Do we really need level 2 public charging?

[Stunt822]

IMHO L2 is absolutely needed at larger shopping/entartainment facilities. This enables people to use drive Leaf to somewhat remote places.

Again IHMO practical roundtrip range of Leaf with family in it - 70 miles. So any shoppiong place more than 35 miles away from my house (assume I depart with 100% charge, which is rare) - will force me to drive my ICE. By all means I will be keeping my passengers from hearing "LOW BATTERY WARNING" voice in the car while away from home. This creates bad perception.

And I already exposed my wife to "your destination may be out of reach" message when we drove to aqua park, but couldn't depart with 100%.

So, L2 are required at malls, features, aquaparks, museums, etc.

 

[abasile]

By all means I will be keeping my passengers from hearing "LOW BATTERY WARNING" voice in the car while away from home. This creates bad perception.

Indeed, that is another good reason for public charging! So far, the only time my wife has heard the "low battery" warning is when we pulled into our driveway after a 50 mile drive from a friend's house (we charged at the friend's house but not along the way) that culminated in 5000 feet of elevation gain. That almost doesn't count since we were in our own driveway.

 

[TRONZ]

Right away we have to be careful of not setting the infrastructure bar too low. Public L2 is nice but L3 is what we really need to be demanding and willing to pay for. I would like to suggest that getting (1) L3 station installed is actually much easier, faster and more useful as an EV "beach head" than getting (100) L2 stations installed. I have done Construction Administration, you could not pay me enough to manage 100 micro projects compared to managing 1 good sized project. Micro projects have all the problems of good sized projects... but no budget (billable hours) to get anything done. They are doomed from the start. IMHO, this sounds like why Ecotality can't get anything done as well. They are only focused on playing with (L2) crumbs and not noticing the (L3) meal sitting in front of them.

Early L3 stations based on a real business model and dedicated site is a great opportunity. An L3 business approach quickly captures the largest amount of customers and coverage while also blowing up that little notion (see OP) that EV drivers just want free fuel. If you think demand is vague then scale the business carefully and have a monopoly for awhile. If demand is high, you were first! Drop in more L3 units and expand to other sites. With a preliminary net of real EV charging stations done, just leave L2 for misc business interests to come and ask for. If they want to provide L2 as a "reward" for spending hours out shopping with them, then so be it.

 

[smkettner]

snip... IMHO, this sounds like why Ecotality can't get anything done as well..... snip

I completely agree. The big government contracts should be installing L3. Possibly providing free equipment for L2 but let the local owner manage the project of getting it installed.

 

[wsbca]

IMHO L2 is absolutely needed at larger shopping/entartainment facilities. This enables people to use drive Leaf to somewhat remote places.
.....
So, L2 are required at malls, features, aquaparks, museums, etc.

I agree that L2 could be extremely useful to widen the circle from which such facilities can draw customers.

The problem I see is that for this to hold true for any non-trivial increase in EV usage, the number of chargers will have to be massively increased over what seems to be in store. The fact is that right now we early adopters are a nit on a gnat's knee - we are in the noise. One or Two or even Ten L2's at a Best Buy or a Costco or a stadium or a beach or in Balboa Park is a nice feel-good gesture but isn't going to be any better than Zero if and when there are actually any significant number of Leafs/Foci/iMiEVs etc. on the road. Already we're able to fairly easily saturate the non-ICE'd spots in Balboa Park, and there's a turf war at LAX and so on....and there are hardly any of us!

I'd love to think I could drive to Disneyland in our Leaf someday (83 miles each way), but they're going to need a massive array of EVSE's and/or human plug attendants or some sort of bulletproof reservation system for that to even be even remotely conceivable. I just don't see it happening for a while. L2 is going to be a nice perk if you get lucky and one is open when you get there (wherever there may be), but you won't be able to plan trips around it until the time when the ratio of EVSE equipped parking spaces to regular spaces is much higher - so much higher that there's turnover of the spaces at at rate similar to the turnover of regular parking spaces. It should happen eventually, but it's going to take a few years of $8/gallon gas to get things started.

