Leaf Warranty

[sparky]

It appears to me that Nissan's stated warranty is the result of some internal conflict.
I suspect Nissan's original intent was to offer a 5yr 60k warranty similar to their EV components.
Perhaps then, those warranty terms would look more like what so many of the previous posters are asking for -- a capacity warranty.
But the Volt warranty was announced and marketing got involved and now there's corporate debating between the design/engineering side and the legal/service dept side and what comes out is mud.

It's strange, because the beauty of EVs is there's so little to fail that it seems Nissan could handle this all-important item more deftly. My experience with EVs is that the most likely battery issue is module failure. This is easy to detect and warranty IMO. Then, depending on the way it's driven, high temps, hard accel, excessive discharging etc the overall capacity will fall slowly or quickly. (EV-folks correct me if I'm over simplifying typical pack behavior).

So, if we're looking at situation where statistically, at 5 yrs 50% of the packs are below 80% capacity, I think Nissan could warranty that pro-rata. The old pack is still worth some bucks, maybe $3k. A new set of modules in 5 yrs might cost $7K, and NIssan could charge me $2K to get my pack back up to 100% capacity and eat the other $2K. Seems like a simple way to add enough confidence that sales will stay strong.

As it is, if the warranty stays like this, I will lease. I expect my pack to be in great shape after 3 yrs since my driving profile will be optimal for the pack (moderate temps, 35 mi/day). If the pack capacity is still strong, then I'll buy the car, if not, then the lease is my warranty.

 

[LEAFer]

That's one procedure, not two alternatives. It's the old dit-dit-dit-dah.

So that would make it a "V" ! I guess ... --- ... would have been too much to ask of the driver :lol:

So ... if you can remember Beethoven ... you're in good shape.

 

[Frank]

I have a general question about vehicle manufacturer's warranties. We now know what the battery warranty is now for the 2011 Leaf 1.0. If we purchase a Leaf 1.0, and later Nissan decides to change the battery warranty for Leaf 2.0 (e.g. it defines gradual capacity loss) sometime during 2011 or 2012, would the terms of the new warranty be applicable to the Leaf 1.0? Or, do the terms of the existing warranty at the time of purchase "freeze"?

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

I have a general question about vehicle manufacturer's warranties. We now know what the battery warranty is now for the 2011 Leaf 1.0. If we purchase a Leaf 1.0, and later Nissan decides to change the battery warranty for Leaf 2.0 (e.g. it defines gradual capacity loss) sometime during 2011 or 2012, would the terms of the new warranty be applicable to the Leaf 1.0? Or, do the terms of the existing warranty at the time of purchase "freeze"?

Unless Nissan goes out of their way to improve/extend the previous warranty, you get what's in writing.

(For example, Infiniti once added a supplemental front-brake warranty to the G35, when it seemed like they were wearing prematurely.)

While I'm pleasantly amused by the good-will people are extending to Nissan by reading all kinds of things into the Battery Warranty that aren't in print, that's just naive. If it's not in black and white, on Nissan letterhead, it's not worth jack.

For battery capacity to be reduced in a "not gradual" way, it would have to be demonstrably sudden. It would have to show up, all at once, between battery "check up" visits. That's what a manufacturing defect looks like. And it's the ONLY thing covered by the warranty, with all kinds of exclusions for how they could pin this back on you.

Look -- if Nissan wanted to say 70%, or "over three years", or some other quantified guarantee of performance, they know how to write that. They intentionally chose not to make a capacity guarantee, and Mark Perry has said as much, several times over. The dashboard has a prominent indicator for capacity loss! What does that tell you?

If you're going to buy the car assuming the warranty says one thing, but really covers a lot more, you could be in for an expensive lesson in warranty language.

If gradual capacity/range loss is a widespread (perceived) issue, then the resale value of any Leaf will be absolute spit after three years, and all the lease cars will come right back to the lot. New platform, new electronics, new software, new charging infrastructure and lifestyle, brand new battery chemistry, pack design, thermal safeguards, and mealy-mouth warranty terms? Not a good way to show confidence, Nissan.

sparky put it best: "The lease is my warranty".

 

[garygid]

Does the LEAF protect the battery from damage by charging at a defective or run-away DC-QC station?

