How easy would be a battery upgrade in the future?

[surfingslovak]

I hope Nissan takes the mindset of being like Apple and other tech leaders. Tesla is taking the Apple approach of fanatical support and end user loyalty. This is what made Sun, SGI, and Apple so successful in Silicon Valley. The first core owners prime the pump.

+1!

Nissan has recently opened an office in the SF Bay Area, so let's hope that they'll "get it". They had a very successful launch with the Leaf, and it would be a shame if they missed the second part of the equation.

 

[Volusiano]

IMHO, I don't see Better Places biz plan working. Making the battery subsystem field upgrade-able will be very difficult. Plus, the cars will be more expensive to build... look at what Apple had to do with their Macbook pro/airs. The forklift industry continues to struggle with battery swaps in factories for continuous operations... very challenging and expensive.

Better Place's business plan can only work if there's big commitment from the government and the auto industry to subsidize and support that kind of infrastructure. Either that or until the EV market becomes big enough to garner critical mass to enable support of such expensive infrastructure.

But it's not impossible. It's the ultimate long term vision after battery technology has matured enough and EVs are not a rare sight anymore, because it completes the solution to the range issue that has been impeding the rapid adoption of EVs in the market place (aside from battery technology maturity).

That's why they're not starting right away in the US, but instead in smaller places like Israel and Denmark where they can get total buy-in from those governments to wean their nations from oil-dependency as quickly as possible.

 

[smkettner]

The swap is easy.... we just need a battery.

 

[EVDRIVER]

There still seems to be quite a bit of confusion related to upgrading the stock charger. The wires from the AC side AND to the pack are not adequate for a larger charger. The cost to replace these harnesses and labor would be very expensive not to mention the software and other upgrades needed. Don't count on any charger upgrade to swap the existing charger. The best option for the LEAF is something via the L3 harness side.

 

[surfingslovak]

There still seems to be quite a bit of confusion related to upgrading the stock charger. The wires from the AC side AND to the pack are not adequate for a larger charger. The cost to replace these harnesses and labor would be very expensive no to mention the software and other upgrades needed. Don't count on any charger upgrade to swap the existing charger. The best option for the LEAF is something via the L3 harness side.

Agreed. The problem with L3 is the availability of the Chademo plug. I don't know if you tried sourcing a J1772 plug, but it's quite difficult to requisition them in low volume at a good price and from a reputable manufacturer. The J1772 is rather mundane when compared to the Chademo plug.

I haven't examined charger wiring and its upgradeability, and I can only speculate, but I've heard that there are very knowledgeable folks looking into it and I wouldn't completely dismiss this possibility.

 

[EVDRIVER]

There still seems to be quite a bit of confusion related to upgrading the stock charger. The wires from the AC side AND to the pack are not adequate for a larger charger. The cost to replace these harnesses and labor would be very expensive no to mention the software and other upgrades needed. Don't count on any charger upgrade to swap the existing charger. The best option for the LEAF is something via the L3 harness side.

Agreed. The problem with L3 is the availability of the Chademo plug. I don't know if you tried sourcing a J1772 plug, but it's quite difficult to requisition them in low volume at a good price and from a reputable manufacturer. The J1772 is rather mundane when compared to the Chademo plug.

I haven't examined charger wiring and its upgradeability, and I can only speculate, but I've heard that there are very knowledgeable folks looking into it and I wouldn't completely dismiss this possibility.

The plug is not needed, one can install a charger on the car and remove the L3 harness or connect in in parallel.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The swap is easy.... we just need a battery.

Exactly. There's about 8 bolts holding that battery in. About 3 more than hold the wheel on the car. Normal automotive jacks lift the car. A jack specifically designed for the battery is available from Nissan, with alignment pins. Both would be easy to replicate, and not very expensive.

There are two big orange electrical connections at the front of the battery. I could easily see this done without a fancy automated machine in 5 to 10 minutes with simple air powered tools and the human hand. I'll even bet that two men could do it in 3 minutes.

How a battery swapping operation would need multiple millions of dollars only makes sense if they have to stock (and pay for) millions of dollars in batteries. A normal auto service station (getting very rare in California) is fully equipped to do this. Quick oil change shops could, also.

Any shop starting out to do this for Nissan LEAF's could start pretty small. For the price of one Eaton $50,000 quick charger, I'd think a shop could stock 5-ish LEAF batteries. The real question is what would consumers want?

 

[Herm]

There still seems to be quite a bit of confusion related to upgrading the stock charger. The wires from the AC side AND to the pack are not adequate for a larger charger.

I would also prefer using the existing L3 port of you want more than 3.3kw charging.. but upgrading the harnesses should not be that bad, just run the new cables in parallel with the old ones... 3 for the AC side and 2 for the DC side.

 

[EVDRIVER]

There still seems to be quite a bit of confusion related to upgrading the stock charger. The wires from the AC side AND to the pack are not adequate for a larger charger.

I would also prefer using the existing L3 port of you want more than 3.3kw charging.. but upgrading the harnesses should not be that bad, just run the new cables in parallel with the old ones... 3 for the AC side and 2 for the DC side.