The same problem, I believe, applies to L3. Right now, if there were the promised handful of L3's in San Diego county (50?), we few hundred or so early adopters would be absolutely loving it. Worst case you might have the fun of encountering one or two other Leafers and everyone would be chatting and laughing and sharing and slurping down the juice they needed and getting on their way. But when there are [pick some big number] Leafs on the road, those mere 50 L3s are going to be reminiscent of the gas lines of '73 and '79, only as if each of those lines was for one pump that was really slow. And so, people are going to mainly just charge at home. Nobody's going to wait around for an L3 - in a 12 hour period an L3 would be useful to about 25 drivers who are on empty, assuming all 25 arrive perfectly staggered over that timeframe, which is a ridiculous assumption. 25 vehicles!! That is a ridiculously small number. (yes, not everyone will need the full 25 minutes...but still, I'm sure you see my point).

I think we need/want/should push for L2 and L3 charging, I just think that realistically it's going to take a lot more of it than is planned for it to be of any significant value.

Maybe someone has a moment to do the math - figure out how many "miles per minute of fueling" are available from the existing gasoline infrastructure, and how many would be available from, say, the proposed EV project distribution of L2/L3. How does that compare to the hoped for ratio of EVs to ICEs at whatever point in time?

 

[jkirkebo]

Studies from Japan indicates that the need for L3s are one charger per about 200 cars. So if you sell 5000 cars in an area, about 25 L3s are needed to serve them.

If a L3 charger costs $60k to install, that is a cost of $300 per car. Thus, adding a tax of $300 on all EVs with QC ports will finance all the L3s needed.

Of course, sparsely populated areas might need more L3s.

 

[TRONZ]

If a L3 charger costs $60k to install,

Let's remember that the actual cost of L3 is very speculative at this point. Even L2 costs vary wildly with commercial units costing 2x-5x as much as residential units. But L2 has been (sorta) installed in the real world so we at least have a baseline comparison to work from. If viable commercial L2 costs $4-$10K then what "should-could-would" viable L3 cost? Since L3 can roughly service about 12x the number of EV's in any given 24 hours (4 vs 48) I would suggest $48-$120K is a "competitive" L3 cost. And that's without quantifying the cost advantage of a 20 min charge vs a 6 hour charge.

Nissans $20K L3 unit is looking VERY interesting in a business model.

 

[TomT]

+1!

Right away we have to be careful of not setting the infrastructure bar too low. Public L2 is nice but L3 is what we really need to be demanding and willing to pay for. I would like to suggest that getting (1) L3 station installed is actually much easier, faster and more useful as an EV "beach head" than getting (100) L2 stations installed. I have done Construction Administration, you could not pay me enough to manage 100 micro projects compared to managing 1 good sized project. Micro projects have all the problems of good sized projects... but no budget (billable hours) to get anything done. They are doomed from the start. IMHO, this sounds like why Ecotality can't get anything done as well. They are only focused on playing with (L2) crumbs and not noticing the (L3) meal sitting in front of them.

Early L3 stations based on a real business model and dedicated site is a great opportunity. An L3 business approach quickly captures the largest amount of customers and coverage while also blowing up that little notion (see OP) that EV drivers just want free fuel. If you think demand is vague then scale the business carefully and have a monopoly for awhile. If demand is high, you were first! Drop in more L3 units and expand to other sites. With a preliminary net of real EV charging stations done, just leave L2 for misc business interests to come and ask for. If they want to provide L2 as a "reward" for spending hours out shopping with them, then so be it.

 

[amtoro]

I agree with points from both sides of the debate:

L2's at places where you stop just for a very short time might not sound extremely appealing, but could increase foot traffic for the businesses and it is amortizable as a marketing expense (not to mention some state's tax credits)

L3's would be great, but they are expensive, so 15 or so L2's instead of a lonely L3 sounds like a good plan. Still, a few scattered L3's would work as the benefit of changing your route to "fill-up" is supported by the amount of power you can get in a few minutes.

However... when they want to charge drivers $3.00 for using the L2 for one hour like Atlanta's mayor announced today, is going to keep those charging stations from being used except for an emergency situation.

 

[DaveEV]

However... when they want to charge drivers $3.00 for using the L2 for one hour like Atlanta's major announced today, is going to keep those charging stations from being used except for an emergency situation.

Ouch - with the 3.3 kW charger in the LEAF (3.8 kW from the wall) that's about $0.80 / kWh. I would absolutely refuse pay that much to charge unless an emergency. In fact, I'd be tempted to park right next to EVSE and NOT charge just to make a point.

 

[amtoro]

...and NOT charge just to make a point.

