How easy would be a battery upgrade in the future?

[surfingslovak]

Unless one assumes that the "batt upgrade" implied is simply just the higher cap battery pack and no other upgrades is demanded by the owner. i.e no 6.6kW charger and VCM. Is this even a viable option...

I would certainly hope so, but this will likely require some advance planning on Nissan's part and genuine interest to accommodate existing EV owners. The VCM is just a guess, but Mark Perry mentioned at the meeting at Google couple of weeks ago that the new 6.6kW charger will require a new VCM in addition to different wiring harnesses. It would appear logical that if a charger upgrade required a new VCM, so will a battery pack upgrade.

I wish that Nissan handled equipment upgrades via a simple firmware update, but there is a good chance that they won't do that, and will require a new VCM instead. The problem with that of course is, that they might not want to produce a highly specialized, low-volume part for the few thousand owners wishing to upgrade their battery. The standard VCM used in MY2014 or MY2015 vehicles on the other hand, might not understand the old 3.3kW charger and potentially other components, such as the old dashboard instruments (although there aren't that many other things to worry about beyond that).

My best guess is that independent shops will attempt to perform these upgrades instead of Nissan, just like fotajoye said earlier. I wish it wasn't so, but upgrades and low-volume tweaks of standard components might be simply under the radar of large-volume car manufacturers. I think that the Leaf community is very fortunate to have Phil, and and hopefully his track record will attract others.

 

[Herm]

Nissan is using lithium-ion cells of a standard voltage charge-discharge profile.. in a few year it will be possible to rebuild packs if cells of identical form factor are available.. and they will be since Nissan plans to make a lot of these packs. 500k packs a year is a lot of market of 3rd party replacements in a few years.

I can see lots of chinese manufacturers making identical form factor replacement cells for next to nothing in a couple of decades.. probably at double or triple the capacity using proven chemistries and paid-for equipment. Custom form factors in the lithium-ion industry are common, its not hard to do.

 

[cwerdna]

OTOH, if EV's go the way of solar panels, that is, very slow in being adopted, it can be an entirely different ball game.

I just can't let this misinformed quote pass. The solar energy business is booming, the news about some company failures is just the normal shakeout in a new industry. The days of fossil fuel are numbered.

Hmmm, as someone who invests and watches the stock market (but stays away from solar, too risky), do you have any good refutations against articles like http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/12/16/how-long-until-the-solar-industry-revives/?utm_source=pulsenews&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+fortunebrainstormtech+%28Fortune+Brainstorm+Tech%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

What are some publicly traded current solar companies that are booming and at what rate?

 

[fotajoye]

On the question of drive lines; the Nismo R Leaf has a relocated drive and has been balanced for the track, i.e., the battery has been relocated to optimize the weight on the wheels. As you know, the current street Leaf is front drive and the diff is directly driven by the motor, there is no tranny. Why? one might ask; Well, it turns out this is about as inexpensive and simple as drive lines get. But, it's at the expensive of performance and flexibility. EE's know that motors have a sweet spot where they operate at the most efficient rpms and that after that point, back emf and eddy currents work to spoil the efficiency. There are a few ways to improve on the current design: two motors driving the rear wheels, each wheel with its own motor comes to mind. This will remove the weight and the friction of the geared diff. Another driveline configuration would be a single motor with a constant speed transmission to keep the motor near the sweet area of operation. I have no curves on the current motor; but I feel safe to say that adding a simple two speed diff would result in a performance and efficiency increase. This might be a mod to consider right now.

Sorry, this is so long, but you asked the question.

 

[EVDRIVER]

On the question of drive lines; the Nismo R Leaf has a relocated drive and has been balanced for the track, i.e., the battery has been relocated to optimize the weight on the wheels. As you know, the current street Leaf is front drive and the diff is directly driven by the motor, there is no tranny. Why? one might ask; Well, it turns out this is about as inexpensive and simple as drive lines get. But, it's at the expensive of performance and flexibility. EE's know that motors have a sweet spot where they operate at the most efficient rpms and that after that point, back emf and eddy currents work to spoil the efficiency. There are a few ways to improve on the current design: two motors driving the rear wheels, each wheel with its own motor comes to mind. This will remove the weight and the friction of the geared diff. Another driveline configuration would be a single motor with a constant speed transmission to keep the motor near the sweet area of operation. I have no curves on the current motor; but I feel safe to say that adding a simple two speed diff would result in a performance and efficiency increase. This might be a mod to consider right now.