After you remove the seats, pack, charger, cooling lines, etc, etc. What do you think the cost of those harnesses would be form Nissan?

 

[TRONZ]

IMHO battery swapping sounds simple but is a profoundly complex solution made meaningless when better batteries arrive. I mean with millions of electrical outlets/infrastructure we can't even get public L2 chargers installed for a $100 million grant. How many L3 stations could be done for the cost of a single swapping station?

 

[EVDRIVER]

The swap is easy.... we just need a battery.

Exactly. There's about 8 bolts holding that battery in. About 3 more than hold the wheel on the car. Normal automotive jacks lift the car. A jack specifically designed for the battery is available from Nissan, with alignment pins. Both would be easy to replicate, and not very expensive.

There are two big orange electrical connections at the front of the battery. I could easily see this done without a fancy automated machine in 5 to 10 minutes with simple air powered tools and the human hand. I'll even bet that two men could do it in 3 minutes.

How a battery swapping operation would need multiple millions of dollars only makes sense if they have to stock (and pay for) millions of dollars in batteries. A normal auto service station (getting very rare in California) is fully equipped to do this. Quick oil change shops could, also.

Any shop starting out to do this for Nissan LEAF's could start pretty small. For the price of one Eaton $50,000 quick charger, I'd think a shop could stock 5-ish LEAF batteries. The real question is what would consumers want?

Have you ever removed a non-swappable EV pack? It's not exactly that easy. It's not that difficult with the correct equipment to replace a LEAF pack with a new one but no one is going to make it a "swappable" system in the present form. Don't forget to do the pressure test on the pack as well.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Have you ever removed a non-swappable EV pack? It's not exactly that easy. It's not that difficult with the correct equipment to replace a LEAF pack with a new one but no one is going to make it a "swappable" system in the present form. Don't forget to do the pressure test on the pack as well.

First, no I haven't removed the battery. But, I have removed far heavier things from equipment that wasn't nearly as easy to work on. I'm not a neophyte at heavy vehicle maintenance (I grew up in the family welding/machine shop in farming/ranching/oil country).

But, I'm not following your comment, "it's not exactly that easy" and then say that it's not difficult with correct equipment.

Obviously, to remove the battery... USE THE CORRECT EQUIPMENT. There's very little of it, and it's specified quite clearly in the maintenance manual.

Personally, I don't think there is a future ever, in the USA, for swapping batteries. As batteries get better, chargers better, and infrastructure developed, I just don't see the market.

But, my discussion was centered around the fact that I don't see millions of dollars to get in that business. It would not have to start with 100's of batteries in stock. The "tools" to do the job, and the labor skill set to perform the work are low in cost.

 

[Nekota]

I hope the battery swapping isn't too easy - I have see a number of catalytic thefts, car wheel thefts and if the battery can be dropped too easily, it would be an attractive target. Since there is not a resale market for EV batteries, it's not likely today but in the future and if things go well with EV acceptance this could be a problem. Instead of stealing the car, it's most expensive part would be an attractive substitute.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I hope the battery swapping isn't too easy...... Instead of stealing the car, it's most expensive part would be an attractive substitute.

They steal the solar panels off your roof in California. Panels at $1000 a pop with no lock, and four tiny bolts holding them on.

 

[Smidge204]

I hope Nissan takes the mindset of being like Apple and other tech leaders.

...making something that's technologically mediocre and charging 3 or 4 times what it's actually worth only to come out with a new version a year later to add features it should have had in the first place? :lol: Stockholm syndrome is a tough business model to develop!

Personally, I don't think there is a future ever, in the USA, for swapping batteries. As batteries get better, chargers better, and infrastructure developed, I just don't see the market.

It'll be a niche market, but I can see one. Especially for fleets where you already have a central location all your vehicles come to, just like they're doing in Tokyo with the electric taxis. For a fleet operator this would be an investment that pays off over time, so it's more likely to happen. If they ever go public swap stations certainly won't be as numerous as gas stations, that's for sure! At best you'd have them at the outskirts of cities on the major highways.
=Smidge=

 

[Pipcecil]

I just don't see battery swapping being applicable at all unless its a fleet type setting. Firstly, you have no idea of the health of your new battery. I am sure the battery swamp person has a range to work in (say like at least 80% capacity remaining), but what if you need one thats new? or better taken care of? There is no guarentee anywhere.

Secondly, its more of an issue with supply. Lets say most people drive EV's, do you think there is enough to stock thousands (probably 10's of thousands) swamp places accross the US with extra batteries (you need at least a few per place incase you have a run demand and can't charge the other ones fast enough) for every vehicle type. Just now you would need a tesla, mitsubishi, nissan, and GM battery. Plus the many more to come. These car companies are barely able to have enough batteries to produce a 10k cars a year (and usually less), do you think they would double that production (even if they could!) just to have those batteries sit around in some swap place waiting for a car to drive by?

The supply is just too small to have that many extras.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I hope Nissan takes the mindset of being like Apple and other tech leaders.

