How easy would be a battery upgrade in the future?

[Randy]

Exactly. There's about 8 bolts holding that battery in. About 3 more than hold the wheel on the car. Normal automotive jacks lift the car. A jack specifically designed for the battery is available from Nissan, with alignment pins. Both would be easy to replicate, and not very expensive.

My two cents...Per page 160 in Service Manual EVB, there are 32 bolts that hold the pack in place, and quite a number of steps to remove and replace. I'm sure a removable pack could be designed with less bolts, and reduced steps to follow if they wanted to streamline the process. It is quite a job now....

By the way, there are Type 1 and Type 2 battery packs (regular and cold weather package), so there would be some differences to take into account if you were starting up a swap shop and thinking of stocking it with packs...

The idea of a battery swap just isn't appealing to me. I'm planning on taking good care of my pack, and I want to keep my pack long-term as it will be a known quantity...I'm not sure I see the economics of a swap system, but then again my charging patterns at home give me most of the range I need....An occasional DC Fast Charge will help me with an occasional longer trip...

Randy

 

[Volusiano]

The idea of a battery swap just isn't appealing to me. I'm planning on taking good care of my pack, and I want to keep my pack long-term as it will be a known quantity...I'm not sure I see the economics of a swap system, but then again my charging patterns at home give me most of the range I need....An occasional DC Fast Charge will help me with an occasional longer trip...

Randy

A swap system means that there's no "my pack" anymore. It's just going to be a rental-like pack that is not your personally owned pack anymore.

From that perspective, an advantage is that you don't have to worry about ownership and taking care of it anymore. The swap system will be responsible for taking care of the batteries and any bad one will be detected early and taken out of circulation and for sure there will be some kind of quality control in place.

Another advantage is that as new battery technologies get introduced, you're not stuck with an older technology battery and can benefit right away from the advantages the newer technology brings.

Another advantage is that since you don't pay for your own battery up front, when batteries can be manufactured more cheaply, this cost reduction can be passed on to you as well in terms of the per-mile-cost that you pay for each swap.

You gotta remember that the battery swapping system will be a total different paradigm shift than the current model of owning your own battery.

But this is different than the original question from the OP on whether an old/used up battery can be swapped with a new one. While the answer is yes to that question, it is still the old paradigm of discarding the old battery and buying a new replacement that you will still own for good. This is not the same as the swapping system paradigm.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Exactly. There's about 8 bolts holding that battery in. About 3 more than hold the wheel on the car. Normal automotive jacks lift the car. A jack specifically designed for the battery is available from Nissan, with alignment pins. Both would be easy to replicate, and not very expensive.

My two cents...Per page 160 in Service Manual EVB, there are 32 bolts that hold the pack in place, and quite a number of steps to remove and replace.

32 bolts? Here's a snip right out of the LEAF good book; just 6 bolts hold it in, not the 8 that I guessed (Bolts identified by A in the diagram). Yes, you have to remove the mostly clipped on lower panels (which I've already done once on my car).

I still think it could be done muy pronto !!! I would also prefer a quick charge.

 

[mxp]

Has anyone been keeping tabs on likely 3rd party companies developing longer range batteries for the Nissan Leaf?

I'd be very interested if Kolibri was considering building one for the Leaf.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Has anyone been keeping tabs on likely 3rd party companies developing longer range batteries for the Nissan Leaf?

I'd be very interested if Kolibri was considering building one for the Leaf.

Yes and there are exactly 0. There would need to be a much larger car base to start development and once there is battery costs will have changed. In addition, dropping the pack is not exactly as simple as illustrated as above.

 

[Desertstraw]

Nissan faces an interesting challenge in two and a half years. If Nissan is lucky, and the rest of us are not, battery technology will not have improved and Nissan can continue with no problems. But if battery technology improves significantly, either Nissan must find a way to adapt existing Leafs or take a massive financial loss with the return of leased Leafs. Presumably the executives of Nissan understood this from the beginning and do have a plan to upgrade current Leafs.

 

[JPWhite]

Presumably the executives of Nissan understood this from the beginning and do have a plan to upgrade current Leafs.

Your presumption maybe correct, but they may choose just to dump the LEAF's on the used car market at whatever they are worth and eat any losses. There is nothing compelling them to spend money to upgrade anything, unless they see it it as the lowest cost alternative. Their plan could be to just dump them. Crazier things have happened.

 

[aqn]

Nissan faces an interesting challenge in two and a half years. If Nissan is lucky, and the rest of us are not, battery technology will not have improved and Nissan can continue with no problems. But if battery technology improves significantly, either Nissan must find a way to adapt existing Leafs or take a massive financial loss with the return of leased Leafs. Presumably the executives of Nissan understood this from the beginning and do have a plan to upgrade current Leafs.

I think it's a no-brainer for Nissan to keep the LEAF in its current configuration, as well as offer a LEAF variant with newer/better battery/motor/etc. technologies.

