Leaf Warranty

[Skywagon]

The question I have is if you lease the car and you see decreased performance for reasons they claim to be your fault then what will they do when you turn the car in at the end of lease? Most times you pay for any deviations from what condition the car is expected to be in; will they have a charge for early capacity loss on the batteries due to what they claim will be excessive conditions imposed by the lessee?

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

The question I have is if you lease the car and you see decreased performance for reasons they claim to be your fault then what will they do when you turn the car in at the end of lease? Most times you pay for any deviations from what condition the car is expected to be in; will they have a charge for early capacity loss on the batteries due to what they claim will be excessive conditions imposed by the lessee?

They can't, since they flatly declared that gradually decreased capacity is "normal". They can't call it Normal for the purpose of warranty repair, and abnormal/early/excessive for lease return.

 

[Skywagon]

The question I have is if you lease the car and you see decreased performance for reasons they claim to be your fault then what will they do when you turn the car in at the end of lease? Most times you pay for any deviations from what condition the car is expected to be in; will they have a charge for early capacity loss on the batteries due to what they claim will be excessive conditions imposed by the lessee?

They can't, since they flatly declared that gradually decreased capacity is "normal". They can't call it Normal for the purpose of warranty repair, and abnormal/early/excessive for lease return.

But in the warranty they do list conditions such as 120F for over 24 hours as voiding the warranty. I would imagine that would work it's way into the lease clause as well. If it does not then some people will be fortunate.

 

[Frank]

I decided to take a closer look at the Volt battery warranty to see if there are any specifics related to capacity loss and found this write up on the nissan-leaf.net website:

The battery warranty on the both the Volt and LEAF had been a mystery for a very long time, that is until Chevrolet took the initiative to go first and announce a 8 year/100,000 mile program of coverage. Nissan, wanting to stay on equal crowd with its closest competitor announced it would be matching that warranty a few days later.

But what is the warranty exactly? What does it entail? At what level of degradation would the pack start to be covered under warranty? Would the pack have to suffer a catastrophic failure to be replaced entirely?

Once again, GM has taken the lead in this regard.

Well, sorta. There was no fanfare, no announcements, no ‘read the warranty’ button to be found anywhere really. You have to find your way through the labyrinth to reach it from its Chevrolet Volt homepage (go ahead, give it a try).

GM states that first a dealer service technician will determine if the battery capacity is within the proper limit (given its age and mileage) to have any service/warranty work done. This process can apparently take up to 24 hours.

What is a acceptable loss of power? Anywhere from 10-30% loss of the original 16 kWh capacity. I assume some kind of sliding, pro-rating curve will apply as to which level between 10% and 30% is unacceptable.

If it is determined the car does need warranty servicing, GM (at their discretion) can either use new or ‘factory reconditioned’ components (like replacing individual cells) to repair the pack, or outright replacing the pack with a new (or used) battery.

Also present is the disclaimer about what level of capacity you should expect after work has been done. The car will be returned “…with an energy capacity (kWh storage) level at or above that of the original battery prior to failure.”

“Your Volt battery warranty replacement may not return your vehicle to a “as new” condition, but it will make your Volt fully operational appropriate to its age and mileage”

It appears that GM is at least providing some parameters to battery capacity loss under the warranty and appears to have a procedure to handle it if it happens.

 

[garygid]

It would be great to have some similar statement about the LEAF from Nissan.

 

[LEAFer]

Just starting to read thru the warranty and associated documents.

Finished reading the "Service & Maintenance Guide", and noticed a discrepancy.

On page 8 (lower right corner) coolant replacement is first recommended at 125k miles or 15 years (180 months). But on page 29 (105k miles or 84 months) it is already scheduled, and a note about the subsequent replacement interval is made (reiterating what's on page 8). Then on page 31 (120k miles/96 months) a note to refer to page 8 for "Cooling and Heating Coolant maintenance information" is made, but no replacement scheduled.

(More ... as I peruse each document.)

 

[kmp647]

note that there are 2 seperate coolant circuits:

1. motor/ inverter/ on board charger

2. cabin heater

 

[EVDRIVER]

note that there are 2 seperate coolant circuits:

1. motor/ inverter/ on board charger

2. cabin heater

The cabin heater does not have coolant, it is supposed to be resistive but I;m not sure if that is confirmed. The three components you listed above are should all be on the same system as they usually are.

 

[Long4Leaf]

Forgive me if this question has already been asked, but what is the "EV Battery Usage Report"? How is it generated? What information does it contain? Is this how they will determine if a decrease in battery capacity is covered by the warenty?

 

[xRB]

Forgive me if this question has already been asked, but what is the "EV Battery Usage Report"? How is it generated? What information does it contain? Is this how they will determine if a decrease in battery capacity is covered by the warenty?

The "EV Battery Usage Report" is a document generated at a Nissan dealer every 12 months as required to maintain the warranty. What it is to be used for, or how, remains unknown, so far as I know. In any event, a gradual decrease in battery capacity is specifically not covered by warranty. On the other hand, maybe the Usage Report will provide a baseline for a "sudden decrease in capacity", whatever that is, that would be covered. But without an event like a battery fire, I'm doubtful there will be any warranty coverage of the Li battery.

