Nissan Battery Pack Warranty Details

[Norway]

The Leaf is a computer on wheels, you can assume they log EVERYTHING they can measure in one or more of the cars ECUs, for retrieval later at a dealership, or perhaps it is even uploaded via the radio link.

That probably also means that you can hack into the information, and convince them that the car has only been driven by a "little old granny" on days when the ambient temperature was exactly 70 degrees! :lol:

 

[palmermd]

The Leaf is a computer on wheels, you can assume they log EVERYTHING they can measure in one or more of the cars ECUs, for retrieval later at a dealership, or perhaps it is even uploaded via the radio link.

I suspect when we purchase this car there will be a form to sign that says we agree to Nissan collecting data via the Carwings system. I suspect this data will be uploaded to Nissan daily, so hacking the data will not do much good unless you were to falsify all the data daily. Personally this does not bother me as it will allow Nissan to see how these batteries behave in the real world and allows them to pre-act to developing problems rather than waiting for failures to develop. I know some people will have a big problem with "big brother" watching over our cars, but it is the price to pay to be a early adopter. I'm sure I read somewhere that all the folks getting "free" chargers are required to sign a release for the charger manufacturer to gather data regarding the chargers use, and this is not much different.

 

[rnkepler]

Anybody read the vehicle disclaimer on the LEAF website? I'm guessing that's what Perry is talking about. Seems pretty clear that battery capacity is not covered. There's also a whole section on data collection.

F. Exclusions and Limitations to Nissan New Vehicle Limited Warranty
Your Nissan LEAF comes with a Nissan LEAF New Vehicle Limited Warranty. The warranty includes a number of specific conditions, exclusions and limitations. Unique to the Nissan LEAF is battery capacity, which is not covered. Lithium ion battery capacity loss over time is normal and expected.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Anybody read the vehicle disclaimer on the LEAF website? I'm guessing that's what Perry is talking about. Seems pretty clear that battery capacity is not covered. There's also a whole section on data collection.

F. Exclusions and Limitations to Nissan New Vehicle Limited Warranty
Your Nissan LEAF comes with a Nissan LEAF New Vehicle Limited Warranty. The warranty includes a number of specific conditions, exclusions and limitations. Unique to the Nissan LEAF is battery capacity, which is not covered. Lithium ion battery capacity loss over time is normal and expected.

It seems that way, they should cover at least 80% after 5 years or provide pro-rated coverage. Giving no coverage means you could loose 50% and have no coverage. Guaranteeing motor output is not a useful warranty only a way to have very loose warranty terms.

 

[smkettner]

Anybody read the vehicle disclaimer on the LEAF website? I'm guessing that's what Perry is talking about. Seems pretty clear that battery capacity is not covered. There's also a whole section on data collection.

F. Exclusions and Limitations to Nissan New Vehicle Limited Warranty
Your Nissan LEAF comes with a Nissan LEAF New Vehicle Limited Warranty. The warranty includes a number of specific conditions, exclusions and limitations. Unique to the Nissan LEAF is battery capacity, which is not covered. Lithium ion battery capacity loss over time is normal and expected.

I would trust that statement completely that steady loss of capacity will not be covered in any way.
I speculate the warranty will only cover an individual bad cell and likely replaced with a used cell to match capacity closely to the rest.

 

[garygid]

When I ordered on 13 Sept, I do not think that verbage was there,
and I read all of what was there.

If there is really NO warranty on the battery capacity, it is unlikley
that I will buy. I feel that a 90% reduction in the battery capacity
(only 10% left) after the first year is TOTALLY unacceptable.

 

[mitch672]

When I ordered on 13 Sept, I do not think that verbage was there,
and I read all of what was there.

If there is really NO warranty on the battery capacity, it is unlikley
that I will buy. I feel that a 90% reduction in the battery capacity
(only 10% left) after the first year is TOTALLY unacceptable.

I doubt it wil be that bad in reality, and you know that as well.

However, without any specific battery warranty as to SOC capacity after specific landmark events, such as pack age or mileage, I think many are going to back out and not take delivery. Let's hope Nissan realizes this and get's more specific on warranty terms. Even an ICE car has a 3/year 36K mileage on the drivetrain...

