adapter-for-us-coming-this-winter-pricing-starts-at-1000/#comment-174950" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SAE is not possible, according to Tesla…Communication issues can’t be overcome…at least not with the Model S

Is this true? That would be big news and would be a serious drawback for CCS.

No.

See follow-up correction
 
scottf200 said:
My point was also related to what actually does the LEAF draw. The graphs two post up indicate it is ~25kW.

SO if all the chademo chargers are only really being "tested" or used at ~25kW then perhaps Telsa did not want to be a 44kW/48kW tester and risk problems that would be blamed on Telsa (since the charge works "fine" for all the LEAFs) !!! Hope that makes some sense or at least explains one of my points better.

I don't know about this 25kW number. I know that I can get 50% of my SOC back in about 20 minutes, no problem. So, let's say that's 10 KWhs. That's 30 KW right there:

https://www.google.com/search?q=10+kwh+%2F+20+minutes+in+kw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And that's an average over the entire time, but we know that power drops off as SOC rises. So I'd say it has to start off far above 25KW. Probably pretty close to the max around 44-48 KW.
 
pkulak said:
scottf200 said:
My point was also related to what actually does the LEAF draw. The graphs two post up indicate it is ~25kW.
SO if all the chademo chargers are only really being "tested" or used at ~25kW then perhaps Telsa did not want to be a 44kW/48kW tester and risk problems that would be blamed on Telsa (since the charge works "fine" for all the LEAFs) !!! Hope that makes some sense or at least explains one of my points better.
I don't know about this 25kW number. I know that I can get 50% of my SOC back in about 20 minutes, no problem. So, let's say that's 10 KWhs. That's 30 KW right there:
https://www.google.com/search?q=10+kwh+%2F+20+minutes+in+kw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And that's an average over the entire time, but we know that power drops off as SOC rises. So I'd say it has to start off far above 25KW. Probably pretty close to the max around 44-48 KW.
But what SOC are you starting at is the real question in my mind. It looks like in the graphs above they started at ~35% and it was not much over 25kW.

A Tesla battery charging system with active cooling and much larger battery could probably tell the charge to give close to the chademo max I would think and for a long time. I was just saying I don't know if the installations have been tested like that since a LEAF would not.
 
Interesting story from the front lines of the "standards battle" in Korea.

My guess is that the open "standard" will be determined by whichever one sells the most DC capable BEVs/PHEVs.

And in Korea, it sounds like Hyundai (CHAdeMO), may dominate the market just as Nissan already has in America.


Charging Standards Quick Electric Vehicle Charging Battle Just Beginning in Korea

Global electric vehicle companies have started to compete with each other for charging methods in Korea.

As GM Korea Company unveils its Chevy Spark EV with the SAE Combo DC fast charging system on August 27, the 2014 Kia RAY's CHAdeMO standard and Renault Samsung SM3 Z.E.'s AC charging method begin to vie with each other for the domestic standard of electric vehicle (EV) charging infrastructure.

With the release of the Chevy Spark EV, GM's Korean subsidiary announced that it has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with the Ministry of Environment and manufacturers of electric car chargers. The company also revealed its intention to supply its own EV charging stations.

A spokesperson for GM Korea said, "We decided to develop and sell our own fast-charging equipment, since there is no charging infrastructure in Korea," adding, "Details will be explained in our presentation."

The Ministry of Environment is proceeding with its second project for EV fast-charging stations where both the CHAdeMO quick charging method and the AC charging method are available.

But the ministry is planning to review the 2014 project by considering market situations and technical problems for DC Fast charging with a combined charging system.

There are four standards for EV fast-charging in the global market, including the CHAdeMO method developed by Tokyo Electric Power Company, the SAE combo charging standard adopted by GM and BMW, China's system of DC normal charging for battery swaps, and the AC charging method chosen by Renault Samsung and Toyota.

These electric-vehicle charging systems are fighting for global dominance.

Japan's CHAdeMO is leading in infrastructure. But the influence of the SAE DC fast charging and AC charging systems in the entire EV market is huge.

American and European companies seem to be joining forces to prevent Japan's market dominance. In addition, China is another player in the market since the State Grid Corporation of China (SGCC) proposed its own standard by modifying CHAdeMO.

Each of these standards have both advantages and disadvantages.

