Official Tesla Model S thread

[evnow]

i know what you are saying about the base model, but the Infiniti is all still 'what ifs' and future tense atm...and I think the argument can be made that the Infiniti at 130 miles over the LEAF's 100 miles for maybe for an extra $12,000 is as much up a struggle in logic if you are 'running the numbers', as getting an extra 30 miles in the Tesla over the Infiniti for another $7,000 to $10,000...plus the Tesla has the 'electric car' cache.

True - I'm sure S is a nice car compared to Ininiti EV.

But not having quick charge on the 160 miler makes it unviable. Why would I "downgrade" from Leaf with QC to a $50K car without one ? We are supposed to get some 30 QCs in WA in the next year.

For me Leaf's range is good - except in winter. So, Tesla's 160 (i.e. 115 EPA) should be plenty. But I'd take Infiniti's 130 + QC over S's 160. Ofcourse, S will probably end up costing more with options (3.7k for nav & fob & rearview ?).

Whether Tesla can pull all this off - ofcourse remains to be seen (unlike Infiniti). You must have seen the downgrade because the analyst thought Tesla doesn't have enough cash to implement.

 

[Jay]

i know what you are saying about the base model, but the Infiniti is all still 'what ifs' and future tense atm...and I think the argument can be made that the Infiniti at 130 miles over the LEAF's 100 miles for maybe for an extra $12,000 is as much up a struggle in logic if you are 'running the numbers', as getting an extra 30 miles in the Tesla over the Infiniti for another $7,000 to $10,000...plus the Tesla has the 'electric car' cache.

True - I'm sure S is a nice car compared to Ininiti EV.

But not having quick charge on the 160 miler makes it unviable. Why would I "downgrade" from Leaf with QC to a $50K car without one ? We are supposed to get some 30 QCs in WA in the next year.

For me Leaf's range is good - except in winter. So, Tesla's 160 (i.e. 115 EPA) should be plenty. But I'd take Infiniti's 130 + QC over S's 160. Ofcourse, S will probably end up costing more with options (3.7k for nav & fob & rearview ?).

Whether Tesla can pull all this off - ofcourse remains to be seen (unlike Infiniti). You must have seen the downgrade because the analyst thought Tesla doesn't have enough cash to implement.

Indeed. I agree that the lack of QC on the base (which goes the least far) is troubling if your looking out longer term on the infrastructure...the QC is the most needed here in this trim level. I'm not a fan of that decision by Tesla at all. The onboard 10kW is nice though, as is the twin charge.

I think for most people (and myself-once they prove they are delivering) that are willing to dip into the luxury car price range (over 50K), that the 60kWh/230miler is the real starting point. I really don't have much interest in the 40kWh/160miler if something better is available.

That extra 10K or 20K doesn't just buy me 70 or 140 more miles, it buys me not giving a 'horses-patoot' on what my driving style is, or how far I have to go. At 160 miles, or as you say 115ish EPA, it is still going to be on my mind.

I'd imagine, for the most part, only the people that are stretching themselves to get into the brand will go with the stripped/entry level...which might still be a third of the sales. It is obvious Tesla is struggling to hold the price, and is trying to gain back on the MSRP with the options/model upgrade. I do give them credit for at least announcing the price point is still available.

 

[DaveEV]

For me Leaf's range is good - except in winter. So, Tesla's 160 (i.e. 115 EPA) should be plenty.

Just realized something - For sure the 55 mph range numbers that Tesla is posting are actually their range numbers when charging in range mode. With the Roadster you get ~190 mi "ideal range" miles when charging normally instead of 240 mi - 80%.

So the Tesla's actual "ideal range" is 128 / 184 / 240 mi - and EPA numbers in regular mode: 90 / 150 / 192 mi. Still a lot better than the LEAF's 80%/100% 59 / 73 mi EPA ranges, but at least Nissan doesn't seem to worry about 100% charging unless you let it sit that way for a long time.

Anyway, if you get the 40 kWh Model S expecting to go a LOT farther than the LEAF, one may be surprised that it takes range mode charging to do so. At least Tesla is being up front about what it takes to get the range numbers they're claiming (driving 55 mph) - I wonder when they'll let the normal vs range mode charging mode information out.

 

[Caracalover]

I never said I was pinching pennies. :x I'd put my income up against yours any day. What I don't like is how they have waited until now to release the specifics of what features are included for the price. I feel that I have been deliberately mislead, or they have changed strategies at the 50 yard line, just to appease the shareholders.
So, you are admitting this is just a rich boy's toy? I think Tesla is sadly mistaken if that is their plan. I can't imagine too many people with that much expendable income settling for an electric car with limited range, very limited dealership support, and negligible charging infrastructure. maybe in Silicon Valley, but it won't play very well in Florida.

Not sure if you are aware of Tesla's plan, or what they are all about to start with. I have a far different view of them, perhaps a bit over the top, but I am an idealist.

