Los Angeles to kick the Leaf out of the HOV lanes

[Devin]

Ah, the myth that EVERYTHING is more "efficient" if it is private...

The idea isn't that a private toll road would be more efficient, it's that that people should pay for the services that they use and the costs they impose on others. For example, if you can drive on the freeway at any time but choose to do it at rush hour, then you're adding to the congestion. That's your right but you should pay for the time delay you've imposed on other drivers. This is the same concept that says that drivers of ICE vehicles should pay the costs of the health problems they create for those living near freeways or that tobacco companies should pay for the health costs their products impose on society.

A "congestion tax" is designed to have drivers pay for the congestion they create. Since AFAIK a Nissan Leaf imposes the identical amount of congestion as does a Nissan Sentra, the drivers of both cars should pay the same tax. In this case the "tax" comes in the form of a "toll" you pay to avoid the congestion and to decrease it for other drivers, but the principle is the same.

As an FYI, I-15 in San Diego has implemented this system and it works well. You can read about it here: http://fastrak.511sd.com/GettingStarted.aspx

Sounds like you're a supporter of London style congestion charging. As in, if you enter the Los Angeles metro area by ANY road you pay a fee. That fee costs $13/day at current rates. If you really advocate people paying for the congestion they cause, this is the solution. Note that I am not against congestion charging, I just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

I think our point here has nothing to do with the fact that we think we are entitled because we bought EVs. It's that we made a "deal" with the state to purchase a certain type of vehicle in order to help the state reach it's emissions goals as it is legally required to do. Part of that "deal" was that we receive HOV access stickers. Now a subsidiary of the state wants to revoke that part of the deal, yet we've fulfilled our end of the bargain.

If, for example, Level3 (a major internet backbone provider) decides to no longer let AT&T use their network to transmit data and you are an AT&T customer under a 2 year contract would you not expect AT&T to find a way (dealing with other vendors etc) to continue to provide you with internet service? Or would you think that because you were getting such a great rate on internet service you have no right to demand that they fulfill their end of the agreement and happily pay AT&T for the duration of your contract yet receive no service in exchange. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense from the customer standpoint.

 

[EricH]

Sounds like you're a supporter of London style congestion charging. As in, if you enter the Los Angeles metro area by ANY road you pay a fee. That fee costs $13/day at current rates. If you really advocate people paying for the congestion they cause, this is the solution. Note that I am not against congestion charging, I just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

I think our point here has nothing to do with the fact that we think we are entitled because we bought EVs. It's that we made a "deal" with the state to purchase a certain type of vehicle in order to help the state reach it's emissions goals as it is legally required to do. Part of that "deal" was that we receive HOV access stickers. Now a subsidiary of the state wants to revoke that part of the deal, yet we've fulfilled our end of the bargain.

I think the London model is spot-on here, although the congestion point is different (selected access roads, rather than the city-center). Also, the carpool lane on the 10 Freeway has always been unique, in that it has limited access points and requires 3 occupants (during peak hours) rather than the 2 occupants that are standard throughout the rest of SoCal HOV lanes.

I'm less susceptible to the arguments against congestion pricing -- I can't oppose market-price allocation of scarce resources without turning in my Economics degree -- than to Devin's argument about changing the 'deal' mid-stream. I'd be more convinced if there were data that show these HOV lanes (the 110 and 10, at issue in this thread) are, in fact, so congested that banning free access by the very few valid HOV stickers outstanding will have any impact at all -- we have, so far, only assertions by politicians that the situation is this dire.

It also concerns me that there is a good deal of existing toll-road infrastructure (91 freeway in OC, I-15 in Riverside/San Diego counties) that could be easily adapted to assess fees to white-HOV-stickered vehicles that currently are free. This is a bad precedent....

 

[malloryk]

Villaraigosa, the mayor of Los Angeles had a deputy back in 2008 that was driving a Hummer around - I found this article from the LA times still around: http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/11/local/me-lopez11

Adam Carolla has a great podcast (http://www.adamcarolla.com/ACPBlog/) where he consistently refers to the mayor as "Villa-retardo" (see this thread: http://mahalo.30.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=8174) - turns out the mayor was born "Tony Villar", but according to Carolla, took part of his wife's name so it would sound more Latino.

I have to say, with such deputies and such decisions on the HOV lanes in LA freeways, I'm beginning to agree with Adam Carolla, although "Villa-retardo" is an insult to all retarded folks out there.

sorry, OT! hee hee I love his podcast! The Mayor was recently visiting my company and we all had the opportunity to go meet him if we wanted to. I passed. Can't wait to see how the Aceman liked his test drive of the Leaf. It's supposed to air on his car show in a segment. He's said some nice things about electric cars in the past. I'm sure he'll end up adding one to his car collection.

 

[TomT]

One of my favorite satirical writers, Doug McIntyre of the Daily News, refers to him as "Mayor Failure." Truer words have never been said!

Adam Carolla has a great podcast (http://www.adamcarolla.com/ACPBlog/) where he consistently refers to the mayor as "Villa-retardo" (see this thread: http://mahalo.30.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=8174) - turns out the mayor was born "Tony Villar", but according to Carolla, took part of his wife's name so it would sound more Latino.

 

[evnow]

The idea isn't that a private toll road would be more efficient, it's that that people should pay for the services that they use and the costs they impose on others.

BS. All you are doing is preventing poorer people from driving i.e. preventing them from using a public resource. I don't see how that can be termed fair in any civililzed society.