+1, and maybe have a sun shield saying exactly that.

 

[abasile]

Maybe someone has a moment to do the math - figure out how many "miles per minute of fueling" are available from the existing gasoline infrastructure, and how many would be available from, say, the proposed EV project distribution of L2/L3. How does that compare to the hoped for ratio of EVs to ICEs at whatever point in time?

Clearly, liquid fuels allow vehicles to be "recharged" far more quickly. However, the length of time it takes to charge EVs is mitigated by the following:

1. The great majority of charging is done at home. This greatly lessens the competition for scarce public charging. Gasoline cars, on the other hand, must always be refueled at public places.
2. The cost of installing and maintaining charging infrastructure is far less than that of a gasoline pump. Installing rows of L2 charging docks would not be cost prohibitive for a number of large retailers/organizations/offices, particularly if planned as part of new construction.
3. Organizations can choose to charge for EV parking/charging. For L2, something like $1 or $2 per hour seems reasonable. This could serve to discourage folks from plugging in if they don't really need to charge (though admittedly that could result in more gasoline-powered PHEV miles). This could also help in recouping some or all of the installation costs.

Also, I would add that even as battery technology improves, costs drop, and greater range becomes possible, public charging (L1,L2,L3) will continue to have great value. In 2018 or so, rather than purchasing a 200 mile range BEV for about $30K, many buyers might prefer to buy the same car for $22K with 100 miles of range, or perhaps spend even less on a used 2011 LEAF. That could especially apply to families with multiple cars.

 

[rpmdk]

Also, I would add that even as battery technology improves, costs drop, and greater range becomes possible, public charging (L1,L2,L3) will continue to have great value. In 2018 or so, rather than purchasing a 200 mile range BEV for about $30K, many buyers might prefer to buy the same car for $22K with 100 miles of range, or perhaps spend even less on a used 2011 LEAF. That could especially apply to families with multiple cars.

That's a good point - I have been thinking everyone would be purchasing and driving more extended range EVs - making the charging infrastructure much less important - maybe there will be a market for econo-EVs with shorter range.

I myself will definitely pay for the longer range - I love my LEAF but I could sure use 50% more range.

 

[gbarry42]

There's an issue of perception, aside from the practical ones.

Having a charging infrastructure will make people more comfortable when thinking about buying an EV. Sure, they will discover they don't really need them, but telling them this doesn't seem to stick. So, fine, put some EVSE's out there.

Any sizable store or chain can benefit from being associated with charging stations. How much money do they spend to get their name on a billboard, or on a sports stadium? For $8k or so, they may only attract two or three EV owners to their store, but those owners then post their experiences on line and they tell their friends about it. That's the kind of advertising it is said you can't buy. How many of us in California have now heard of Fred Meyer? (found in Washington). Or Cracker Barrel (in Tennessee). Just because of some "green stunt"...

Similarly, I've decided that if the public thinks GM's Volt is an EV, fine. I want them to think EV's are here, and now! Accuracy is secondary!

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Right away we have to be careful of not setting the infrastructure bar too low. Public L2 is nice but L3 is what we really need to be demanding and willing to pay for. I would like to suggest that getting (1) L3 station installed is actually much easier, faster and more useful as an EV "beach head" than getting (100) L2 stations installed. I have done Construction Administration, you could not pay me enough to manage 100 micro projects compared to managing 1 good sized project. Micro projects have all the problems of good sized projects... but no budget (billable hours) to get anything done. They are doomed from the start. IMHO, this sounds like why Ecotality can't get anything done as well. They are only focused on playing with (L2) crumbs and not noticing the (L3) meal sitting in front of them.

Early L3 stations based on a real business model and dedicated site is a great opportunity. An L3 business approach quickly captures the largest amount of customers and coverage while also blowing up that little notion (see OP) that EV drivers just want free fuel. If you think demand is vague then scale the business carefully and have a monopoly for awhile. If demand is high, you were first! Drop in more L3 units and expand to other sites. With a preliminary net of real EV charging stations done, just leave L2 for misc business interests to come and ask for. If they want to provide L2 as a "reward" for spending hours out shopping with them, then so be it.