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Agreed.

There is no possible way I would buy an EV that had no meaningful warranty on battery capacity. Not just peak output current, but capacity.

I've seen such a huge variety in battery quality, and sample-to-sample variation, that without some kind of a performance guarantee, the battery would be untouchable. 80% capacity after two years would be a big FAIL in my book, and if there was no warranty coverage, I'd be stuck with it.

Replacing the battery early (as a consumable) out of warranty is not practical.

Even 12v lead-acid batteries come with a pro-rated warranty, indicative of quality or vendor confidence. I expect nothing less.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I think there must be some warranty, I have been a risk taker on EV packs and accept they could fail on conversions, but Nissan claims they have their pack tech down, well I will likely back out as well as several of my friends if there is no capacity warranty, without this it's endless negotiating with dealers over coverage and a user that does everything correctly could easily see a loss of 30% after a year or two, that is a risk I won't take. If I do I want a line in the sand for a capacity warranty so I know what my worst case warranty situation will be. Average consumers will demand this or be very angry if they find a big range drop surprise in a year or two.

 

[Ready2plugin]

Pardon my French, but this really sucks! My car is suppose to be here in December (early 8/31 reservation) and we still don't know what the warranty details are. Not only will I not buy the car, leasing is starting to be an issue because of the added cost. I'm also dealing with a utility company that will force me to add a second meter and box because of my PV system. I'm almost ready to give up and buy the Civic GX and wait for Gen 2.

 

[mitch672]

yes, perhaps mwalsh should be calling some of his Nissan Executive contacts. Nissan's arrogance over the 20K reservations could quickly turn around to bite them in the a_s if a large number of reservationists, who have ordered refuse delivery, because of the vagueness/non-specific battery pack warranty.

This could be taught in a college class called "How to take a succesful product launch and tank it"

 

[EVDRIVER]

yes, perhaps mwalsh should be calling some of his Nissan Executive contacts. Nissan's arrogance over the 20K reservations could quickly turn around to bite them in the a_s if a large number of reservationists, who have ordered refuse delivery, because of the vagueness/non-specific battery pack warranty.

This could be taught in a college class called "How to take a succesful product launch and tank it"

Very possible. The warranty could be a real deal breaker for many and make people "wait".

 

[walterbays]

Very possible. The warranty could be a real deal breaker for many and make people "wait".

Sure, many of the would-be Leaf buyers might switch to Volt or Ford Fusion or Prius PHEV or ICE. Many others might switch from purchase to lease to put the battery risk back on Nissan again.

 

[smkettner]

Pricing of the lease would show Nissan is not worried about cars getting turned in with less than 50% capacity in three years. Or it is a huge unrecorded liability that could cost them dearly. I am purchasing with no worries

 

[curtegg]

hmmm, unlike most of you, I'm planning on keeping the Leaf my usual 20 years for cars. I put the rest of my miles on a motorcycle. I'm not worried as much about the batteries. Just going to follow some simple rules:
1) Try to leave the batteries at 60-65% charge level prior to multi-day periods of no driving. The loss rate is small enough not to worry for 2 weeks (my longest case). These kinds of batteries do not like to be sitting at 100%, so recharge them only prior to extended use.
2) Recharge if possible when car approaches 30% SOC to mInimize charging frequency. In my case I should easily get by with less than 100 charge cycles a year.
3) Always optimize your route by planning ahead. Nissan is providing a way to do this with google maps. Why waste the energy from those ions
4) I figure in a few years I'll be going solar or wind and will have a backup use for the batteries when I do need to swap them.
5) I'm always going to be driving in ECO. I figure I will adjust to it (if I want speed, I'll go back to the bike

Given the temperate climate (LA - California) I should easily get 10 years out of the batteries. My only long trip will be when it rains (wimping out of riding the motorcycle in the wet stuff in my old age) and I have to make my 104 mile roundtrip commute on the 210 freeway (fortunately, I have spots to charge at work).