Sorry, this is so long, but you asked the question.

Don't expect and drive mods for the LEAF (new parts) it would be a waste of money to develop as one could buy a better performance EV for less. The LEAF is a family transport car and there is no market for expensive large component mods. FWD was not used primarily because it is cheap, it is used for efficiency, weight and reasonable regen. FWD is a good design for an EV like this. A competent person could get more power out of the inverter and the motor can receive more power however that is all limited to an air-cooled pack designed to operate within a certain power range. The idea of replacing a LEAF motor to inverter is not worth doing as the cost would be extremely prohibitive. Suspension and aero kits are easy to do but a bit wasted on such low power. So far all the Nisimo LEAF stuff is a bit of a laugh on performance. Sure, you can safely get a little more out of the stock drive system but it won't be 100 + kw output.

 

[edatoakrun]

On the question of drive lines; the Nismo R Leaf has a relocated drive and has been balanced for the track, i.e., the battery has been relocated to optimize the weight on the wheels. As you know, the current street Leaf is front drive and the diff is directly driven by the motor, there is no tranny. Why? one might ask; Well, it turns out this is about as inexpensive and simple as drive lines get. But, it's at the expensive of performance and flexibility. EE's know that motors have a sweet spot where they operate at the most efficient rpms and that after that point, back emf and eddy currents work to spoil the efficiency. There are a few ways to improve on the current design: two motors driving the rear wheels, each wheel with its own motor comes to mind. This will remove the weight and the friction of the geared diff. Another driveline configuration would be a single motor with a constant speed transmission to keep the motor near the sweet area of operation. I have no curves on the current motor; but I feel safe to say that adding a simple two speed diff would result in a performance and efficiency increase. This might be a mod to consider right now.

Sorry, this is so long, but you asked the question.

I'll see your 2 and raise you 4...motors.

I expect all but the very lowest-priced BEVs to have individual drive motors at each wheel, in the not so distant future.

Power distributed and controlled by wire, to every wheel, rather than by and gears and drive shafts from a remote location, allows significant performance advantages.

Electric motors are not nearly so large, complicated or expensive as ICEs, which effectively mandated only 1 per car, as the prime ICEV design imperative.

Motor-in (each) wheel is very possible, but more a marketing question, as to whether buyers prefer the increase in interior volume, as opposed to impairment to ride/handling from the increase in unsprung weight, that this would entail.

As to having a transmission(s) with more than 1 speed (or constant motor speed) to increase electric motor efficiency, I’d say maybe.

Tesla originally planned to put a 2-speed in the roadster, but found it cheaper and easier to get almost the same efficiency and high performance, by other means.

http://www.green.autoblog.com/2008/01/23/breaking-tesla-has-a-solution-for-their-transmission-woes-get/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So far, most all BEV manufactures have done the same. There’s a thread somewhere where this was discussed, and the upshot (IIRC) was that current motor designs have wide enough efficiency bands, so that they only really benefit from a two (or more) speeds, if you do a very large proportion of your driving at very low and/or very high speeds.

 

[EVDRIVER]

On the question of drive lines; the Nismo R Leaf has a relocated drive and has been balanced for the track, i.e., the battery has been relocated to optimize the weight on the wheels. As you know, the current street Leaf is front drive and the diff is directly driven by the motor, there is no tranny. Why? one might ask; Well, it turns out this is about as inexpensive and simple as drive lines get. But, it's at the expensive of performance and flexibility. EE's know that motors have a sweet spot where they operate at the most efficient rpms and that after that point, back emf and eddy currents work to spoil the efficiency. There are a few ways to improve on the current design: two motors driving the rear wheels, each wheel with its own motor comes to mind. This will remove the weight and the friction of the geared diff. Another driveline configuration would be a single motor with a constant speed transmission to keep the motor near the sweet area of operation. I have no curves on the current motor; but I feel safe to say that adding a simple two speed diff would result in a performance and efficiency increase. This might be a mod to consider right now.

Sorry, this is so long, but you asked the question.

I'll see your 2 and raise you 4...motors.

I expect all but the very lowest-priced BEVs to have individual drive motors at each wheel, in the not so distant future.

Power distributed and controlled by wire, to every wheel, rather than by and gears and drive shafts from a remote location, allows significant performance advantages.