To make ICE comparisons, disc brakes have almost completely displaced drum brakes as the automotive stopping technology of choice. All the same, drum brakes are still found on some very low end cars sold in the U.S. and probably quite common on more economical vehicles in Asia. When overhead cams became popular, manufacturers continued to produce underhead cam engines, and still do today. When turbocharger technology advanced, manufacturers continued to produce normally aspirated variants of the same engine. New and better technologies do not always mean the death of older technologies.

Nissan will have a big advantage in the LEAF in being first to market. It would have much of the research and manufacturing costs already invested. If the LEAF turns out to sell very well, they can continue to armortize those costs; it will become easier to lower the LEAF's price to respond to competition. They can put newer battery and motor technologies into a better variant of the LEAF, the same way many cars are available in plain-Jane and high-zoot and sporting editions, with different engines, suspension, accessories, etc.

OTOH, if EV's go the way of solar panels, that is, very slow in being adopted, it can be an entirely different ball game.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

The battery pack weighs about 660 Pounds. Not something that's easy to drop and steal, unless you take the whole car to a chop shop type operation.

Do the individual modules have ESN's? If so, is it possible carwings could rat out a LEAF running around with modules that were reported stolen?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I wouldn't count on any upgrades from Nissan. Just like iPhones and iPads and every other technology item, you bought what you bought, and when better stuff comes out you can either upgrade to the latest thing or be left behind with the other Trauglytes to dig for you zenite consignment.

 

[edatoakrun]

Nissan faces an interesting challenge in two and a half years. If Nissan is lucky, and the rest of us are not, battery technology will not have improved and Nissan can continue with no problems. But if battery technology improves significantly, either Nissan must find a way to adapt existing Leafs or take a massive financial loss with the return of leased Leafs. Presumably the executives of Nissan understood this from the beginning and do have a plan to upgrade current Leafs.

I think it's a no-brainer for Nissan to keep the LEAF in its current configuration, as well as offer a LEAF variant with newer/better battery/motor/etc. technologies.

To make ICE comparisons... New and better technologies do not always mean the death of older technologies.

The ICEV model/LEAF comparison that has occurred to me is the VW Bug.

In the 1930's, VW (well, Tatra, really- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_(company" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false) produced a vehicle design that was superceded by far better ones by 20 years later, but VW sales continued to increase for another generation, based on incremental improvements of an obsolete design.

I don't expect LEAF production to last anywhere near 40 years, but Five to ten years from now, when most new EVs will have greatly improved designs, it's quite possible that the obsolescent LEAF will consider to sell very well, with modest improvements to the basic design, and (hopefully, much more significant) battery technology improvements, shared with the newer BEVs.

And Nissan may even decide to sell us 2011-12 LEAF owners, the 2020 LEAF 30 kWh battery pack, at a four-figure price...

 

[linkim]

And Nissan may even decide to sell us 2011-12 LEAF owners, the 2020 LEAF 30 kWh battery pack, at a four-figure price...

Several auto companies, including Nissan, are exploring "second life" applications of EV batteries after they are at 80% of capacity or so. In fact Nissan has a joint venture with Sumitomo to work on several concepts for these spent batteries. Perhaps at that time, it would be an opportunity for Nissan to provide upgraded battery packs to the LEAF owners.

 

[surfingslovak]

I wouldn't count on any upgrades from Nissan. Just like iPhones and iPads and every other technology item, you bought what you bought, and when better stuff comes out you can either upgrade to the latest thing or be left behind with the other Trauglytes to dig for you zenite consignment.

I think this is the most prescient assessment of what will likely happen. Based on my reading of the shop manual, I believe that a battery upgrade will in turn necessitate a VCM swap. Unless Nissan makes the appropriate provisions, the new VCM will be configured to talk to the new 6.6kW charger exclusively. And we all know what that means: prohibitively priced charger and wiring harness upgrade.

 

[edatoakrun]

And Nissan may even decide to sell us 2011-12 LEAF owners, the 2020 LEAF 30 kWh battery pack, at a four-figure price...

Several auto companies, including Nissan, are exploring "second life" applications of EV batteries after they are at 80% of capacity or so. In fact Nissan has a joint venture with Sumitomo to work on several concepts for these spent batteries. Perhaps at that time, it would be an opportunity for Nissan to provide upgraded battery packs to the LEAF owners.

Good point.

I should have said "Nissan may even decide to let us 2011-12 LEAF owners, trade-in our battery packs, for the 2020 LEAF 30 kWh pack, at a mid-four-figure price."

 

[Desertstraw]

OTOH, if EV's go the way of solar panels, that is, very slow in being adopted, it can be an entirely different ball game.