 

[mitch672]

curtegg, your use and charging only 100 cycles per year may get you your 10 years of life from the battery pack, but many here will be commuting 5 days a week with the Leaf, and may have 240 to 400 charge cycles per year (more than 1 a day if topping off at work), so many want to know EXACTLY what the battery pack warranty will be.

 

[derkraut]

My plan is to use the Leaf as my 2nd car, for local travel. Well.....in retrospect, I'm happy I don't have to make a decision to order until January. Maybe by then, this issue about the battery life will be a bit clearer. My 2006 Prius, now over 4yrs old, has 39M miles on the ODO. It also has a firm 8yr written warranty on the big battery. I have a lifetime avg of 49.5mpg, which includes all types of driving speeds/conditions. So far, I have had not one single problem with the Prius; it's the best automobile I have ever owned. (and I've owned dozens, in my 60yrs of driving).

Bottom line....I like the idea of an all-electric automobile; but I also realize I can purchase a brand new Prius for a lot less than the Leaf, even with the federal tax credit. So, we'll wait and see. :?

 

[DaveEV]

Bottom line....I like the idea of an all-electric automobile; but I also realize I can purchase a brand new Prius for a lot less than the Leaf, even with the federal tax credit. So, we'll wait and see. :?

Not if you're part of the EV project... Another $5k brings it well below the starting price of the Prius...

 

[EVDRIVER]

The more I think about the battery warranty the more I think this can kill the success of the Leaf and potentially other EVs. The average person does not have a clue about battery packs and even those that understand batteries don't necessarily understand EV packs and the impact capacity will have on the car, it's not just a reduction in range. If consumers are led to buy an EV based on a warranty they think sounds good on motor output, etc and and they are told it "should" have 80% capacity in X years, well in a few years when it doesn't there are going to be some very angry people.

I also know that once people start to drive EVs some of them will elicit the "EV Bug", this takes on many forms and even hits the non-EV types. Sometimes it makes you a pack miser or a number tracker or even a crazy convert with piles of cord adaptors in the trunk that scares away people in the Trader Joe's parking lot. There is one thing I know for certain, many EV drivers will start to become acutely aware of how there pack performs over time and some will have higher post-sale expectations and regardless of what they were told about capacity and they will expect a certain value after a certain time frame. Sure the 10 mile commuter may not care but I'll take a pizza bet on this one any day. I also know that many that were sure they needed a 3.3kw charger will change their minds because once you drive an EV it can change the way you drive in ways you would never expect. There is no tangible way to describe the EV bug but you will know it when you have it or at least your friends will before they threaten and intervention. If you have it now don't let it blind your common sense as it often can.

I am becoming more concerned at the way the pack warranty is being glossed over with a silly statement about motor output and how it is not clearly spelled out in more detail on the Nissan site. When people decide they are "getting" an EV you can tell them the most horrific things about the potential issues about their pack and range and they nod their head and say they understand. The merits of this pack are not being bragged about in terms of capacity but on all other counts, I'm not saying the Nissan pack won't hold up well for sure or that the capacity will drop substantially, but I am concerned that Nissan has not been more specific on this and at the apparently sneaky way they are intending to cover the pack warranty. For those that like the performance of the car while charged up, consider how a cordless drill performs at lower capacity. I only suggest that people pay closer attention to this since EVs are ALL about the pack. When Nissan recently extended their warranty based on consumer feedback it is also likely the time when they came up with the silly motor output quote. One would at least think they could put some number in writing, we don't even see a low one yet because if they can't promise say 80% in two years they certainly look bad promising 60%. As much as I would like to think they will do the right thing, I would like to know where that interpretation with the service manager begins and and ends. Your warranty is as good as the details, nothing more.

Personally, if the Leaf had a stated range of 125-150 miles I would not be as concerned as I would always expect I could do 80-100 efficiently as the pack ages. I also hope the pack is really closer to 30KW because if the pack really only has 10-20% actual capacity left on the way home up a hill it's going to be a slow climb!

 

[LEAFer]

Excellent summary. Thank you EVDRIVER. I hope Nissan is listening.