Electric motors are not nearly so large, complicated or expensive as ICEs, which effectively mandated only 1 per car, as the prime ICEV design imperative.

Motor-in (each) wheel is very possible, but more a marketing question, as to whether buyers prefer the increase in interior volume, as opposed to impairment to ride/handling from the increase in unsprung weight, that this would entail.

As to having a transmission(s) with more than 1 speed (or constant motor speed) to increase electric motor efficiency, I’d say maybe.

Tesla originally planned to put a 2-speed in the roadster, but found it cheaper and easier to get almost the same efficiency and high performance, by other means.

http://www.green.autoblog.com/2008/01/23/breaking-tesla-has-a-solution-for-their-transmission-woes-get/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So far, most all BEV manufactures have done the same. There’s a thread somewhere where this was discussed, and the upshot (IIRC) was that current motor designs have wide enough efficiency bands, so that they only really benefit from a two (or more) speeds, if you do a very large proportion of your driving at very low and/or very high speeds.

Don;t expect hub motors in production EVs soon. The cost is still high to produce them at low weight to reduce the unsprung weight and the economies of scale are still poor for even standard implementations.

 

[fotajoye]

@evdriver:
I certainly agree that the Leaf is not a good platform for track mods; mostly because it is expensive, it's fwd, the motor runs out of steam and frankly it handles like a typical street car on turns; my track car is a 240z with a turbo 280zx engine and weighs about 2100lbs with the roll cage. It runs 1:56s at Sears Point.

But, "Who knows what's in the hearts of men?". I didn't think the Honda CIVIC would make a good performance car; but, every time I'm on the track there's always a Honda there somewhere.

When the used Leafs go down in value, I expect the younger set of car guys to carry on with all kinds of mods.

BTW, you don't need to use hub motors; you have plenty of room in the back on a Leaf for inboard motors which will reduce the unsprung weight, and will act as a limited slip diff.

 

[Herm]

BTW, you don't need to use hub motors; you have plenty of room in the back on a Leaf for inboard motors which will reduce the unsprung weight, and will act as a limited slip diff.

with an independent suspension?.. I do expect EVs to have AWD as a common option soon. There is no reason for motors and inverters to remain expensive once mass production really takes off... plus you dont need a huge motor for each wheel either.

Aluminum Brake Rotors: this will be the greatest advance for both ICE and EV cars for the next decade.. if they can make it work at a reasonable price:

http://www.imp.mtu.edu/information/brake_rotor.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[cwerdna]

OTOH, if EV's go the way of solar panels, that is, very slow in being adopted, it can be an entirely different ball game.

I just can't let this misinformed quote pass. The solar energy business is booming, the news about some company failures is just the normal shakeout in a new industry. The days of fossil fuel are numbered.

Hmmm, as someone who invests and watches the stock market (but stays away from solar, too risky), do you have any good refutations against articles like http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/12/16/how-long-until-the-solar-industry-revives/?utm_source=pulsenews&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+fortunebrainstormtech+%28Fortune+Brainstorm+Tech%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

What are some publicly traded current solar companies that are booming and at what rate?

Well, any answer to the above?

FWIW, First Solar's stock was $31.91 on 12/16/11. Today, it's $22.96. It jumped 10% today which coincided w/them laying off 30% of the workforce (2000 employees) and them closing a plant in Germany. At the beginning of 2011, FSLR's stock was north of $150/share.

 

[cwerdna]

I just can't let this misinformed quote pass. The solar energy business is booming, the news about some company failures is just the normal shakeout in a new industry. The days of fossil fuel are numbered.

Hmmm, as someone who invests and watches the stock market (but stays away from solar, too risky), do you have any good refutations against articles like http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/12/16/how-long-until-the-solar-industry-revives/?utm_source=pulsenews&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+fortunebrainstormtech+%28Fortune+Brainstorm+Tech%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

What are some publicly traded current solar companies that are booming and at what rate?

Well, any answer to the above?

FWIW, First Solar's stock was $31.91 on 12/16/11. Today, it's $22.96. It jumped 10% today which coincided w/them laying off 30% of the workforce (2000 employees) and them closing a plant in Germany. At the beginning of 2011, FSLR's stock was north of $150/share.

Any update to the claim the solar industry is booming? At least FSLR is now at $26.69 while the market's at all time highs.

In the meantime, we've had Suntech go bankrupt and Bosch exiting the solar business.