Tesla began from the death of the EV1. It was made to show the other car companies that an EV is desired, and can be made now, not in some distant future. Those that invested in the company (I know one of them) early on risked more than the model S premium edition price to help get it off the ground, and Elon Musk put in another huge bankroll before the company went public. Toyota and Mercedes have also invested in the company now so it is not going away any time soon, and with small production runs, the demand exceeds the supply for the moment. They are already sold out for a year on the Model S, and that is before they have put one in a customer's hands. People that don't refer to income at all seem to like this company.

Most people that own a Tesla now support an idea - that electric cars are a better way to get around. That is all Tesla does, unlike the other companies that are selling hybrids or BEV's, yet still have a foot in the oil industries well of wealth. If you want or expect all the perks of a major auto maker, you have to accept what they offer, which is something less at the moment. Tesla is the only EV maker that wants to see someone else make something as good or better, but they are a limited production product so if you buy one, you accept that part of the bargain.

I wouldn't say they have changed stratagies at all, in fact I would say they are right on schedule. I have never spent that much (50K) money on a car, and likely never will. I will buy stock right now. Once they have made the model S for a while, they plan to switch to the economy model for the average commuter to buy. I believe the "plan" is working well, with a Leaf in my garage, and friends very seriously planning on buying both Tesla's and Nissan Leaf's. It would not suprise me if the economy model of Tesla will be made by a new owner of the company - not sure Elon ever really wanted to run a car company, he just didn't see any other choice.

 

[surfingslovak]

Not sure if you are aware of Tesla's plan, or what they are all about to start with. I have a far different view of them, perhaps a bit over the top, but I am an idealist.

Interesting perspective, thank you for sharing that. I have some personal ties to Tesla, and although I have heard something similar, I didn't see it from this angle. Thanks again.

 

[TEG]

Tesla just did a conversion, using an external drivetrain supplier, external battery suppplier and an external glider supplier...

I don't think that is a fair statement. They may have proof-of-concept-ed using AC-propulsion components in an Elise mule, but then went about changing almost everything including completely redesigning all the drive-train components.
I think they started with the best they could find, and then went and re-engineered the motor, inverter, etc.
They made a huge leap when they switched from analog inverter control to a digital system.

Yes, there is a good amount of Lotus DNA left in the Roadster, but Model S seems to be much closer to a complete "clean slate" design all of Tesla's own creation.

 

[evnow]

Yes, there is a good amount of Lotus DNA left in the Roadster, but Model S seems to be much closer to a complete "clean slate" design all of Tesla's own creation.

True - but that took some time. The question was around time to market difference between Leaf and Roadster.

 

[evnow]

So the Tesla's actual "ideal range" is 128 / 184 / 240 mi - and EPA numbers in regular mode: 90 / 150 / 192 mi. Still a lot better than the LEAF's 80%/100% 59 / 73 mi EPA ranges, but at least Nissan doesn't seem to worry about 100% charging unless you let it sit that way for a long time.

I'd lease the car and range charge in winter.

But, it looks like a lot of people take those numbers literally and expect to get 300 miles driving on highway at high speeds.

 

[cwerdna]

Not sure if you are aware of Tesla's plan, or what they are all about to start with. I have a far different view of them, perhaps a bit over the top, but I am an idealist.

Interesting perspective, thank you for sharing that. I have some personal ties to Tesla, and although I have heard something similar, I didn't see it from this angle. Thanks again.

Although I don't follow Tesla's company news nor financials closely and don't intend to buy their stock, as a reminder, the documentary I posted about at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6022" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was insightful. You can watch it online.

Yes, prior to their IPO, Musk himself had injected a LOT of his own money into the company to keep it afloat.

As much as I'd like them to survive and thrive, my opinion is that their long-term survival as an independent company is doubtful. Either they go under or they get bought out by someone...

Just glance at their financials at http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=TSLA+Income+Statement&annual" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=TSLA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Roadsters are almost done w/no more gliders coming from Lotus. They've been opening up stores/locations like crazy (http://www.teslamotors.com/buy/stores" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. Can they sustain themselves on the revenues they're going to take in from sales, licensing and work from other automakers?

Time will tell whether I'm right or wrong.

 

[Caracalover]

Time will tell whether I'm right or wrong.

As with any bet you make in the market place. At least the money I may lose will have gone toward something I believe strongly in. My hope is they will eventually sell out, and become a branch of Nissan at a high dollar exchange rate.

 

[Caracalover]

Yes, there is a good amount of Lotus DNA left in the Roadster, but Model S seems to be much closer to a complete "clean slate" design all of Tesla's own creation.

True - but that took some time. The question was around time to market difference between Leaf and Roadster.

There was no question, just statements about both companies. This is not a debate, the facts speak for themselves. The fact I said Tesla is a leader, which you dispute, and I disagree with you. That is ok, since I also see Nissan as a leader, just one that is following where Tesla has already gone.

 

[evnow]

There was no question, just statements about both companies. This is not a debate, the facts speak for themselves. The fact I said Tesla is a leader, which you dispute, and I disagree with you. That is ok, since I also see Nissan as a leader, just one that is following where Tesla has already gone.

Well, everyone has a right to their opinion but not their own facts. If you chose to ignore facts, so be it.