Sure, some may say that no QC stations will EVER become defective, but ... what if?

Failure of the LEAF to protect the battery from damage would not be covered by the warranty, it appears.

 

[Gonewild]

I thought I saw that the electric motor was the same warranty as the battery?

 

[LEAFfan]

Let's ask this another way..
Imagine you are Joe Careful, always keeping your state of charge between 20 and 80%, hypermiling away in Eco mode blocking traffic, parking in the shade, never using DC quick charge, and generally worrying a little bit each day about your battery...

Now, after two years, your battery is down to 80% range. After three years, 70% range.
It's not "defective", and the loss is certainly gradual.

What recourse do you have? None. You can either live with reduced range each year, or finance your own battery pack replacement. Good luck selling the car, of course.

The best way Nissan can show confidence in their new magical deep-discharge no-thermal-management battery pack is to WARRANTY the damn thing to where nobody has to worry. They haven't done that, and it makes me worry all the more.

Stop worrying...70% battery capacity after three years is NOT "gradual loss", and would definitely be covered under the warranty.

 

[DaveEV]

I thought I saw that the electric motor was the same warranty as the battery?

I'm pretty sure it's covered by the powertrain warranty...

 

[LEAFfan]

Exactly! However, Nissan has already defined gradual by saying what is expected from their battery packs: 80% by the fifth year and 70% after 8, so anything less isn't gradual.

Expectation is not definition. Yes, they expect that you will get that kind of use out of your battery, just as they expect you will be able to travel 100 miles on a full charge when the car is new. Both statements are probably true on average. But they don't warrant either of those things.

Again, the key word is 'gradual'. Anything more than what is expected is not gradual capacity loss so it will be covered unless it is abused. For instance, if the battery pack is at 70% capacity after one year, I guarantee you it will be covered with their warranty because that loss isn't a gradual loss, but an 'excessive' loss.

 

[palmermd]

Again, the key word is 'gradual'. Anything more than what is expected is not gradual capacity loss so it will be covered unless it is abused. For instance, if the battery pack is at 70% capacity after one year, I guarantee you it will be covered with their warranty because that loss isn't a gradual loss, but an 'excessive' loss.

I suspect you are right, but it is not guaranteed.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Stop worrying...70% battery capacity after three years is NOT "gradual loss", and would definitely be covered under the warranty.

Where do you see that, in print? Where is "gradual" defined? Nowhere.

We can ask Webster:
Advancing or progressing by regular or continuous degrees: gradual erosion; a gradual slope.

The only real meaning of "gradual" is that it happened continuously, and not all at once.. A straight line degradation, and not a sudden cliff. If your capacity decreases 10% a year, every year, that is the very definition of "gradual".

There's absolutely nothing in the warranty about 70% or any other capacity expectation. Only the shape of the curve. You're just making stuff up that isn't in print, which you won't be able to impress upon Nissan if you try to make a warranty claim.

As a rule, Optimists don't get very far in court, or a service bay. Have you never been on the receiving end of a denied warranty or insurance claim? You will see every letter of the text highlighted and underlined. You won't see your own expectations taken into consideration, at all.

The only thing you can honestly say about this warranty is that it is definitely at their option, whim and leisure whether they replace a gradually degenerate battery. It says so right there, under Exclusions.

 

[LEAFfan]

Stop worrying...70% battery capacity after three years is NOT "gradual loss", and would definitely be covered under the warranty.

Where do you see that, in print? Where is "gradual" defined? Nowhere.

We can ask Webster:
Advancing or progressing by regular or continuous degrees: gradual erosion; a gradual slope.

The only real meaning of "gradual" is that it happened continuously, and not all at once.. A straight line degradation, and not a sudden cliff. If your capacity decreases 10% a year, every year, that is the very definition of "gradual".

There's absolutely nothing in the warranty about 70% or any other capacity expectation. Only the shape of the curve. You're just making stuff up that isn't in print, which you won't be able to impress upon Nissan if you try to make a warranty claim.

As a rule, Optimists don't get very far in court, or a service bay. Have you never been on the receiving end of a denied warranty or insurance claim? You will see every letter of the text highlighted and underlined. You won't see your own expectations taken into consideration, at all.