SAE DC Combo Type 1 has an AC connector that is used in slow charging, as well as a DC connector that is utilized in fast charging, in a power inlet socket. Since both slow and fast charging is possible through a single socket, it has higher space efficiency. However, the Type 1 sends and receives charging information with a car online. And the frequency used in the Type 1 interferes with the Advanced Metering Infrastructure (AMI) that the Korea Electric Power Corporation (KEPCO) built nationwide. This is the biggest obstacle to the introduction of this method in Korea.

In contrast, CHAdeMO has different power inlet sockets for AC and DC. Despite lower space efficiency, there is no concern for interference with radio waves, because information travels through wires. A Controller Area Network (CAN) is used for communication. Even though each country has a different battery management system, each system can be made compatible with the others when the source of the program is made public.

The system using AC can be charged without AC/DC converters. Since it does not have any adapters, it is difficult to adjust to each country's power supply method.

In Korea, auto manufacturers are conducting psychological warfare on quick charging methods for battery-powered electric vehicles.

Supporters of the combo charging system complain that Hyundai Motors, which uses CHAdeMO, is blocking their market entry, while Hyundai says that any companies that aspire to export their products need to adjust to the domestic situation...
- See more at: http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/article/1327/charging-standards-quick-electric-vehicle-charging-battle-just-beginning-korea#sthash.7Tuco1rr.dpuf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Seems to me that CHAdeMO is so far ahead... that the rest of these posturing idiots should just get a clue... They have brought the price down dramatically since intro... they have already demo'd vehicle to grid tech... there are installs all over the world of this cool, useful tech... including cars that can boost each other to help one another get home...

SAE Combo is at least 2 to 3 years from catching up... GM isn't even selling the cars worldwide yet... or bundling the port with the damn few cars they have sold. When you look at the existing problems that original SAE AC had... melting connectors etc... they definitely have a long way to go.

Look out cause GM is trying to crush the momentum again!
 
jsongster said:
Look out cause GM is trying to crush the momentum again!
Seems like a joke when GM is trying to stop deployment of CHAdeMO when they're selling only 100 Spark EVs in California, no plan to sell them nationwide, and still haven't even shipped a single CCS equipped car.

Yet for the tiny number of potential Spark EVs, then want everyone to stop rolling out CHAdeMO?

Its a bad joke. The only plausible explanation is that GM simply wants to stall EV adoption like they did with the EV1.
 
They should get the thing working first... Add retrofit them to the volt... promise 5 minute charges... or something like that... and start selling the Sparky everywhere...

I don't like GM much since they tried to rob me on a stall prone 50mpg Geo Metro way back when... and had to buy it back from me. Harassed me for weeks over the phone at work trying to pressure me into settling before the arbitration. Absolutely creepy... Then there was the EV1 debacle that GM, Honda participated in... I certainly don't want them to go broke... glad we saved all the jobs in the region etc. etc... but how about they actually start leading from the front not the back.

Tesla and Nissan took the real risks to build this market sincerely... and all the other guys can do is FUD or Fear Uncertainty Doubt to slow or trip them... what cowards.

CHAdeMO connectors are somewhat clunky... but they work very well... the same has certainly not been proven by the SAE crowd.

Kudos for Hyundai!
 
1500 bucks for the SAE Combo frankenplug option.... on the Spark... wow... if they can't get the price below 700... what's the point.
 
dm33 said:
Its a bad joke. The only plausible explanation is that GM simply wants to stall EV adoption like they did with the EV1.

This is why I will NEVER buy an EV from GM (I haven't bought anything else from them either).
 
Valdemar said:
Is this first SAE plug in SoCAL?
New_Doc_2_1.jpg
Skip the SAE plug - looks like someone else finally implemented by-the-minute charging for the L2 stations and the DCQC rate is half the eVgo a la carte rate - and you can pay with a credit card instead of getting a membership!
 
So... in Japan... the BMW i3 has CHAdeMO up front and SAE hidden under the hood...

And we need to retrofit all our existing chargers why again?

They should have at least found a better spot than under the hood... really kludgey from the Kings of Engineering of Germany.
 
drees said:
Skip the SAE plug - looks like someone else finally implemented by-the-minute charging for the L2 stations and the DCQC rate is half the eVgo a la carte rate - and you can pay with a credit card instead of getting a membership!

Do you have to be on the lookout for zombies though, now the Governor has bailed and all the former residents are with Rick at the prison?
 
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