I just can't let this misinformed quote pass. The solar energy business is booming, the news about some company failures is just the normal shakeout in a new industry. The days of fossil fuel are numbered. "All of this goes to reinforce a recent study by Joshua Pearce at Queen’s University in Toronto, who found that cost estimates for solar technology used by energy analysts are greatly inflated. The technology is changing so fast that many studies don’t reflect the newest realities. For instance, the cost of solar panels has dropped 70% since 2009, and their productivity only declines 0.1% to 0.2% per year, rather than the 1% per year that was the norm.

The bottom line? Commonly used studies have listed dollars-per-watt of electricity as high as $7.61. According to Dr. Pearce, the real cost in 2011 is under $1 per watt."

 

[mxp]

And Nissan may even decide to sell us 2011-12 LEAF owners, the 2020 LEAF 30 kWh battery pack, at a four-figure price...

Several auto companies, including Nissan, are exploring "second life" applications of EV batteries after they are at 80% of capacity or so. In fact Nissan has a joint venture with Sumitomo to work on several concepts for these spent batteries. Perhaps at that time, it would be an opportunity for Nissan to provide upgraded battery packs to the LEAF owners.

Good point.

I should have said "Nissan may even decide to let us 2011-12 LEAF owners, trade-in our battery packs, for the 2020 LEAF 30 kWh pack, at a mid-four-figure price."

Unless one assumes that the "batt upgrade" implied is simply just the higher cap battery pack and no other upgrades is demanded by the owner. i.e no 6.6kW charger and VCM. Is this even a viable option considering what surfingslovak said about other components that needed an upgrade to accommodate a larger cap batt? i.e. VCM swap.

I am perfectly happy with the 3.3kW charger and a larger battery. I have no issues leaving my car to charge overnight at home for 8-10 hrs on existing 3.3kW and L2 EVSE. At that, I just need to charge once every 2 -3 days.

 

[fotajoye]

Several things:

First forget all you know about PB Batteries, Li is a different chemistry altogether. Li batteries are worth money as storage devices after they are depleated from auto usage. They can be used as a home solar system storage battery, as storage at utility companies, etc. They have trade-in value.

Nissan builds its own batteries in-house and you can bet they have an on-going program for improvement. I expect the next generation of batteries to improve markedly over the current grouping. But, as an OEM, they will be driven by the monitory aspects of the market; selling upgraded batteries may not be offered, especially since improved batteries will help sell their new cars.

I see the Leaf as a cult car, much like the old 240Z, with a large aftermarket of mods and parts. Nismo has already come forward with an "R" series track car and an aero package for the car. Next will be suspension changes and driveline mods...matted paint, black wheels, etc. Aftermarket companies should be quite involved in offering updates to the car, including all of the above, perhaps even battery upgrades.

 

[JPWhite]

Nissan builds its own batteries in-house and you can bet they have an on-going program for improvement. I expect the next generation of batteries to improve markedly over the current grouping. But, as an OEM, they will be driven by the monitory aspects of the market; selling upgraded batteries may not be offered, especially since improved batteries will help sell their new cars.

If I were a Nissan dealer I'd be lobbying for battery upgrades where technically feasible. The service revenue the dealer will get with EV's vs ICE vehicles is likely to be lower, maybe much lower. How great would it be if they can offer a battery upgrade they can make a decent profit on and keep their service staff busy? A battery upgrade is something EV owners maybe willing to pay good money for, whereas who would buy a gas engine upgrade because it had bigger exhaust valves and 30 more horsepower? With the correct marketing upgrades to 2011 LEAF's could spur demand for new vehicles in 5 years as well on the basis that the cars are upgradeable more than ICE vehicles and therefore a good long term vehicle purchase. On the other hand, many people change cars as often as underwear and may not value a car with a long term future.

It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

 

[linkim]

I am perfectly happy with the 3.3kW charger and a larger battery. I have no issues leaving my car to charge overnight at home for 8-10 hrs on existing 3.3kW and L2 EVSE. At that, I just need to charge once every 2 -3 days.

I agree with you, 3.3 kW is acceptable for me but a larger capacity battery would be worth my consideration. Hopefully, some L3 chargers will be available in Northern CA in the not-to-distant future so even a larger battery would not be required. In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy driving the LEAF.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Several things:

First forget all you know about PB Batteries, Li is a different chemistry altogether. Li batteries are worth money as storage devices after they are depleated from auto usage. They can be used as a home solar system storage battery, as storage at utility companies, etc. They have trade-in value.

Nissan builds its own batteries in-house and you can bet they have an on-going program for improvement. I expect the next generation of batteries to improve markedly over the current grouping. But, as an OEM, they will be driven by the monitory aspects of the market; selling upgraded batteries may not be offered, especially since improved batteries will help sell their new cars.

I see the Leaf as a cult car, much like the old 240Z, with a large aftermarket of mods and parts. Nismo has already come forward with an "R" series track car and an aero package for the car. Next will be suspension changes and driveline mods...matted paint, black wheels, etc. Aftermarket companies should be quite involved in offering updates to the car, including all of the above, perhaps even battery upgrades.

Driveline mods? Please elaborate.