I'm glad you brought up the courts. You may want to talk to an attorney and see how the courts would interpret gradual loss of capacity. I'll bet you that you would win hands down at 70% loss after two years or something similar.

 

[smkettner]

Stop worrying...70% battery capacity after three years is NOT "gradual loss", and would definitely be covered under the warranty.

Where do you see that, in print? Where is "gradual" defined? Nowhere..

Exactly, this is why there are required annual battery inspections.

If you lose 10% per year due to your habits or general conditions then that is gradual for your car and usage.

 

[smkettner]

I'll bet you that you would win hands down at 70% loss after two years or something similar.

If you lose 35% the first year and an additional 35% the second year and the drop is rather steady that will be dissapointing but may still be found to be gradual.

 

[evnow]

I think we all know what gradual means in theory. What we need from Nissan are actual numbers.

The 70% after 8 years and 50% after 5 years - are just some PR comments. Nothing official about those figures, unless I missed something this week.

 

[charlie1300]

The warranty covers manufacturing defects, and sudden and complete cell failures, or failure of the BMS. By default, any percentage loss of capacity over time is "gradual" capacity loss and it not covered. Loss of capacity to 50% over 3 years is still "gradual". Each of us needs to figure what as an acceptable loss over what time frame, based on how we will use the car. Then we can decide based on other factors (our understanding of the technology and our perception that Nissian will implement it in a optimal and robust way) whether the Leaf will meet our requirements.

The warranty is somewhat of a red herring - but it can focus our thoughts on the basic issues.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

If Nissan would come out and state the expected or normal capacity after three years of normal use, then we would at least have something to point to for the "manufacturing defect" clause. If it fails to perform to expectations, then you could make a case that your sample was not manufactured correctly. It would be an uphill battle, but still something.

The "gradual" clause insures nothing at all. Any rapid (nonlinear, non-gradual) decline in performance would likely be a Manufacturing Defect anyway.

I don't understand why forum members have more confidence in the battery pack than Nissan does. :?

 

[DarkStar]

I'm curious, do car manufacturers warranty the horsepower that a ICE vehicle provides? Most vehicles will "gradually" decrease in horsepower over time, as well as fuel economy. Short of purchasing a whole new engine, you'll never be able to get the same performance as when it was driven off of the dealership lot...

Why should the Leaf be any different? Sure it would give some people the "warm and fuzzies", but let's face it, with any new car model buyers are taking risks, but I believe in 5 years we won't be worried about it at all...

In my opinion, the battery is a consumable item. Just like any other battery. Hobbyists have been using all kinds of lithium-ion batteries for at least the last 10 years and results tend to be that capacity problems begin prematurely only when the cells are abused. You can read about the history of various lithium-ion batteries on the RCGroups.com website (Batteries & Chargers forum specifically).

 

[garygid]

LEAFfan,
Are you so certain of your "guarantee" that you are willing to write specific supplemental warranties for our LEAFs?

If so, please post YOUR warranty verbage here.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

I'm curious, do car manufacturers warranty the horsepower that a ICE vehicle provides? Most vehicles will "gradually" decrease in horsepower over time, as well as fuel economy.

Really? My 5 year old cars have just as much power as they had on Day 1. Maybe some 1980 Tercel has worn parts that should be replaced, but, it's certainly not normal for a new car to have a "gradual" decline in horsepower over the first 5-10 years.

In my opinion, the battery is a consumable item. Just like any other battery. Hobbyists have been using all kinds of lithium-ion batteries for at least the last 10 years and results tend to be that capacity problems begin prematurely only when the cells are abused. You can read about the history of various lithium-ion batteries on the RCGroups.com website (Batteries & Chargers forum specifically).

Interesting comparison. I've found that a good Hyperion LiPo has less decline over age than a Blue LiPo, for example. Flightmax great, Zippy okay, but the point is that there is variation in quality, usually correlated with cost. But --- none of my R/C batteries last longer than two or three years. They're usually unfit for service after two years -- too hot during peak current. I'm not abusing them, just using them. At $10 a pop (3S1P 2200mAh), I'm not crying.

The Leaf batteries must significantly outlast (by an order of magnitude) my R/C batteries to be viable as a car. I'm looking at the Prius as an example of acceptable battery lifespan (and warranty).