 

[fotajoye]

Driveline mods.. elaborate

OK, How about a two gear tranny; as you know the Leaf motor maintains about 200 foot pounds of torque from about 300 rpm out to about 3000rpm where it reaches the knee, then the torque drops off so that at about 6000rpm you could slow the motor down easily with just a little effort. This drop is caused by the reverse EMF and eddy currents acting against the attraction magnetic forces and they are substantially strong.

If you could shift gears to stay below the 3000rpm knee, you could create a nice little performance car. And, that's just one mod. There are people as we speak who are working in labs on AC controllers that increase the motor control phases by microcomputers from three to 20 plus, which offer excellent control of the power out further in the rpm range, and; in addition increase the efficiency at the same time so it doesn't use as much power to get there. The result is also a smaller, lighter, motor.

This Leaf has far more potential that Nissan is willing to deliver, simply because Nissan must make their numbers to keep Wall Street happy and stay in business; you know of course that Ghosn already has his neck out a mile betting on EVs. Not only that but he has to make money off the venture, breaking even won't do it!

In my mind, The true breakthrough is to double the battery energy density so that you can drop 300lbs off the car by dropping half the batteries and perhaps even half the battery costs. At 3300 lbs the Leaf suffers markedly from slow steering; In fact it's a mess. if I am correct, I understand the 2013 has dropped about 175 lbs. if you add that reduction you could have a car that's about 2800 lbs; now you have a quick car with even more range because of the weight reduction. and with the weight reductions, comes even more weight saving by not having to run larger components, etc. But, alas, I dream. And while I'm at it...move the motor and gearing to the back axle...so many ways to improve this car.

But, I'm still on subject because I did talk about the batteries. (wink,wink nod,nod)

 

[kovalb]

Driveline mods.. elaborate

...At 3300 lbs the Leaf suffers markedly from slow steering; In fact it's a mess.

Please drive the 2013 LEAF. The suspension damping has been firmed-up. The steering is also, slightly higher effort, more feedback, better on-center feel. It is now a much funner drive. I can take a high speed ramp with at at 75mph with confidence. Even at 70mph in my 2011 it does not feel nearly as secure. I wonder why no one has noticed/commented yet?
I agree weight loss for a car is almost always desirable, however the materials to accomplish it would drive the cost way up. In case you haven't noticed the price was reduced. That was quite an achievement given all the improvements that were made.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Well, any answer to the above?

FWIW, First Solar's stock was $31.91 on 12/16/11. Today, it's $22.96. It jumped 10% today which coincided w/them laying off 30% of the workforce (2000 employees) and them closing a plant in Germany. At the beginning of 2011, FSLR's stock was north of $150/share.

i have stock in several green companies...mostly token amounts to show support.

my two solars are down 71 and 85%

my community wind stock is down 55%

my "other" is down about 30% (it was down over 70% late last year)

so, a lot of excitement over announcements fueled speculation but their simply is very few results to show for it and still think that there are other forces hampering the innovation (conspiracy rant!)

but i have seen some increased activity in the business. most companies are still trying to recover from the damage caused by cheap chinese panels that has realigned public perception on initial investment options

 

[fotajoye]

Please drive the 2013 LEAF. The suspension damping has been firmed-up. The steering is also, slightly higher effort, more feedback, better on-center feel. It is now a much funner drive. I can take a high speed ramp with at at 75mph with confidence. Even at 70mph in my 2011 it does not feel nearly as secure. I wonder why no one has noticed/commented yet?
I agree weight loss for a car is almost always desirable, however the materials to accomplish it would drive the cost way up. In case you haven't noticed the price was reduced. That was quite an achievement given all the improvements that were made.

No doubt some changes have been made to the 2013, i.e., moving the charger up front, etc. But, my reference is to the front drive in general. It is different driving FWD street cars at speed since you can't get away very often with coming off the throttle in a turn. Honda and BMW Mini have a different suspension so they are more forgiving; Nissan has traction control.

I bought my 2011 "SV" for $19,700 including the $5,000 rebate and Fed tax deductions on April Fools day, 2011; that's almost what you pay for the "S" today. Like the car as a short range commuter; but, can't wait until "The Better Battery" comes along.

 

[cwerdna]

I just can't let this misinformed quote pass. The solar energy business is booming, the news about some company failures is just the normal shakeout in a new industry. The days of fossil fuel are numbered.

What are some publicly traded current solar companies that are booming and at what rate?
Well, any answer to the above?