 

[thankyouOB]

Hey, I will whine as loud as the next EV driver over getting shut out of the 10 and 110 HOV lanes.
(We have proved what big kvetches we can be here.)
But the issue of selling the HOV lanes to the rich, so there is one road for us and another one for them, is total BS.
There is nothing good that can come of it, except to tickle whatever revolutionary funny bones are lurking in the masses.

I can here them driving by me now: This is our due--just like tax cuts.

 

[hill]

Hey, I will whine as loud as the next EV driver over getting shut out of the 10 and 110 HOV lanes.
(We have proved what big kvetches we can be here.)
. . . . . . . . snip

maybe mashugana . . . but not a kvetch. And who told all of you about my wife's heritage??
No, often the dual purpose of toll roads in the bay area is to pay for the builders investment (plus profit) as well as encourage smog free driving. Yea, you CAN do one w/out the other ... but you have to wonder who has an ax to grind against smog free driving.

.

 

[blanga]

The CA Assembly passed AB2405 that would have overruled MTA's attempt to bypass State laws and again allow ZEVs in the 110 and 10, but in the State Senate, they added two lines that excepted out the 110 and 10 from the bill! Thus, AB2405 is now meaningless. I have given up hope since Nissan, Toyota, etc. seem to be unwilling to devote resources to lobby on this...(confounding...how many more Leafs would they sell if they could advertise savings of $20 per day in tolls). I can't even get a call or e-mail from Nissan or Toyota corporate to educate them on the status of the bills.

I did start a petition at change.org. Search for "110" and please sign it. Those in the know have told me enough signatures can get politicians to act.

Below is a link.

http://www.change.org/petitions/california-federal-and-state-representatives-and-lamta-continue-to-allow-zero-emission-vehicles-access-to-the-110-and-10-hov-lanes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[blanga]

The CA Assembly passed AB2405 that would have overruled MTA's attempt to bypass State laws and again allow ZEVs in the 110 and 10, but in the State Senate, they added two lines that excepted out the 110 and 10 from the bill! Thus, AB2405 is now meaningless. I have given up hope since Nissan, Toyota, etc. seem to be unwilling to devote resources to lobby on this...(confounding...how many more Leafs would they sell if they could advertise savings of $20 per day in tolls?). I can't even get a call or e-mail from Nissan or Toyota corporate to educate them on the status of the bills.

I did start a petition at change.org. Search for "110" and please sign it. Those in the know have told me enough signatures can get politicians to act.

Below is a link.

http://www.change.org/petitions/california-federal-and-state-representatives-and-lamta-continue-to-allow-zero-emission-vehicles-access-to-the-110-and-10-hov-lanes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[thankyouOB]

good idea.
these lexus lanes cheat the average driver, allowing special privileges to ICE drivers who can pay up, on an expense account or who can deduct it as a business expense.

watch out for the BS TPs of the metro express people, who say EVs dont deserve access because they dont pay road taxes through the gas tax.


i signed.

 

[Boomer23]

I signed. Thanks

 

[mwalsh]

deleted.

 

[mwalsh]

Deleted.

 

[Adrian]

Signed.

 

[thankyouOB]

ZEVs don't loose HOV access, or even free access. What you have to do is pony up $35 (IIRC) for a transponder. Once you've done that, access is once available again available at no charge. Or at least that was my understanding as of a few months ago....

This is absolutely 100% wrong.

I have been briefed on it as a city official by Metro Express folks, and they also partially explained it by saying:
EVs dont pay road taxes through gasoline so they are freeloaders.
and
One-passenger EVs dont reduce congestion and that is the goal.

End the Lexus Lanes.

 

[mwalsh]

ZEVs don't loose HOV access, or even free access. What you have to do is pony up $35 (IIRC) for a transponder. Once you've done that, access is once available again available at no charge. Or at least that was my understanding as of a few months ago....

This is absolutely 100% wrong.

Well things must have changed since April then. But I'm off now to check.

 

[mwalsh]

See my post in the other thread. I now understand that ZEV access is still available and free once a transponder is purchased ($35 IIRC).

take down these posts. this is absolutely incorrect.
i have a transponder and all the accompanying information. I have also been briefed on the policy by Metro Express officials.

ZEVs get NO PRIVILEGES in these lanes unless the legislature changes the authorizing law and forces Metro Express to allow ZEVs with stickers to pay NO TOLLS.

I will IF I find out that the information is incorrect. It wasn't as of two months ago. And knock it off with the condescending tone, you jerk.

 

[thankyouOB]

Carpoolers will be able to set them to reflect that the vehicle has multiple occupants so they will not be charged (except during peak hours on the 10, when cars must have at least three occupants to ride for free). Solo drivers of electric and natural gas vehicles, who get a free pass on carpool lanes elsewhere in the county, will have to pay the same toll as other lone motorists in the new HOT lanes.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-raoul-test,0,6110911.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

not sure what you heard in April, but this has ALWAYS been the plan.
order a transponder and read the material.
you can get one loaded with $40 worth of toll fees from AAA for $32, which is what my family has done.

 

[DaveEV]

[MOD NOTE] I merged the duplicate threads. Some posts are clearly nearly cut & paste from the 2 threads, PM me if you wish your duplicate post to be deleted or simply edit your own post as you see fit.

 

[BudRaymond]

I signed up with the AAA discount, entered vehicle info including type (electric), and saw no mention of free access Except for motorcycles.