...making something that's technologically mediocre and charging 3 or 4 times what it's actually worth only to come out with a new version a year later to add features it should have had in the first place? :lol: Stockholm syndrome is a tough business model to develop!

Personally, I don't think there is a future ever, in the USA, for swapping batteries. As batteries get better, chargers better, and infrastructure developed, I just don't see the market.

It'll be a niche market, but I can see one. Especially for fleets where you already have a central location all your vehicles come to, just like they're doing in Tokyo with the electric taxis. For a fleet operator this would be an investment that pays off over time, so it's more likely to happen. If they ever go public swap stations certainly won't be as numerous as gas stations, that's for sure! At best you'd have them at the outskirts of cities on the major highways.
=Smidge=

Smidge, you are quoting the wrong person but I do agree with him on battery swapping in the US likely never taking off as it is too far behind the curve, at least in public applications.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I hope the battery swapping isn't too easy - I have see a number of catalytic thefts, car wheel thefts and if the battery can be dropped too easily, it would be an attractive target. Since there is not a resale market for EV batteries, it's not likely today but in the future and if things go well with EV acceptance this could be a problem. Instead of stealing the car, it's most expensive part would be an attractive substitute.

!) car thieves wil need to be able to drop a 600 lb pack quickly from below a parked car in a public space and carry it away, lifting the car in the process.
2) They will need to drive or tow a car with limited range to a chop shop and store large packs that they will sell to others that will carry them away.

Not exactly easy to do.

 

[Volusiano]

I just don't see battery swapping being applicable at all unless its a fleet type setting. Firstly, you have no idea of the health of your new battery. I am sure the battery swamp person has a range to work in (say like at least 80% capacity remaining), but what if you need one thats new? or better taken care of? There is no guarentee anywhere.

I don't see why this would be a problem because a battery can easily have a diagnostic run after each swap to determine its condition. If it fails to meet the minimum capacity standard, it can be taken out of service for repair or replacement. If there are different batteries with different range capacities, for example a 100 mile one and a 200 mile one, you can simply select the one you want for your need. Of course there'll be a premium pricing on the higher capacity over the lower capacity, otherwise everybody would select the higher capacity one.

Secondly, its more of an issue with supply. Lets say most people drive EV's, do you think there is enough to stock thousands (probably 10's of thousands) swamp places accross the US with extra batteries (you need at least a few per place incase you have a run demand and can't charge the other ones fast enough) for every vehicle type. Just now you would need a tesla, mitsubishi, nissan, and GM battery. Plus the many more to come. These car companies are barely able to have enough batteries to produce a 10k cars a year (and usually less), do you think they would double that production (even if they could!) just to have those batteries sit around in some swap place waiting for a car to drive by?

The supply is just too small to have that many extras.

You have to remember that the discussion of this thread is not about right now, today. The discussion of this thread is about the future in at least 5 year time or 10 year time. So you won't see swapping stations until the use of EVs are ubiquitous everywhere. By then battery supply shouldn't be an issue anymore. I read somewhere that a study shows that at the current rate of how everyone is gearing up to manufacture batteries for EVs, in 5 year time there will be an oversupply of batteries available compared to EVs made.

Let's say if there are 10 quick chargers at a swapping station that takes 30 minutes to recharge a depleted battery, that means there are 10 fresh batteries that can be produced every 30 minutes. If it takes 3 minutes to swap a battery, then a station can swap up to only 10 batteries every 30 minutes. So a station only needs an inventory of 10 batteries on-hand to be able to continuously provide swapping for 1 car every 3 minutes 24/7. Ten battery to stock up one swapping station enough to operate it 24/7 continuously for up to 480 cars a day is a very sustainable model in my opinion.

Let's say it already costs me under $2 to charge up my fully depleted battery at home overnight. If I were to do a swap, I'd be willing pay 3 times as much, or $6 per swap for the convenience while on the go. Let's say their electricity cost is $3 (a little more than mine because some of their charge time is during peak hours), that means they net at least $3 per $6 swap after their electricity cost is deducted. 480 swaps per day will bring in $1440 daily profit, or roughly $43K/month, or $512K/year. Let's say rent and operating cost takes half of that, they still bring in >$250K/year. Not too shabby for a fully automated swapping station that operates on a 10-battery rotation basis.

Also, there wouldn't be a different type of battery needed for each manufacturer in the long run. Maybe in the beginning. But eventually when battery becomes a commodity, a standard will be in place such that all batteries will become interchangeable in all EVs. Not any different than the AAs and AAAs and Cs and Ds and 9V standards that we have. Another very good analogy is that you'd just take your standard LP tank to Home Depot and you exchange your empty tank for a new tank.

 

[JPWhite]

I hope the battery swapping isn't too easy - I have see a number of catalytic thefts, car wheel thefts and if the battery can be dropped too easily, it would be an attractive target. Since there is not a resale market for EV batteries, it's not likely today but in the future and if things go well with EV acceptance this could be a problem. Instead of stealing the car, it's most expensive part would be an attractive substitute.

The battery pack weighs about 660 Pounds. Not something that's easy to drop and steal, unless you take the whole car to a chop shop type operation.