Any update to the claim the solar industry is booming? At least FSLR is now at $26.69 while the market's at all time highs.

In the meantime, we've had Suntech go bankrupt and Bosch exiting the solar business.

Any update on this?

Besides the above, now it looks like LDK is in trouble with this below:
LDK Delinquency Flags Chance of Another China Solar Bust:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-16/ldk-delinquency-flags-chance-of-another-solar-bust-china-credit.html?cmpid=yhoo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LDK Solar Ltd. (LDK)’s failure to fully pay notes this week has raised the prospect of China’s second solar-industry failure this year as the company needs to repay a loan 10 times larger by June.

The world’s second-biggest maker of wafers that convert sunlight into power couldn’t repay all of the $23.8 million of dollar-denominated convertible bonds that matured on April 15, according to a company statement yesterday. Before the delinquency, its 2014 yuan notes dropped below 50 yuan per 100 yuan face value, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The yield reached a six-month high of 125 percent last week, compared with the 79 percent for Bonn-based Solarworld AG. (SWV) ...

 

[Desertstraw]

OTOH, if EV's go the way of solar panels, that is, very slow in being adopted, it can be an entirely different ball game.

I just can't let this misinformed quote pass. The solar energy business is booming, the news about some company failures is just the normal shakeout in a new industry. The days of fossil fuel are numbered.

Hmmm, as someone who invests and watches the stock market (but stays away from solar, too risky), do you have any good refutations against articles like http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/12/16/how-long-until-the-solar-industry-revives/?utm_source=pulsenews&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+fortunebrainstormtech+%28Fortune+Brainstorm+Tech%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

What are some publicly traded current solar companies that are booming and at what rate?

Anybody who thinks that the stock market and the real world are the same thing is delusional. Look at the price of Apple today. Remember when it was worth more than Exxon/Mobile?

 

[theaveng]

People are trying to upgrade Honda Insights and Civics to replace their NiMHs with Li-Ion batteries, but it isn't successful. The charging cycle is different, the computer doesn't know how to handle lithium, and it throws all kinds of codes. (Which means it fails State emissions inspection.)

I imagine battery upgrades for the Leaf would be just as difficult. One guy gave-up and decided to replace the insight's gasoline engine with a 3-cylinder diesel engine. Gets 100 mpg.

 

[cwerdna]

I just can't let this misinformed quote pass. The solar energy business is booming, the news about some company failures is just the normal shakeout in a new industry. The days of fossil fuel are numbered.

Hmmm, as someone who invests and watches the stock market (but stays away from solar, too risky), do you have any good refutations against articles like http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/12/16/how-long-until-the-solar-industry-revives/?utm_source=pulsenews&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+fortunebrainstormtech+%28Fortune+Brainstorm+Tech%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

What are some publicly traded current solar companies that are booming and at what rate?

Anybody who thinks that the stock market and the real world are the same thing is delusional. Look at the price of Apple today. Remember when it was worth more than Exxon/Mobile?

Ok. Forgot the stock market. You still haven't provided any evidence that it is booming, let alone solid quantitative evidence. Solar companies laying off 30% of their workforce, closing plants, going bankrupt, being unable to pay their bonds and a price erosion doesn't sound like a positive "boom" to me. The lower prices are potentially good for consumer though...

I've started another thread at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=12403&p=283926#p283926" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to discuss since this has nothing to do w/battery upgrades now. We can carry on the discussion there.

I'd like to be proved wrong.

 

[Desertstraw]

Anybody who thinks that the stock market and the real world are the same thing is delusional. Look at the price of Apple today. Remember when it was worth more than Exxon/Mobile?

Ok. Forgot the stock market. You still haven't provided any evidence that it is booming, let alone solid quantitative evidence. Solar companies laying off 30% of their workforce, closing plants, going bankrupt, being unable to pay their bonds and a price erosion doesn't sound like a positive "boom" to me. The lower prices are potentially good for consumer though...

I've started another thread at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=12403&p=283926#p283926" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to discuss since this has nothing to do w/battery upgrades now. We can carry on the discussion there.

I'd like to be proved wrong.

US solar installations soared 76% in 2012
Mar 18, 2013

Solar panel installations in the U.S. grew 76% in 2012 as the cost of panels and the surrounding equipment continued to fall, according to an annual report by a solar trade group.

Whole article: http://phys.org/news/2013-03-solar-soared.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;