 

[kmp647]

note that there are 2 seperate coolant circuits:

1. motor/ inverter/ on board charger

2. cabin heater

The cabin heater does not have coolant, it is supposed to be resistive but I;m not sure if that is confirmed. The three components you listed above are should all be on the same system as they usually are.

this information cam from a Nissan dealer technician who attented technical training on the Leaf.
He specifically noted a heating system using a heater core, pump and resivoir with a resistive heater coil in the coolant tank

he also mentions a seperate system for the motor/inverter and charger

he seemed to know what he was talking about

 

[garygid]

I want some warranty for substantial "gradual" loss.

What information is the LEAF logging about battery usage (date and time, length, type of charge, estimated or "apparent" State of Charge, the four highest and lowest voltage cell-pairs, temperatures in the cells before and after charging, etc.)?

Will we have access to any of this data as we use the LEAF so we can better "baby" (care for) our LEAF's battery?

I would prefer to know earlier than at 12 months if my battery capacity is "gradually" declining quickly (bad usage?), "as expected" (fair), or very slowly (good care?).

If I only drive 50 to 75 miles when I do drive, I will have no way to know if the battery pack capacity is decreasing. The dashboard "display", presumably indicating capacity, only shows 12 levels, so the first indication that gives us is at 8% loss ... which is a bit late to help us care for the battery better.

What test(s) will the dealer perform?
Perhaps "equalise" the cells?
Perhaps carefully "drain" and then refill the battery?

 

[garygid]

Yes, some heat exchange fluid (coolant), reservoir with a resistance heater, a pump for that fluid, a heat-delivery "radiatior" (heater core), and a fan to circulate air through the heater core ... would all seem to be part of the cabin-air heater system.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Yes, some heat exchange fluid (coolant), reservoir with a resistance heater, a pump for that fluid, a heat-delivery "radiatior" (heater core), and a fan to circulate air through the heater core ... would all seem to be part of the cabin-air heater system.

Great, that type of system requires far more energy than resistive heating, has a lag time VS instant and even more so in cold climates, adds weight, adds complexity. Now fluid, pipes, a pump, heat exchanger, are all required. These type of systems are often used in conversions because it is easier to add the heat core and pump rather than pull a dash apart. I would prefer resistive since it does not need to heat a mass of liquid, comes on instantly and is very simplistic. I have used both systems and would not build an EV with a coolant based heater again.

 

[garygid]

Yes, the major disadvantage is weight, and then the component count and complexity.

The major advantages of this "complex" heater system are:

1. There is a thermal mass that can be pre-heated.

2. The high voltage is not "exposed", so is safer if the car floods or people try to service the heater area. This "safety" issue might have been a BIG concern for Nissan.

3. The resistive heating can be a simple, energy-efficient ON/OFF, with no need to "regulate" the current to the resistor (which would waste energy). Yes, faster ON/OFF switching could be used, but perhaps Nissan wanted to avoid that "rapidly" fluctuating load on the main battery. Maybe they use a mechanical relay to turn it ON and OFF?

4. The thermal mass gives a more uniform heating effect.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Yes, the major disadvantage is weight, and then the component count and complexity.

It is very inefficient, if you want to do a quick defrost or get a quick blast of air it takes lots considerable kw to heat the coil which heats water (cold or otherwise) and then it must be circulated by and electric pump and then it must all be heated to a temp high enough to warm all the cold parts in the system and the heat exchanger hot enough to then transmit the heat from a blowing fan. To make this process not take an unbearable time you must throw quite a bit of KW to speed it up. With resistive you get massive heat in about four seconds. It will defrost or warm you in an instant rather than minutes. If you just need to defrost with the radiant system it's like warming an entire car up, a waste of time and energy.

The major advantages of this "complex" heater system are:

1. There is a thermal mass that can be pre-heated.

This is a marginal benefit for most and it still wastes energy. It helps cold climate people a little but also has drawbacks for them.

2. The high voltage is not "exposed", so is safer if the car floods or people try to service the heater area. This "safety" issue might have been a BIG concern for Nissan.

This is not a safety issue, it is switched by a relay and there are plenty of HV lines in EVs, if you are under water you are under water and all is exposed. You can't get to the unit easily and it won't shock people.

3. The resistive heating can be a simple, energy-efficient ON/OFF, with no need to "regulate" the current to the resistor (which would waste energy). Yes, faster ON/OFF switching could be used, but perhaps Nissan wanted to avoid that "rapidly" fluctuating load on the main battery. Maybe they use a mechanical relay to turn it ON and OFF?

Marginal again, and the heat elements are self regulating due to the resistance increase when heat goes up, it works well when done properly, which is not difficult at all.

4. The thermal mass gives a more uniform heating effect.

You won't notice this on a proper system.

 

[Yodrak]

True, but they can declare that decreased capacity was the result of 'owner abuse', refuse warranty repair during the lease period, and charge for it at the end of the lease if such charge is part of the lease agreement.

They can't, since they flatly declared that gradually decreased capacity is "normal". They can't call it Normal for the purpose of warranty repair, and abnormal/early/excessive for lease return.

The question I have is if you lease the car and you see decreased performance for reasons they claim to be your fault then what will they do when you turn the car in at the end of lease? Most times you pay for any deviations from what condition the car is expected to be in; will they have a charge for early capacity loss on the batteries due to what they claim will be excessive conditions imposed by the lessee?

 

[Long4Leaf]

Won't any "owner abuse" be reflected in the Battery Usage Report?

 

[garygid]

Since we do not know what the report will contain, ... who knows?

 

[kmp647]

I have to admit it would seem much simpler and faster heating to just have a coil that heats air directly

Wonder if we will ever find out why they chose coolant?

A good question for the chief engineer at Nissan on the Leaf

Anyone know his or her name?