+1 well stated. I think the network should grow out as an L3 skeleton with L2 fleshing out where needed. I just hate to think down the line that people will point to all the L2 charging stations being put in and not being used as "yet another example" of EV dreamers wasting public funding. The port orchard L2 chargers placed near a ferry dock is an example of a misconception, IMHO, that people coming off a ferry there need L2, like they are going to stop for a several hour charge on their way out to the coast or something. Put in L3 and people will come off the ferries and pay for a quick charge because it gives them a leg up to trips out to the Peninsula, gas free.

g

 

[KeiJidosha]

There's an issue of perception, aside from the practical ones.

Having a charging infrastructure will make people more comfortable when thinking about buying an EV. Sure, they will discover they don't really need them, but telling them this doesn't seem to stick. So, fine, put some EVSE's out there.

The utility of public charging is not perception. For me, it has enabled 10% of my trips, and 20% of my 42,000 EV miles. Those miles would otherwise be ICE. The EV Project, Costco, and LAX charger droughts are pushing me toward an EREV or hybrid. I may end up in a Volt instead of an LEAF if the drought continues.

 

[N952JL]

I agree with points from both sides of the debate:
However... when they want to charge drivers $3.00 for using the L2 for one hour like Atlanta's major announced today, is going to keep those charging stations from being used except for an emergency situation.

There is no reason for such fees. Fees should reflect the actual cost. I'm not sure about business rates, but home rates are about $0.10 KWh. If the city were to put in charging parking meters the cost should be: so much per hr times the number of hrs parked plus some much per KWh used to charge. The rate per KWh should be the actual cost plus maybe 50% to cover maintenance and investment cost.

Public L2 chargers should be a locations where people go and spend a lot of time. Theme parks where you spend the entire day like Six Flags or Disney come to mind. Major shopping malls where people spend half a day shopping, or where people go to eat dinner and a movie. I bet a lot of us would pay for valet parking if it also included the charge.

L3 charging should be at Gas Station type locations. In the south there is a truck stop call Flying J. That type of operations. Some place where you can pull off, plug in for 30 mins and take a quick meal break. The location would not be like gas pumps, but a dedicated EV charging parking lot. And yes you would need maybe four to start with. Then grow them as demand increases.

 

[EricH]

Public L2 chargers should be a locations where people go and spend a lot of time. Theme parks where you spend the entire day like Six Flags or Disney come to mind. Major shopping malls where people spend half a day shopping, or where people go to eat dinner and a movie. I bet a lot of us would pay for valet parking if it also included the charge.

L3 charging should be at Gas Station type locations. In the south there is a truck stop call Flying J. That type of operations. Some place where you can pull off, plug in for 30 mins and take a quick meal break. The location would not be like gas pumps, but a dedicated EV charging parking lot. And yes you would need maybe four to start with. Then grow them as demand increases.

Agreed. L2 is a way of 'stealing' business from a competitor.. I will drive past a CVS to visit a Walgreen with free L2, or drive past an Edwards theater to see a movie at an AMC with free L2. But the times that I *need* any L2 to get home are very, very rare (the only time I've used opportunity charging make a trip possible, was a stop at South Coast Plaza... but I'd have gone to Fashion Island in a heartbeat if they were the only mall in the area with L2. I just can't see ever, ever paying for L2 charging. It's a convenience where a merchant is willing to pay about $1/hour (tops) to keep me there, or attract me from a merchant. Since I get a $1 'rebate' every time I make an Open Table reservation, this seems to be a reasonable merchant-subsidy, no?

I would expect to pay for L3, due to the cost of the infrastructure, as well as the fact that in 25 minutes, I don't expect to spend much other time/money in the vicinity. I also would only use it in outlying areas (Thousand Oaks, Camarillo, Oceanside, or Riverside/Rancho Cucamonga) around LA. But I'd probably pay $5-$10 to be able to get my Leaf to Santa Barbara, San Diego, or Big Bear without a lengthy L2 stopover somewhere.

 

[GPowers]

Would be nice if gas station started installing L3 and malls and restaurants installed L2.

Here is a question, If you needed a charge and someone else was plugged in to an L2 station and there was a parking space next to the L2 station, and the Leafs charging lights indicating the charge was complete, would you un-plug that persons Leaf and charge yours?

 

[smkettner]

Here is a question, If you needed a charge and someone else was plugged in to an L2 station and there was a parking space next to the L2 station, and the Leafs charging lights indicating the charge was complete, would you un-plug that persons Leaf and charge yours?

Not unless there was a note granting permission.