Afterall you "disagree" without giving any reasons.

 

[evnow]

That extra 10K or 20K doesn't just buy me 70 or 140 more miles, it buys me not giving a 'horses-patoot' on what my driving style is, or how far I have to go. At 160 miles, or as you say 115ish EPA, it is still going to be on my mind.

I think it depends on the city you live in. For me - almost everything we go to is 60 miles or less, RT. I can make that 60 mile trip in Leaf in summer without bothering to even look at the SOC meter - but in winter it starts getting close. I just need 20 miles or so of cushion.

 

[Ready2plugin]

That extra 10K or 20K doesn't just buy me 70 or 140 more miles, it buys me not giving a 'horses-patoot' on what my driving style is, or how far I have to go. At 160 miles, or as you say 115ish EPA, it is still going to be on my mind.

I think it depends on the city you live in. For me - almost everything we go to is 60 miles or less, RT. I can make that 60 mile trip in Leaf in summer without bothering to even look at the SOC meter - but in winter it starts getting close. I just need 20 miles or so of cushion.

I'm in the 60 mile roundtrip camp as well, so the LEAF is fine with me. In CA you also have the tax issue on the additional expense, the insurance cost as well the registration fees based on the higher dollar amount of the Tesla. I almost waited for the S to come out before getting my LEAF, but after almost one year of driving gas-free, the feeling is still "priceless".... I plan on keeping my LEAF for at least 7 years, so we will see what is "affordable" then.

 

[TEG]

Yes, there is a good amount of Lotus DNA left in the Roadster, but Model S seems to be much closer to a complete "clean slate" design all of Tesla's own creation.

True - but that took some time. The question was around time to market difference between Leaf and Roadster.

Well, when Roadster was announced, and plans stated to do sedan and future models, many of us did say "what is to stop a big auto maker from throwing money and scores of engineers at this marketplace and eat Tesla's lunch if they want?" When Tesla started to attract a lot of attention it seemed only a matter of time, but I wouldn't have predicted that Nissan would be the one to really jump in with both feet like they did. Tesla has gown and evolved now - so they are in a better position to compete more "head to head" with the industry giants.

From some perspective, all the "competition" is good as it validates the overall concept, and will get more people to "make the switch" and decide that plug-in vehicles (including pure BEVs) are "mainstream" and "accepted."

It will be interesting to see how future Infiniti EV sedans end up being compared and "cross-shopped" to future Tesla "blue-star" sedans...

Tesla is certainly "setting the bar" when it comes to acceleration performance.

 

[evnow]

Tesla is certainly "setting the bar" when it comes to acceleration performance.

Ofcourse, Tesla has done several things
- It got many OEMs (including famously Lutz's GM) interested in EVs again
- It proved that long range EV is possible using laptop batteries
- It proved that it was possible to get stock market interested in new car companies

Depending on how Model S turns out
- It may prove that it is possible to make a luxury EV for about the same price as a luxury ICE

It would be interesting to see what ESFlow can do - if it ever gets produced - in terms of performance.

 

[N952JL]

So why wasn't it brought to market until after the Roadster had been on the road for a year?

For perspective, consider:

The Tesla roadster is a BEV conversion of a Lotus-built ICEV design.

Nissan builds more BEVs each month, than Tesla has in it's entire existence.

I wish Tesla luck in the launch of it's first unique car design- the S.

And I think it may need it...

While they may need the luck, you must remember the Leaf is a BEV conversion of the Nissan Versa. Lotus, modified the vehicle to fit Tesla's design. The Lotus was the lightest sport car design that would match and Lotus was willing to work with them. And last, we too had to pay a deposit and wait over a year (for me 20 months) for the Leaf.

I leased my Leaf because that was the best way to use the 7.5K federal tax credit and I want to see what is available in 39 months. I had hoped the S car might be it, until everyone told me how large the car is. I'm not interested in Full Size. I want something smaller. Right now I hope Nissan will build the ESFLOW, and improve the range to 210 interstate miles @65 (would love 70). That and QC or a Range Extender would suit me fine.

For me the sweet spot is 300, as that would get me to St. Augustine to visit family. I might have to stop for an hr recharge at 6.6 kW just to be safe.

 

[evnow]

While they may need the luck, you must remember the Leaf is a BEV conversion of the Nissan Versa.

That's a myth that has been debunked a number of times.

 

[GPowers]

I will add a photos from the Tour march of 2011

More photos here of both the roster and the Model S

https://picasaweb.google.com/113009259296262344499/TeslaModelS#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like you can get a decent Model S for around $64K before tax incentives.

 

[evnow]

More photos here of both the roster and the Model S

https://picasaweb.google.com/113009259296262344499/TeslaModelS#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looks like you can get a decent Model S for around $64K before tax incentives.

Thanks for the photos. I'm looking forward to taking a look at it soon - it is coming to the Bellevue store tomorrow.

Looks like the tech package is a must , I don't plan to take anything else. If they add the QC option back to the 160 miler - it would be a great car for us (well, I'd have preferred it to be in D segment, rather than E).