Nissan Battery Pack Warranty Details

[abasile]

Yes, the leasing will end up costing some additional money, in the end. Think of it as an insurance policy, and a way to put the battery pack risk back onto Nissan, since they seem more than willing to attempt to put it on the early adopters.

I have a gut feeling at the three year mark the battery most likely will seem fine. If there is a widespread problem I think it will be quick capacity loss after the three year mark. I fully expect the battery to be fine for ten years. Just saying the three year lease as insurance may not really cover the consumer well unless this EV thing is a total flop and the batteries are about shot in 24 to 36 months.

I tend to agree. $3K extra for "insurance" on the first three years is more than we are willing to pay. Having a "real" 8 year warranty would be good. Nissan needs to make its early adopters happy. We will be their best salespeople!

Another way of looking at it is that that $3K could be saved toward the cost of a new battery pack when the time comes. Assuming replacement battery prices drop, that would be pretty significant.

 

[Herm]

The original news report from AESC:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html

"Based on AESC’s testing, the cells will retain more than 80% capacity after 7 years, including 70,000 km (43,496 miles)."

So how about if Nissan gives a full "exchange-with-new" for any repair work before 36k miles, afterwards prorates the value to 8 years? (and that includes labor).. Similar to how lead-acid batteries are warrantied today.

The pro-rated scale would start at 100% payout at 36k miles sliding down to 0% at 8years/100k miles. A "warranty event" and visit to the dealer would be triggered by a light on your dashboard (similar to how Honda does their hybrids now) or hopefully a complaint by the owner of low range (with limitations). I am sure the BMS will keep track of the capacity of each module... either to calculate the pro-rate or facilitate replacement of that module.

 

[LEAFer]

The original news report from AESC:
"Based on AESC’s testing, the cells will retain more than 80% capacity after 7 years, including 70,000 km (43,496 miles)."

Only 6,215 miles per year ? Reasonably real-world for Europe and Japan, maybe; not USA. I will assume the cycling is the greater contributor to degradation (as opposed to calendar life); so that means driving at 12,000 miles per year (somewhat standard even for leases), the battery could be at 80% after 4 years (more than 43,496 miles by 10%, but shorter timeframe by more than 40%). Not too bad. Now ... warranty that !

 

[EVDRIVER]

The original news report from AESC:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html

"Based on AESC’s testing, the cells will retain more than 80% capacity after 7 years, including 70,000 km (43,496 miles)."

So how about if Nissan gives a full "exchange-with-new" for any repair work before 36k miles, afterwards prorates the value to 8 years? (and that includes labor).. Similar to how lead-acid batteries are warrantied today.

The pro-rated scale would start at 100% payout at 36k miles sliding down to 0% at 8years/100k miles. A "warranty event" and visit to the dealer would be triggered by a light on your dashboard (similar to how Honda does their hybrids now) or hopefully a complaint by the owner of low range (with limitations). I am sure the BMS will keep track of the capacity of each module... either to calculate the pro-rate or facilitate replacement of that module.

If that were from a third party I may believe it.

 

[Herm]

If that were from a third party I may believe it.

How would a third party validate the range of the battery?.. they would need access to the CANBUS codes and diagnostic equipment (dealer only stuff) ... or put the LEAF on a threadmill and let it run until the battery dies. I would trust what the display itself says, but I am known for being naive.

So what do you think of the 36k mile pro-rate idea?.. I think its fair to everyone involved.

 

[Herm]

The original news report from AESC:
"Based on AESC’s testing, the cells will retain more than 80% capacity after 7 years, including 70,000 km (43,496 miles)."

Only 6,215 miles per year ? Reasonably real-world for Europe and Japan, maybe; not USA. I will assume the cycling is the greater contributor to degradation (as opposed to calendar life); so that means driving at 12,000 miles per year (somewhat standard even for leases), the battery could be at 80% after 4 years (more than 43,496 miles by 10%, but shorter timeframe by more than 40%). Not too bad. Now ... warranty that !

Perhaps the low range is because they were doing a lot of really fast 15 minute charging, that will shorten the life more than a 30 minute fast charge.. Nissan is really interested in the fast charge idea:

AESC has its EV batteries under test in the Subaru R1e vehicles being tested in Japan by TEPCO; a quick charge (80% capacity of the 9.2 kWh pack in 15 minutes) is part of the vehicle specification.

 

[abasile]

The original news report from AESC: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html

"Based on AESC’s testing, the cells will retain more than 80% capacity after 7 years, including 70,000 km (43,496 miles)."

Are we sure those figures apply to the cells currently used in the LEAF? The article also mentions, "For the next-generation of EV cells, AESC is working on a new cathode material of a nickel-mixed Mn spinel and a graphite carbon anode. The cell will feature an enlarged footprint, but will be thinner to increase heat discharge, and have a capacity of 30 Ah."

I'm guessing (and hoping) that significant improvements have been made...

 

[Herm]

It is well known that a new generation of LEAF batteries with double the range is coming soon, some think by 2014. Either double the range or half the cost.

 

[JasonT]

It is well known that a new generation of LEAF batteries with double the range is coming soon, some think by 2014. Either double the range or half the cost.

Well known where? I have seen plenty of hope and speculation, but no knowledge.

 

[DaveEV]

Are we sure those figures apply to the cells currently used in the LEAF?

They don't - the EV cells in the GCG article were rated at 89 Wh/kg while the ones used in the Leaf will be at least 130-140 Wh/kg.

 

[LEAFfan]

I tend to agree. $3K extra for "insurance" on the first three years is more than we are willing to pay. Having a "real" 8 year warranty would be good. Nissan needs to make its early adopters happy. We will be their best salespeople!
Another way of looking at it is that that $3K could be saved toward the cost of a new battery pack when the time comes. Assuming replacement battery prices drop, that would be pretty significant.

Where do you get $3K extra? For me, it is actually LESS than buying, since I benefit greatly by taking the $7500 ftc with leasing.

 

[abasile]

I tend to agree. $3K extra for "insurance" on the first three years is more than we are willing to pay.

Where do you get $3K extra? For me, it is actually LESS than buying, since I benefit greatly by taking the $7500 ftc with leasing.

Agreed that everyone's situation is different. In my case, taking the full tax credit should not be an issue, and financing is not a factor. For me, the NPV rate would be low, at least in today's economy. (See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1640&start=0)

 

[Herm]

Are we sure those figures apply to the cells currently used in the LEAF?

They don't - the EV cells in the GCG article were rated at 89 Wh/kg while the ones used in the Leaf will be at least 130-140 Wh/kg.

Nissan has not released that 140Wh/kg spec either.. so its also speculation. The official Nissan info on the pack is only the voltage, number of modules and the 24kWh capacity. The AESC web site is where you saw that number.

 

[walterbays]

This article makes it look like it would be very difficult to harm your battery and void the warranty. http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20011094-48.html

The article is from July, but I couldn't find a reference to it on the forum.

 

[JPVLeaf]

It is well known that a new generation of LEAF batteries with double the range is coming soon, some think by 2014. Either double the range or half the cost.

Well known where? I have seen plenty of hope and speculation, but no knowledge.

Yes, please share some references. When, approximately, is "coming soon"?
And, who is "some" (that 'think by 2014'). I ask because if this is really the case,
then I may consider waiting until then. Not likely, but that would be
something to consider.

References, please.